Reptile & Amphibian Forums

CAn anyone give me some insight into the phases? What do you think?

They both look normal as far as the color phase, though the bottom one might be a hypo.

As far as pattern, the top one is an Aztec.

The bottom one looks like a Sunspot, though is has some striping on it's neck, so it make be a combination of two patterns.

They're both pretty cool!

Tim

Third Eye

I've had ones exactly like the top one, but with a really light colored head, and they all turned out really light colored.
They proved out hypo, so I would pay close attention to the head coloration compared to the body.

Oh, it looks like you got one hypo, maybe 2....
The newer kinds of hypo are wierd in how they manifest themselves, it's kinda cool to watch them change colors right before your eyes....
I got a soft spot for motley hypos, fine snakes. Congrats.

The aztec pattern snake looks like mine which are het lavender.

The top one is an aztec, as others have said. The bottom one is a striped corn. If you breed that to a striped corn, you'll get all striped progeny (of one variation or another). Because there are dorsal markings posterior to the neck striping, many people think they're motlies, but they're not. Many striped corns have traces of markings like this, but the one you have there is a good example of mismarks becoming desirable. If you just had one or two of those dorsal spots after the stripe, it would be considered an inferior example of a striped corn. Since yours has many of those spots, it's desirable AND somewhat of a "tweener" by name. It's in-between the SUNSPOT pattern and the CUBED patterns. Most (if not all) of the so-called "cubed motlies" are actually not motlies. They are in fact aberrant striped corns. The original namer of the ones like yours (with the oval dorsal spots), named them sunspots, but I think the name was linked to ones with red eyes. Hence SUNspot denoting the orange coloration. If I'm wrong and the name is being applied to the pattern only, they may have to rethink that name SUNSPOT, since an anery wouldn't look very sunshiny. SUNSHINY? Is that a word???

I believe breeding trials are under way to determine the genetic heritability of this pattern "morph". These generally do not have a high degree of predictability, regarding pattern-reproducibility, so I do not believe this oval/cubed pattern is recessive (outside the simple recessive striped mutation). Therefore, I think it's a variation of the striped mutation, but if someone has evidence otherwise, let me know.

Don
www.cornsnake.NET

South Mountain Reptiles

Don, It sound like you are saying that if a snake has any striping, then it is classified as a stripe, not a motley. Is that right?

I am curious because I recently got a pair of 07 hatchlings. The male is a ghost stripe. The female is hypo, het for anery, and motley or stripe. If I plug them into Micks Cornsnake Progeny Predictor, and call her het for motley, it says I will get (phenotypes) 25% ghost striped motley, 25% hypo striped motley, 25% ghost, 25% hypo.

I am not sure why it calls them striped motley if any striping makes it a striped. Is it just semantics?

This is a pic of them, but its too bright so the ghost stripe looks washed out.

Thanks for your time.

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Kent

Don, It sound like you are saying that if a snake has any striping, then it is classified as a stripe, not a motley. Is that right?

MOTLEY AND STRIPE SHARE THE SAME LOCUS. THE EVIDENCE IS THAT IF YOU BREED A MOTLEY TO A MOTLEY, YOU GET MOTLIES. STRIPE X STRIPE = STRIPE. STRIPE X MOTLEY = VARIATIONS OF MOTLEY (MOSTLY STRIPED MOTLEY). STRIPED MOTLEY X STRIPED MOTLEY or STRIPE = MOTLIES, STRIPED MOTLIES, AND STRIPES (IF THE STRIPED MOTLEY IS HET FOR STRIPE (and they usually are). HET FOR STRIPE X HET FOR STRIPE = NO MOTLIES. IT IS NOT A GIVEN THAT ANY STRIPED MOTLEY IS HET FOR STRIPE. I'VE SEEN MOTLIES THAT HAD NO STRIPE ON THEM, THAT PRODUCED PERFECTLY STRIPED SNAKES. LIKEWISE, I'VE SEEN STRIPED MOTLIES THAT DID NOT PRODUCE STRIPES, WHEN BRED TO STRIPED CORNS (rare).

I am curious because I recently got a pair of 07 hatchlings. The male is a ghost stripe. The female is hypo, het for anery, and motley or stripe. If I plug them into Micks Cornsnake Progeny Predictor, and call her het for motley, it says I will get (phenotypes) 25% ghost striped motley, 25% hypo striped motley, 25% ghost, 25% hypo.

THAT PREDICTION IS ACCURATE.

I am not sure why it calls them striped motley if any striping makes it a striped. Is it just semantics?

STRIPED CORNS ARE DEFINITELY NOT MOTLIES. NOT BY NAME or GENETICS. ARE THEY RELATED? "YES", BUT MOTLIES ARE MOTLIES, STRIPED MOTLIES ARE STRIPED MOTLIES AND STRIPED CORNS ARE STRIPED CORNS.

This is a pic of them, but its too bright so the ghost stripe looks washed out.

IT IS IMPORTANT THAT PEOPLE REALIZE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN STRIPED CORNS AND STRIPED MOTLEY CORNS. WHAT DO YOU SEE HERE?

South Mountain Reptiles

The lighter snake is a striped. Its stripes start on its head, and are narrower. The darker snake's stripes don't appear to start on its head, and its stripes are wider, so I think it must be a striped motley.

Did I pass the test?
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Kent

I still am a little confused. In your response to BoaFanatix above, you say that the second snake is a striped. Why do you call it a striped, and not a striped motley?
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Kent

Well, first of all, you can see they are not alike. The location and width of the stripes are not the same. Since these two criteria exist in virtually all comparisons of the two, they are distinct.

By virtue of not being able to get ALL striped corns from breeding a striped to a striped motley, the two are not the same thing. Breed an albino to an albino and you get all albinos. Normal to normal = all normals. Albino to normal = all normals. Albino to het for albino = albinos and normals. NOW, motley stripe X stripe (most of the time) results in striped corns and motley variations (usually striped motlies). Hence, striped motlies are not striped corns. Not by looks or genetics. Related? Yes, but not exactly the same.

Don
South Mountain Reptiles

In my question I am not refering to the picture you sent of the 2 snakes. I can see the diffence in them, on one on the right being a striped, and the other being a striped motley (I think!).

I am refering to Boafanatix' second pic, a snake with striping on its neck, then spots on the lower parts of its body. I think you said it was a striped. But by what you told me, it would be a striped motley.

True?
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Kent

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh. Sorry.

Look at the width and location of the stripes on the neck. No way that can be a motley. That AND the fact that I have seen thousands of striped corn with oval to rectangular markings on them. Never a motley with those markings.

Don
South Mountain Reptiles

I think I've got it now. And I know who to ask if I ever have questions.

Thanks.
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Kent

If this proved out and more were created with this look would they deserve they're own name or would aberrant stripe be more appropriate?

Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Tom,

The terms striped and motley are reserved for animals that are actually recessive mutations. I know you knew that. If you trick'd out a Ford to look like a Chevy, you wouldn't call it a Chevy. Even though your snake has pseudo-striping, it would be wrong to call it a striped corn.

I agree with calling it something with the name stripe in it. Just like the "broad-striped zig zag" corns. You will see some of those if you continue to promote the looks of this snake.

I suspect it will take a very long time for you to perfect the striping in your family of those albinos. Being that it is not recessive, it is highly variable and unpredictable. Once you get some specimens that are almost completely striped and breed them together, you will start to see more of the target look, but I guarantee it will take time, patience, and frustration to get there. You have a good start there, since this one has a high percentage of the aberrant look you seek.

You and I have talked about bad names for morphs. I hope you wait a few generations before putting a name on this. For all you know, you may never get another one like this. Hence, for now, please, call it aberrant striped (or something along those lines).

Don
South Mountain Reptiles

Sure, seeing I have a long way to go to even see anything produced from this male there's not much point in coining a name for it. For now I call it The Striped Aztec with a stress on the "the" meaning there's only one.
What will really get me going is if next season the parents of this guy throw another one like it. I am not holding my breath though. you never know....
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

AWESOME pics Don, those snakes are hot!
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Those are some cool-looking snakes, Don!