Reptile & Amphibian Forums

So I had my new rescued python examined by who I assumed was a reputable herp vet. They did a good thorough exam (which was great) & then started to talk husbandry.

A good amount of the advice they gave me was completely contradictory to what I've learned. Be it here, from breeders, from "the big books", etc. Examples: BPs need UV light. The bigger the enclosure, the better. BPs need things to climb on. BPs need overhead lighting, ditch the UTH. I am feeding my snakes too much (every 5-7 days). The list goes on. Then they probed the snake backwards (toward the head) & stated that a female will probe deeper than a male. The probe thing I understand, as that particular vet hasn't mastered the procedure. Even so.. Is any of that info correct? Have I been wrong all along? If not.. what the heck do I do/say?

Did I mention this is a vet I work for? :/
Did I mention this snake is staying at the hospital for awhile for quarantine, & the doctor will be expecting me to change my setup per her advice?

This is a very awkward situation for me. Any suggestions??

-Tami*

NO - none of it is correct.

LOL

I guess the next question would be what made you think this was a "reputable herp vet" ?

As for what you should do - first of all - don't change you husbandry to suit this vet - obviously you know better. You might want to bring it up in a diplomatic way that they don't know what they are talking about - perhaps buy them a copy of The Complete Ball Python. I'm not very good at constructive criticisms and diplomacy so I can't help you out there.
-----
Tosha
JET Pythons

Hi Tosha,

As far as why I assumed this was a DVM worthy of treating herps.. well.. they do on a regular basis! So.. scary thought.. this doctor is giving out this info to clients who in good faith will follow these directions.

Yikes.

I did respectfully disagree with many statements, asserting what I've learned/read in order to make it seem that I was merely confused & not criticizing.. Basically I was just told I was wrong. heh.

Thanks for the reply.

-Tami*

I guess for job security I would not rattle the chains too much, but I would sit down with him and do some research together. He does not need to be dealing out information this bad (100% wrong) to new reptile owners.
-----
www.fbballpythons.com

FatBoy,

You hit the nail on the head. If it were practically anyone else, I'd have no problem "calling them out" so to speak. However, as my higher-up.. It makes me a little wary of sullying a currently great working relationship. Oi.

-Tami*

not part of the cure ,you are part of the problem

....find a new job then ream them a good one....and tell them to read up.....

..ask them how many balls they owned or bred or hatched.?...

..they'll say 0

......I'll say hundreds ......

......who would you trust with your balls?....

.......
-----
..............

..................
.

I agree to a extent. While you should do something to let them know they are wrong its not worth your job i mean no money no food for you or your snakes. I suggest you bring in some books on ball husbandry. They are educated in animal care wich means they read about animals and im sure the husbandry books are the same as the ones we read. Im not trying to take the vet down a notch infact i have a ton of respect for vets dont know if its true but i hear alot of doctors are people that failed at being a vet i mean a doctor has to take care of humans one body when a vet takes care of birds dogs cats reptiles you name it i would think thats alot of learning.
-----
B Sleeper

1.0 Chocolate Lab
0.1 ?? Normal Ball python (yet different)
1.0 04 Het Albino
1.1 06 Het Albino
1.0 06 Het Pied
1.0 06 Pastel
1.0 07 Pastel

like I said....10 years to be a vet.....that's why I didn't go for it.....

anyways......yesterday I felt more harsh than right now.

so....if you want to work for this guy /girl...try and get them educated , if they are on a high horse knock it around a little....

I work FOR and WITH all TOTAL idiots too......

.....
-----
..............

..................
.

lol. I do enjoy my relationship with this doctor as she is very educational & tends to explain her diagnoses to me rather than just write me off as "another tech". She helps me take part in the treatment plan & understand more about medicine every day. Also.. it's an 8 doctor practice so she's not my -direct- boss or anything. Plus I love my job there! But I'm definitely in agreement that it should be discussed.. I can't stand idly by & watch someone dispense incorrect information.. It could be costing some snakes their health or worse their lives.

Thanks everyone (again!) for all your suggestions.

-Tami*

tam,
i would love to hear that you slammed this buckethead for being such a worthless piece of worthlessness, but you can do more good there than on the street delivering chinese.
most vets should stick to cats and dogs. i believe that if you don't know somethin' for sure, you should shut your friggin' piehole. it's all about money.
maybe you could talk said zipperhead into printing up a few caresheets for the most common herp critters you get in there.
you could get good ones on ks and run some off at the office.
offer them as handouts to the poor souls who actually entrust their captive's health to this disgusting piece of human waste.
get your animal the hell outta there asap.
good luck,
ck

de-licensed......de-vetted....

.UTH .......no light needed....

feed once a week.....

anyways,....IF you probe towards the ehad it would probe all the way out the face technically?......and they'd all bury a probe.no matter what sex.........

...........vets can be dumb......even after 8 years plus 2....10 years schooling and alot of money......and still dog docs.....

...............tell them to read this forum and talk to us.....
-----
..............

..................
.

And gift a copy of the Barker book and/or "The Complete Ball Python"...
-----
Brad Chambers

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

I'm thinking of printing some of threads on this forum & offering them to this doctor for some additional info on BPs from a well known and reputable reptile resource. I don't want to insult their knowledge or schooling.. I'm reasonably certain that it's just expired or antiquated information learned from older texts. I don't believe this person would intentionally or maliciously give out misinformation. So I'm trying to go about this gently.. while at the same time nipping it in the bud. SUPER difficult!

jyohe - I feel like getting this DVM to spread the RIGHT info would do more than confronting them in a negative manner about it.. I just haven't the slightest idea how to do that without being offensive..

& perhaps there isn't a way to do that? : /

i had a situation like this, when i bought my ball from petco i got a free wellness vet visit at their expense. they took the weight, did a good physical exam, wouldnt prob the snake because he admitted to not knowing what he was doing, but he was giving me the same husbandry info i would have used for my iguana...... i actually laughed at him when he said "mist the cage any chance you get because in SOUTH AMERICA were the snakes come from it is very humid" i was like ok......thanks for your time......and left. i have learned more from here and the barkers book than i think he was ever exposed to in all his schooling. i just think it is misinformation that they received and are not purposely giving it out.
-----
1 iguana
..1 normal ball python
3 fish
and we had a pet mouse......untill stripes was hungry

That much wrong info. would have me wondering what she really knows about dogs and cats. Would take any animal I have elsewhere. That being said...if you enjoy the working relationship you have with her...find a way to tell her...will be good for the both of you in the long run.
-----
Dale....dgoins222@yahoo.com
www.LibertyReptiles.com

A hole with no light....................................lol, people give their snakes trees to climb on and lights and little moustaches and they wonder why their snake wont eat. Ball pythons live in termite mounds in africa and come out at night to hunt. You should try to recreate that and your snakes will do good... Your vet is giving you advice for an overall snake setup As per "boa" etc.....most snakes do well with a heat light and BP's will too, but.........................P.S. people think Ghana is an arid desert with no humidity, check the humidity levels in ghana during the breeding season. There's a hint for you to help with your breeding kids. Take care

Mike Brooks
Long Island, NY
631-732-4233

Where are you located? Do you have a local herp society? If so, you can have them offer to have a presentation to your vet with the proper husbandry techniques of all the most common reptiles?

I work part time for a vet who specializes in large animals but also sees dogs, cats and other critters. Vets only learn dogs and cats in school unless they go longer and species specific. They don't even have a basic class in "beginning reptile". So most of our vets are very unprepared for reptile problems and questions. That said, a good vet should be open to information. My vet doesn't get mad if I bring in books to discuss a problem, he actually reads what I ask him too then gives me his opinion of the situation. He admits that info is vital to a good practice and has never pulled the "I went to school and know it all " with me or any other client. He does disagree sometimes but it is always open to discussion. I agree with the advice of bringing the correct info to your vet. Remeber vets aren't god (although a few consider themselves close relatives!) and you should have the final say in what and how your animal is treated. Good luck with a touchy problem.

I am located in northern MA, almost NH. I'll have to do some research but that actually sounds like an excellent idea. Boarding my snake at the hospital has taught me how little everyone there really knows about reptiles, & if I can get the interest up, maybe I can host some kind of presentation there and.. erm.. "indirectly" teach the DVM a thing or too.

Thanks!

-Tami*

> Vets only learn dogs and cats in school.

This is not true. On my national board exam I had questions on dogs, cats, horses, cattle, pigs, birds, public health, and yes reptiles and other exotics.

>They don't even have a basic class in "beginning reptile"

Also not true. Each school is different and it depends on the faculty that works at the school. Some schools actually have very good reptile courses although they are usually electives and only taken by those that are interested.

The main problem with this particular situation is that unfortunately in exotics medicine 90% of the time the problem is due to poor husbandry. Most of the time bloodwork, radiographs, surgery etc. are not needed, and the clients just have to be educated on how to properly care for the particular species that they own. If your boss is not familiar with the husbandry requirements, they need to do some reading before perpetuating incorrect information. There is nothing wrong with having to look up information. With the number of species available in this hobby there is no way for anyone to have the caging, lighting, temperature, and diet requirements of all the species memorized.

I would talk to you boss. There is an appropriate way, and an inappropriate way to bring this up. If you are confrontational and tell them according to some posters on a forum they are wrong and should be de-vetted (no such thing), or de-licensed (would take an offense mush worse than this to loose a license) then your boss is going to be less receptive. If you bring them some books or other care sheets and ask them what they think about the information in them, they should be more willing to read up on the subject and discuss it with you.

If that doesn't work tell them that you heard from someone who keeps and breeds snakes (including ball pythons), is a veterinarian (and an ARAV member) that some of their husbandry information is incorrect.

-----
Michael McFadden, M.S., D.V.M.

ck

It's great to get the opinion of the other side of the coin! (you being a vet, I mean) Thanks for the good ideas. Now I have to build up the guts to implement them. A lot of the whole experience just kind of made me doubt myself but hearing everything that you've all said I feel a lot better about building my case & discussing it with her.

Thank you again!

-Tami*

I say go for it. You never stop learning and since these animals cannot speak for themselves, we must speak up for them. Your boss may not like it, but if he/she is going to do what's right, they have to be open-minded to other ideas and change.

99% of the vets I have met have extremely poor knowledge of reptiles. However, all of them were interested in learning more.
-----
Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

If it were me, I'd print out a couple of care sheets, or bring in one of your books. Tell Your vet that you were doing some research and then show her what you 'found'. Then suggest based on this 'new' information, that "We" probably should not be changing the set up.... If you package it as if it's a learning experience for both of you as a team ,(and don't focus on the fact that she gave you mis-information ) you, the vet, and the snake will all be better off.

Good Luck.
A
-----
"There is a fine line between a hobby and mental illness"
COLD BLOOD.........WARM HEART

While your vet did get some things 'wrong', or at least contradict them to what common practice is... The vet isn't entirely off the ball. For a pet animal that is also going to be a display creature, a larger enclosure isn't a bad thing...provided, of course, that there are many hides, and if the enclosure is really that large, multiple water bowls and heat sources, and so on and so forth.
Yes, we do overfeed our snakes...but we do it on purpose for breeding. It's not a bad thing to only feed your ball python one meal every two weeks...granted that that meal is appropriately sized. It's probably better for them not to eat so often, especially if they're not going to be breeding. My adult males only get fed every 14 days, maybe every 10 if they're looking hungry.
If you read up on husbandry practices in other countries, ball pythons are often kept in cages with climbing furniture, basking lights, and even UVB lights...granted, the snakes don't need the lights for calcium absorption, but they do look pretty darn awesome displayed under them. The goal is not to just keep them, but to give them lots of choices, and for the snakes to pick what they like best. It is an interesting difference in perspective. The books I have read were published in germany, and the authors still used UTHs underneath a couple hides in their enclosures.

The problem that I can see with what your vet was telling you was that she/he was describing the care for ball pythons if you want to go the step up from the basics. Large, lighted enclosures are all well and good for someone who knows what problems they will run into, and can counter them, but the average beginner is going to have a hard time keeping the snake thriving in that kind of cage.

So maybe that's a tactic you can take - mention that while what she's/he's describing may be what's "best" for the snake, the average or beginner keeper usually doesn't have the knowledge or experience to be able to cope with keeping a snake in a cage like that.

Disclaimer - I keep all my snakes in plastic boxes because I will admit I can't keep them thriving in a large, pretty display cage.

~jenny
-----
"Polysyllabism in no way insures that what you're saying is actually worth being heard." - Blake (an e-friend of mine)

"I have never made but one prayer to god, a very short one: "O lord, make my enemies ridiculous." And he granted it." - Voltaire