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I just saw an ad for a striped ratsnake,sometimes called a blotchless ratsnake?Does anyone know what this is? Thanks!, Jeff

The blotchless morph in Pantherophis obsoletus (also known as 'striped' or 'patternless') is very much like the striped mutant morphs in Pantherophis guttatus, Pituophis catenifer, Elaphe climacophora, Elaphe dione, and such. It's a recessively inheritable trait. The trait should not be confused with the striped pattern in adult Yellow Ratsnakes. Yellow Ratsnakes are blotched as juveniles, the pattern gradually transforming into four longitudinal stripes as the snakes matures. Blotchless snakes on the other hand, are striped from day one. Anyway, if it's the '6 foot blotchless ratsnake' you are refering to, I'll have to say I have my doubts. To me it looks like just a very dark Yellow Ratsnake, most likely somewhere from the northern most part of it's range, possibly with some Black Ratsnake influence (often referred to as 'Greenish Ratsnake').

Thanks for the reply and yes that's the one I was referring to!It just looks "hybridish"(if that's a word) to me. Jeff

Wow, I think this might be a first... I agree with Herman 100%. Nice post BTW.

(But to nitpick I'd just call it a dark yellow rat and not a greenish, but what the hey. We have to disagree about something I guess.)

dg

Dwight,...LOL!

Remember we talked about those awesome orange ones you had that were introduced to rossalleni lineage, and the "Bubble Gums" too?..LOL...that's funny!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Thanx. Actually, I expected to get crucified on this one...

This is what lives in my area. I am in the northern limits of the yellow rat snake and the southeastern limits of the black rat's range. In fact, I have not seen one of either in a number of years. This snake has the lines but not dorsal blotches, so perhaps it has more yellow rat influence. Looks alot like the "striped" one in the classifieds. Would anyone call this a greenish?

Yes, that is EXACTLY what that is known as, although it is "technically" a naturally occurring intergrade of quadrivittata and obsoleta where their two ranges overlap.

That's a nice example of "Greenish" by the way!, thanks for posting the pic.

Also, as one might think, individuals can often have a little more percentage of one or the other ssp. gene-flow depending on their geography.

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

OK, How do you know that it is an intergrade? The post didn't say exactly where the snake was found. Yellow Rats seem to get darker in their range as you move north. Why assume "intergrade"? Why not just natural selection? Is this a stable morph? Do all the Yellow's found in that area look like that? You may be right, but I think you are jumping to conclusions.

Well, okay,...maybe THIS term is more precise......a Yellow Ratsnake with Black Ratsnake influence. After all, that is precisely why they get "darker" as they move north as you stated. I don't think there's much to debate on that.

I certainly wouldn't call it a "Yellow",OR a Black Rat. From what I understood from the post, the guy sits right at an intergrade zone of both. It sure looks "Green" to me.

What was I supposed to have missed?.......this isn't meant to be nasty at all, just trying to understand what the possible disagreement was about. It looks and sounds like it's geography is "right on".

I live down in central Florida where they usually display well defined thinner longitudinal lines, and strong vivid coloration.

Here is a pic of a male captured from this area.

best regards, ~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I guess I should have told the locality. I am in extreme northeastern South Carolina near the coast. You can travel sixty or so miles to the north and west and start to run into some black rats. You can also travel a few miles farther to the south of me and find some typical yellows. The ones I see here vary in their colors and patterns. Some have the stripes like the one I posted, and some have both the stripes and squre dorsal blotches. I have only caught one like this one, though.

Wow, that's really cool looking.

In an intergrade zone you would find all three types. In this example you would find classic Black Rats, Yellow Rats, and intergrades. Since the nearest Black Rats are 60 miles away (about 100 KM for the rest of the world), this isn't exactly your classic intergrade zone. For example, in my area (S.E. Va.), you find Bufo americanus americanus, Bufo fowleri, and you find toads that are a cross between the two (intergrades).

As to why the snakes would be darker as you go further north, there must be an advantage to be able to warm up more quickly in cooler climates would be my guess. Since there are also those who think that there is only one species of Eastern Rat Snake (Pantherophis alleghaniensis), then the whole question of "intergrade" may be a stupid conversation for them.

BTW, Greenish Rat Snake works for me. They are great looking snakes.

I was just discussing the theory of the darker snakes associated with cooler climates. I have found many black rat snakes in the Appalachain Mountains and other areas farther west where it is cooler than here along the coast. I'm sure they warm up more quickly on a sunny morning after a cool summer night!

One more thing. There are some who feel that black and yellow rat snakes have been mixing in this area for so long now that the greenish has become the dominant animal. It almost seems that there simply no more yellows or blacks around this area. I would be interested in hearing from anyone who lives near Myrtle Beach, SC who has any input on this, if not, anyone from southeastern North Carolina to Savannah, Georgia or west toward central SC. who has seen any of these snakes in the wild. I would tend to agree that this is not an intergrade zone based on the lack of the two species needed to create the intergrade. At what point does an intergrade become a new sub. Make no mistake now. I am by no means qualified to make such a suggestion. I'm just curious as to whether or not it has even been considered.

"I would tend to agree that this is not an intergrade zone based on the lack of the two species needed to create the intergrade."

It actually makes sense that we do not find any true Blacks or Yellows in the Black/Yellow intergrade zone. Only if the intergrade zone is very narrow, resulting in a rather steep morphometrical cline, you'd expect to find all three of them (Black, Yellow, Greenish) more or less equally abundant, or the true forms more abundant than the intergrade. This is what we usually see in hybrid zones where secundairy contact was established very recently, or where the intergrade is selected against. This evidently is not the case in the Black/Yellow intergrade zone.

"At what point does an intergrade become a new sub."

It doesn't. The evolutionary species concept does not rule out the possibility of reticulate speciation, but by the time the intergrade or hybrid becomes distinct enough to be designated as a new (sub)species, mankind probably will no longer be around to take notice.

"Make no mistake now. I am by no means qualified to make such a suggestion. I'm just curious as to whether or not it has even been considered."

Probably not. In case of an intergrade, it usually gets discarded as a taxon. If not, chances are no one will even bother. The subspecies concept has become a rather controversial among taxonomists.

"At what point does an intergrade become a new sub.

It doesn't. The evolutionary species concept does not rule out the possibility of reticulate speciation, but by the time the intergrade or hybrid becomes distinct enough to be designated as a new (sub)species, mankind probably will no longer be around to take notice."

Aren't Kisatchee (slowinski) corns thought to be intergrades between corns and emoryi? If so, that'd be one example of an intergrade that's been elevated to subspecific status...or its own species depending on who you talk to. Gulf Hammock rats were also a subspecies at one point and personally I think that was a valid classification (I'll never get behind this P. alleghaniensis idea). Outer Banks kingsnakes might be another good example, though I'm not as familiar with kings as rats so I can't say if they're still a valid subspecies. I'm not saying all zones of intergradation produce taxonomically distinct animals, but it does happen in some cases.

"Aren't Kisatchee (slowinski) corns thought to be intergrades between corns and emoryi? If so, that'd be one example of an intergrade that's been elevated to subspecific status...or its own species depending on who you talk to."

You just said it yourself, Kisatchee Corns once were THOUGHT to be intergrades. As it turned out, they're not. Burbrink et al did the proposal to designate the taxon as a species: Elaphe slowinskii. I'm not sure whether or not this proposal has been accepted officially.

"Gulf Hammock rats were also a subspecies at one point and personally I think that was a valid classification (I'll never get behind this P. alleghaniensis idea)."

Well, the thing is they look very much like all the other Grey/Yellow intergrades, and the area in wich the Gulf Hammock Ratsnake occurs is adjacent to (or part of) the Grey/Yellow intergradation zone. So chances are it actually is just a variant of the intergrade (integrades are allowed to have geographical variability).

"Outer Banks kingsnakes might be another good example, though I'm not as familiar with kings as rats so I can't say if they're still a valid subspecies. I'm not saying all zones of intergradation produce taxonomically distinct animals, but it does happen in some cases."

Actually, the Outer Bank King is a bad example. The only reason I can think of why this taxon has been thought to be an Eastern/Florida King intergrade is because this way of reasoning was fashionable among herpetologists about 40 to 30 years ago. If it's difficult to separate from the other subspecies, make it an intergrade. With our current knowledge of hybrid zone dynamics, it seems very, and I mean VERY unlikely, that the Outer Banks King is the evolutionary result of secundairy contact between Eastern and Florida Kings. If this were true, you'd expect to find intergrade populations from North Carolina to central Florida (the current position of the intergradation zone). This evidently is not the case.

Yes, without a single doubt a Greenish Ratsnake.

that there snake looks like what them redneck fellers call a "chicken snake",lol.it is fun to find a nice 5 1/2 or 6 footer,though.usually don't try to bite,or even musk you.sweet.
anymore,that's about the only ratsnake that you can find w/ any regularity around here(charleston,sc).
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0.1 cb spotted turtle (parker)
0.0.6 wc baby stinkpots
0.0.1 cb peninsula cooter (gizmo)
0.0.1 wc yellow belly slider (snaps)
1.0 cb albino corn(rusty)
1.0 cb albino lucy texas rat(frost)(pink eyes,all white)
0.0.2 wc halloween crabs
0.2 irritating cats (sassy & miley)
2.0 cb children (sidney,12 & kaelan,4)
0.1 wc wife (danae,age withheld due to fears for personal safety)

HEY! I'm a Red Neck! I live in Wilmington, NC. To the north of me is Pender co. (red mole country) and to the south is Bladen co (red pigmy rattlers). As far as finding chicken/greenish rats, they are basicly uniformed here and stay that way for about 50 MILES to the west. To the east, well they drown because I live on the coast. I have found them as far south as GA but I have only found black rats after the HW 40 / I-95 intersection. The nearest state herpetologist calls them yellow rats and I argue as much as I can about it.
The color of the snakes in my area ranges from an olive drab to a slate grey with all having black or dark brown stripes as adults. I have found alot over the course of the past 10 years and I can't remember even being hissed at by one over 3' in length.
I think we should call them Military Rats due to the number of Marine and Army bases found within it's range and their color.
-Blue