Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was wondering if my monitor is a good size for just a little over two feet. Thats a 106 Quart sterilite container and 18 in. tongs.
Thanks

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Josh Delaney

Delaney Colubrids

looks like a gorgeous, healthy animal. keep up the good work!

Hey Josh!
I see she's turning darker, 'eh? Still pretty, though.

Looks good & healthy, a tad plump but not much. Now is the time to start keeping an eye on it's girth and making adjustments where necessary (number of prey per feeding, and/or number of feedings per week, and/or temps, exercise, etc...).

Catch ya later!
Mike
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

“Looks good & healthy, a tad plump but not much. Now is the time to start keeping an eye on it's girth and making adjustments where necessary (number of prey per feeding, and/or number of feedings per week, and/or temps, exercise, etc...).”

Sup Mike – my first inclination would be to disagree a bit with that last statement in parenthesis. Though the amount fed certainly must have an impact on monitor obesity, I have experienced (in my relatively tiny bit of experience) that it is primarily temps that dictate obesity and set the tone for a young monitors adult life. More specifically, feed a young monitor all they want whenever they want…but be sure to provide the appropriate temp ranges (primarily the high surface temp for basking with a 70-85 F ambient variant or whatever – I rarely measure temps). I have seen young savs not fed nearly enough that are obese (the common ‘toad monitor’ syndrome often seen with poorly kept savs) because they are not provided an adequate environment. As for exercise…I know you didn’t mean it this way, but that seems to imply that something extraneous must be done to ensure they ‘hit the gym’ so to speak…when in reality I have found if you ‘heat em and feed em’ they move plenty on their own – at around 200 mph hahaha.

Just some thoughts…later

Tom

Hi Tom!

> > > ...the common ‘toad monitor’ syndrome...

Hahaha!!! I don't think I've heard that one before. Good one!

I can see where you disagree with the adjustments I mentioned. I agree that temperatures, which manipulate metabolism, is the ultimate factor. I didn't mean for my list to be taken in order but I can see how it could be.

FR's "Heat 'em and feed 'em" phrase has to be true because so many people have posted good results, not to mention Frank's years of experience with it. And it sounds like you've got years of experience with it as well, and I know you were here when I first came to learn about monitors a few years ago.

I believe that savannah monitors are the most obese monitors among captives. They're the cheapest and most common among new monitor keepers. We also see niles among new keepers but don't see as many fat ones so I wonder how much of a factor is the savannah monitor, itself.

I have 1 nile and 3 savs. One sav was obese when I got her so I'll exclude her for a minute. Three different setups (2 savs, 1 nile) all beginning with the typical suggested temp/humidity settings and burrowable substrate with temps adjusted by the monitor's use & actions.

My nile is a prime example of "heat 'em & feed 'em." It can eat all it wants and maintain good size/health, without getting fat. The two savs are a different story. One was perfect size for a 2ft fresh w/c when I got it. Fed strictly a rodent diet (which could very well be a factor and I'll get into that later) I've struggled to keep it from getting fat. Regardless of the setup adjustments I made he would start to get fat & I had to adjust my feeding technique. It hasn't grown at record speeds but he's growing and is good & healthy, not fat at all.

My other sav was a baby (7 - 8 inches) when I got her a few months ago. For the most part she has done well with "heat 'em & feed 'em" with constant access to food (Crickets, superworms, mice/rats. Mostly rat pups). However, just the other day she ate two good size rat pups at one feeding and didn't eat again for over a day, mostly staying burrowed, basking a few minutes at a time. The two rats stretched her skin quite a bit and it's still a little loose, and she is also a lil' plump, which she hasn't been before.

Most will automatically assume setup, temps. In fact, I think I would if I were to be reading this posted by someone else. And it may very well be, I'm trying to find out firsthand. But I can't bring myself to just making setup/temperature adjustments without altering feeding.

I do know that once savs get fat is awfully hard to get 'em back into good health considering the damage that obesity causes. I can say from experience not to completely withold food for long periods of a time. Been there, done that. My 2ft male got fairly fat once and I tried reducing intake and adjusting setup without results so I witheld food for nearly 2 months. BAD IDEA!!! Those of you reading in the background, learn from my mistake. It stressed him out so much that he developed an abscess on his back. I think we're out of the woods on that one because it came back once but hasn't come back within the last several months.

Obesity in savs could be due to an all-rodent diet, which they don't have in the wild. It's said that they very rarely eat rodents in the wild, they eat giant crickets, scorpions, millipedes, etc... Unfortunately, it would cost an arm & a leg to feed them strictly exoskeletons, insectovores, in captivity.

So, here I sit & ponder as I explore my personal experiences. Does "heat 'em & feed 'em" apply across the board in the varanid world, even to savannah monitors? In general, I'm inclined to say, "Yes, it does," but I wonder to what extent. While I try to adhere to the "heat 'em & feed 'em" strategy I find myself having to make other adjustments along the way to help keep the fat off of 'em. That's where I was coming from with the "(number of prey per feeding, and/or number of feedings per week, and/or temps, exercise, etc...)" comments.

> > > As for exercise…I know you didn’t mean it this way, but that seems to imply that something extraneous must be done to ensure they ‘hit the gym’ so to speak.

What? You don't have a treadmill & weight bench in any of your monitors' cages? Hahaha!!!

Tom, you pretty well clarified what all I was trying to say in my unusually brief reply. Ha! As for the "exercise" part, I was referring to burrowable substrate, which, from the looks of Josh's monitor, it doesn't appear that it's kept on a dirt/soil substrate which seems to make for the best exercise. That and cage furniture to climb on.

And Josh, I'm not harping on you in any way, just making observations & trying to help keep your sav in good health. That's all.

Take care!
Mike
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

I was just giving him a bath and helping get his skin off anyway I keep him on Zilla Walnut bedding And I feed him outside of his cage Basking temp is 120 and ambient temp is 75-80. Comments
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Josh Delaney

Delaney Colubrids

Hi Josh –

Hmmm I highly recommend you do a search for everything FR has written here. Great information, you’ll laugh and he has more varanid husbandry applied knowledge (meaning experience) than anyone else I have heard of. Read through, check out Pro Exotics site and read that…then take another look at your entire set-up.

Good luck –

Tom

Hi Josh!
The main thing about your temps is how they're used by your monitor. That's a good starting point and may well be just what your monitor utilizes the most, just keep in mind that the suggested setup temperatures are a "starting point" that should be adjusted as your monitor indicates.

For example: If your monitor basks in the basking spot for long periods at a time you may need to increase basking temp. Etc...

As for substrate, you want something that is useable to your monitor. Savannah monitors spend a lot of their time in burrows, or will if given the chance.

As for feeding outside of the enclosure, ha, we've been there before, 'eh? Hahaha!!! You have your beliefs and I have mine, neither of which makes either one of us bad guys.

I feed all of my animals, including snakes and monitors, in their enclosures. If I'm concerned about substrate ingestion I change the substrate, not feeding habits. Yes, I've done that once with an adopted habitat & reptile on crushed walnut shells, only it was ball python, not a monitor.

You're seeking input, and that's great. We all should do it every now & then to keep ourselves in check. I suggest stating your reasons for feeding outside of it's enclosure and let other people share their opinions, experience, with you. I'll back out of the picture unless you ask me specifically. I don't want to hinder you in any way.

Your monitor does look good, though. How old is it now?

Take care!
Mike
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

i have no clue why he feeds his monitor outside of his cage, but it's a common misconception that feeding a monitor outside of the cage will make it calmer, e.g. more tame. i've had psychotic monitors and i've had very calm and easy to handle monitors, all fed inside their inclosure.

about the sav thing, i raised a savannah for 4 years, fed primarily bugs, given a huge temp range, and places to burrow. it was never obese or inactive. people would come to my house and say "that's the most active savannah i've ever seen"...people who've been in the hobby for 20 years. the sav would get rodents once or twice a week, but bugs daily. night crawlers, super worms, roaches, crickets, big beetles, tomato worms, etc etc. and when i could get my hands on them, other reptiles.

and to answer the possible question of "what do you mean, 'had'? if you had all these monitors and did so well with them, why don't you have them still?" i ran into money problems and was forced to move into a smaller place and downsize all of my collection to just my rhino iguana. i'm talking a tiny, itty-bitty living area. now, a few years later, i'm back in a better living situation again and now have some animals again anyways, i typed a bit more than i planned. sorry 'bout that.

> > > and to answer the possible question of "what do you mean, 'had'?...

Ha! Ha! I can tell you've been around here for awhile.

Thanks for sharing your sav success story. I've heard a few but you know there's not many.

As long as keepers are dead-set on doing things the way they're doing them without even listening & considering other people's input, it's not going to change anytime soon. Sometimes I wonder why some even read forums.

As for the misconception you mentioned, yeah, it's all too common. I've seen several forums where that's the prevailing advice. I'll withold other comments for the moment but anyone can read the previous paragraph again, now.

Take care!
Mike
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

You know that is a great point…varanids most surely have different reactions to conditions. I must admit there sure is a helluva lot of toad monitor savs and almost all poorly kept niles I see are not fat - just insane, skinny and then more insane.

I have never personally raised a sav to notice a difference between them and my monitors, so I should keep quiet lol.

Wait, I did feed one to a large blackthroat once…does that count?? hahaha.

Take care –

Tom

> > > ...almost all poorly kept niles I see are not fat - just insane, skinny and then more insane.

Haha! Man, mine's ballistic! Woohoo! So much so that I call it "VN" - short for Vile Nile. Hahaha!!!

Heck, Tom, you could be dead right about the effects of temps with savs, and because of it's popularity it's the belief that I try to keep as my base. I could be doing too much micro-managing. Ha! You know how that goes & how easy it is to get off on doing that. I'm exploring, experimenting, and hope to one day be for certain on something or another.

I'd love to hear from those that have raised non-fat savannah monitors. Frank may have quite a bit of experience with them, I don't know. I've just not seen him talk much about keeping 'em though I think he's got at least one that he's had for awhile. Anyone with an opinion feel free to chime in. Ravi Thakoordyal?

Later tater!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Hi

Just to add my two cents to this discussion....

Keeping savannahs healthy is not hard if you are familiar with basic husbandry requirements.

It's been stated a few times in this thread that providing a range of temperatures in important. Of course no one who knows what they are doing will argue that.

This problem is not one that 'experienced' keepers (if I may use that term) usually have to deal with because they understand what it means to provide a range of temperatures. This simply cannot be done in a tiny cage. A tiny cage (for a sav) is what most keepers are able to provide. Let's face it, at $25 a pop most of the people buying savs are young and don't have resources required to properly provide for the animal.

So you can see that the problem of preventing obesity is more than what you feed and how often you feed it.

When you give them access to different temperatures, space to roam, and a reason to move other than trying to escape a death trap of a cage they will not as easily succumb to obesity.

In my experience I have never seem anyone take an obese sav and turn it around. Maybe someone else out there has seen it. I would be interested in knowing what the regimen was. Savs, like all monitors will store fat in the tails (especially females). This fat store is not a problem. When they start to develop unhealthy fat stores in the body this becomes a problem. I have cut open a few fat dead savs and was shocked at the mass of these fat bodies. I don't see any amount of exercise being able to reduce them.

Anyway, I've rambled on enough.

Cheers,
--Ravi--

The Monitor Spot

Thanks for sharing your input with us, Ravi.

Unfortunately, my current setups fall within the "small cage" category and I've been working on that for some time now, as time permits, but I think it's time that I start TAKING more time & "git 'er done!"

Have a good one!
Mike
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Hello Ravi

I find these monitors much too specialised for the average Joe, not only because of diet, but mostly because they have a narow temp gradient, a little too low and they go in preservation mode, a little to hot and again its preservation mode, most other varanids will burn all fat reserves at higher temps.

we also feed them way too much rodents, this type of protien has letines witch act 2 ways in the blood systhem, fist its a magnet for fat, secondly it bonds it together like cement, this make it almost imposible to metabolise fatty bodies as a monitor normaly does in times of starvation.

red meat is the worst meat for monitors, chicken and rats are next on the bad protien foods, however some monitors have evolved the rite metabolism for these foods (salvator, salvadorii, varius, komodo, gigenteuse,) however in my opinion these would be better off on mice in captivity.

just my opinion