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Responding to BGF's call for comments (see post below),
I make the following remarks in terms of his recent paper on colubrid venoms and the over-the-top and unncessessary legal implications he has sought to create.
There is little doubt that the carefully crafted media releases by Fry himself in relation to his latest (badly written) paper will create yet more headaches for private keepers of reptiles.
This will have no discernable impact on either WW or BGF both of whom are professioanlly employed at government institutions, but will serve to eliminate their "competition" who don't rely on government handouts.
Below I quote from Fry's media release and no doubt many keepers across the USA, and Europe will suffer the fallout from this in terms of tougher laws in years to come.
Remember to thank BGF and WW for their contribution to them.
Taking a look at BGF's media release at:
http://www.sciencenow.org.au/fresh/fry.htm
is enough to send shockwaves through the herp community.
Fry says:"My research now shows that the vast majority of the snakes commonly kept as pets are actually venomous."
and
"the discovery will cause shockwaves and a legislative storm in the United States and Europe."and
"However, this dark storm cloud over the pet trade actually has a silver lining – a new resource for biotechnology. The ratsnake venom is an excellent candidate for use as a laboratory tool or even as a scaffold for use in drug design and development."
End quotes - Oh well, it seems that snake keepers are in strife, but BGF will be certain to get his next hand out from the gov't.

Crappy laws and bureaucratic mismanagement - Tthe Australian Experience...

Are you serious? Do you really think that tons on new laws will come thundering down on herpers because BGF, WW and others do and continue to do research about venoms? If so, you're missing the point. There is DIFFERENCE between venomous and dangerously venomous to humans. Here in Tennessee, our F&G dept. tried to ban false water cobras...based on ONE reported serious bite....IN ANOTHER COUNTRY even....who was one of the first to defend us...BGF! He took the time to research the actual case, it turns out it wasn't even by the species they claimed. He frequents this forum, he has proven himself to be a "stand-up" guy regarding attempted bans and laws on many occasions, and who cares where or who he works for. If I had his qualifications, I'd be doing the same thing. He is not for a ban on reptiles, even venomous ones, and the work he and others have done has helped the herp community on many occasions. I live in one of the most strict states with regards to herp laws...am I worried that rat snakes are now going to make the "class 1" prohibited list? No. You can be sure that if there was a possibility TN's F&G dept would consider changing laws based on his research, he'd be the first in line to defend us. If you've followed this forum for any length of time, you'd notice that we have about 80% "smoke blowers"....they rant & rave, but thats all they do. There are exceptions, and BGF is one of them. With the current status of herp regulations, we, as a herp community, NEED professional people like BGF, WW, and others to be on our side. Positive, public education and exposure will win many more battles than
rants and cuts. We all have differences, but lets all try and shoot for the same general goals. ECO

Very well put, ECO, very well put! This is the correct thinking that is needed to solve the political riddles that are presented to us. ~Bill~

A few soothing comments from Fry's mates on Kingsnake will do nothing to retract the immense damage caused by his false and misleading comments via the mainstream media.
Fry and WW are like lawyers. They claim to be friends, but screw you all the way.
But rather than take my word for it, I'll leave you with some of Fry's own words from the ABC's site, taken from another kingsnake correspondent:
quote from AUSTRALIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION
"The ratsnake, which is commonly sold in pet stores around the world, contained the same toxins as a cobra or death adder, and the toxins were just as potent."

To me this sounds like a ratsnake could be deadly. Too bad the press left out the part about the minute quantities of toxins they produce and how harmlees ratsnakes are to man.

quote from Mr. Fry
3. "This has the potential to seriously screw up the pet trade"

What//!!?? Why would this seriously screw up the pet trade? The very few Colubrids that are capable of severe systemic envenomation are rarely kept or sold in the pet trade.

I think the above quote from M5 (see details below) is closer to the reality of what problems Fry's silly media releases will cause.
Defence of Fry by his mates on Kingsnake will not undo the damage and none of this has anything to do with the alleged science in his paper!
http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=142447,142897

Quotes above were from:
RE: Extreme science - or is it an extreme interpretation

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Posted by: M5 at Sun Aug 24 01:53:25 2003 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

Ray,
I don't know you, but you come across like an intelligent, although angry person. I thought about picking your post apart piece by piece, but that wouldn't do anything except fan the flames, which seems to be the way the herp community runs itself lately. I will give you some credit. You unknowingly (or possibly knowing but not admitting to it...) HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD!!! Allow me to quote you...

"To me this sounds like a ratsnake could be deadly. Too bad the press left out the part about the minute quantities of toxins they produce and how harmlees ratsnakes are to man."

Let me guess...this is the FIRST TIME you've been aware that the press selects bits & pieces of the WHOLE story while leaving out the important disclaimers or clarifications?

"This has the potential to seriously screw up the pet trade. What//!!?? Why would this seriously screw up the pet trade? The very few Colubrids that are capable of severe systemic envenomation are rarely kept or sold in the pet trade."

Yes it does, but I don't think it will. Again, MIS-information resulting from the incomplete story has the POTENTIAL to seriously screw up ANYTHING. Consider the quote by Melissa K about reptile ownership...only the quote, and not the context of the quote was printed...again, blame the press.

"A few soothing comments from Fry's mates on Kingsnake will do nothing to retract the immense damage caused by his false and misleading comments via the mainstream media.
Fry and WW are like lawyers. They claim to be friends, but screw you all the way."

Is it really his fault that the media didn't print the "fine print"? If you think it's so easy to get exactly what you say, the WHOLE story from your side into the media, maybe you should be the PR person for the next herp organization...as long as we get to fire you after the press edits you comments to save space for the latest sports scores. With regards to the lawyer reference, I've said it before.....the herp community NEEDS positive people in the spotlight, heaven knows we have enough negative people there already. In BGF, (and I've never met him) we have someone who's life work is related to several aspects of herps. He may not give a rats a$$ about the difference in substrate choices for Nerodia, but his work is PUBLIC, and presents the opportunity to EDUCATE the mainstream...the same mainstream who might otherwise join the "ban"wagon or purposely swerve to hit a snake.

Don't blame BGF or WW and others, if you must vent your anger, vent it in the right direction...the press. IMO.....ECO

Er,
Brian Fry wrote the media release with all the misinformation.
Me thinks he should have known that the media would quote only from that and not looked at the alleged "fine print".
All the best

Ray with your ability to selectively report, you would excellent as a National Enquirer reporter.

The press release clearly states:

“My research now shows that the vast majority of the snakes commonly kept as pets are actually venomous. Are all these species dangerous? Certainly not,”

What part of that don't you understand?
Bryan

Does non-alcoholic beer have alcohol? Yep. Does it have enough to get you drunk? Nope. Do colubrids produce toxins? Yep. Are all dangerous? Nope.
What's so hard to understand? Damn Bryan, what's the vandetta some of these guys has against you? See what having a PHD will do? Brings more jealousy.
-tom

Nah, full strength beer mate... just served in a bloody saki cup.

Cheers
B

Guys,
I've read both of your posts. I never saw the actual article, just the quotes as you were discussing them. If ABC did infact misquote Mr. Fry or incompletely quote him, shame on them. It isn't Frys' fault. If however he did submit a written article, doesn't he have full control over what gets printed? IF! IF the latter is the case, it looks to me like someone with alot of credibility stated that ratsnakes are indeed very dangerous. Once again I never saw the actual article, or the publication for that matter. Also I myself have never submitted an article, and have no idea if it would get editted once submitted. Either way the article doesn't sound benign. Don't you know HSUS and PETA would love to get a hold of that article and run with it like there is no tomorrow. If ratsnakes do infact have that neurotoxin, however minute, that's not a piece of information that is crying to be printed in a publication. That's information for a herp book to be stated very completely. Anyway didn't mean to rant, but the quotes do raise some concerns that shouldn't be overlooked. My .002 cents. Alan,

I checked ABCs website and couldn't find the article. I apologize if I spoke without getting all the facts. Later.

Hi mate

Here is the link to the paper and the article written by the ABC

http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s927762.htm

Cheers
B
Snake venom paper

.