Reptile & Amphibian Forums

this lav. was produced by j.cherry she is from t.walter lines which started from tim ricks line.

bred to this snow produced by gulfcoast reptiles

now the snow always had a questionable look to him. the babies are bit differant in look so i will not do this breeding again.
this year i plan to breed the lav(t.walter) with this lav from d.good.

here are some of the questionable babies from the lavXsnow breeding note the head patterns and one has the CALI tail!



there were only 3 produced and they are staying w/me never to be bred, or if they are into cross/hybrid projects. i thinks its fairly easy to see how these could be dumped into the pet trade as brooksi and is also a good reason to ask alot of questions and look at alot of snakes if your looking to aquire breeding stock.
have fun,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

I think it was at least 5 years ago, but I know they produced some goini cross backs including anery and snow. Never heard anything from them again....but I do want to point out that they honestly represented what they had. Some "regular" snakes(like FL kings) people dont seem to care as much about locale/history about....I mean there will always be wide speculation that the lavendar gene is originally from the CAL king anyways...J

Posted by: Jeff Schofield at Fri Jan 11 19:23:41 2008 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

I think it was at least 5 years ago, but I know they produced some goini cross backs including anery and snow. Never heard anything from them again....but I do want to point out that they honestly represented what they had. Some "regular" snakes(like FL kings) people dont seem to care as much about locale/history about....I mean there will always be wide speculation that the lavendar gene is originally from the CAL king anyways...J

Exactly what I would have said.
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

Bluerosy...who shamelessly takes every opportunity he can to post a picture of his Peabino.

hey jeff i agree. this snow i got from fliptop(forum poster) he got it directly from gulfcoast when he sent it to me he sent the g.c.receipt which stated: snow brooksi l.g.floridana. i as well as most whove seen him say cross but i had HEARD morphs can effect pattern so i thought id just breed him and see, now as stated/shown i wont breed him anymore unless its just for crosses.
,,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

There is at least 1 person here who LIKES the morph crosses....

Thank you, Thomas. That is exactly the sort of information that we can use in judging different snakes. If that is what you meant below about telling all and letting the customer make up their mind I have to go 180 and agree with you. They are gorgeous snakes, too, could convince you that you had to have it. Thanks!

SOMETHING NEW, the latest thing, is always difficult,rare....and therefore expensive. We all like snakes to begin with because WE are different, it only makes sense that we strive for continual specialization. Rare morphs are becoming easier to get but still somewhat expensive. CROSSES, like floridana x goini can infuse color,morphs and patterns quickly and cheaply. There is much less stigma with morph crosses now, and lets face it....if a snake is attractive it will be in demand no matter where it comes from.Jeff

Jeff, no offense to you or your position but in my opinion there is more of a stigma against morphs and hybrids than ever before.

My observation is that people thought they were neat and unusual (morphs in general) when they first hit the hobby - but as they have become more common (doesn't matter which species or color morph) and the prices for morphs (i have no idea about hybrids) come down FASTER each time there is a new one - people may become less willing to be on the (b)leading edge of owning / breeding a new morph.

To paraphrase the above: each new morph makes all of the previous morphs and future morphs worth a little less because morphs in general are becoming more common, in my opinion.

Why would you spend $300 on a kingsnake morph when if you can wait for 2 years you can buy a het for $25 or the morph itself for $50?

Just my opinion Jeff so please don't flame one me ---

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ECC
www.eastcoastcolubrids.com

Home of TEAM ECC
It's an Inner Circle thing... you wouldn't understand...

I think its cyclical. Whatever is preseaved as rare is more highly valued. Take thayeri for example, time was a blazing orange phase noenate was a rarity and they were expensive, now they are the norm and people are pining for more wild type like animals. When bright orange was the rage I couldn't give wild type thayeri away, now that isn't the case. I would suspect that once thayeri breeders follow the next gold rush, black thayeri, bright orange leonis will become less available and their stock will rise again.

As for crosses and hybrids, stigma or not, as long as they are pretty I believe there will always be a demand but their value will never be that of a new morph or a well bred classic line but that's just my opinion.

Tony - I would agree that tastes change but I am not sure about the cyclical part.

I can never remember when "wild-type" snakes were more popular than morphs: until now. I think that people have seen all of the morphs and it has taken that distraction, coupled with the waste of habitat, for collectors and hobbyists to sit back and realize that the natural colors are the best after all --- and indeed are one of the reasons to like snakes in the 1st place.

Just my opinion..................
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ECC
www.eastcoastcolubrids.com

Home of TEAM ECC
It's an Inner Circle thing... you wouldn't understand...

I can never remember when "wild-type" snakes were more popular than morphs: until now.

I can. It’s an age thing, one day you'll understand.

I would agree that loss of habitat is making more and more people think about what we are loosing though.

C'mon Tony --- I am only 35. You can't be more than 25 or 30 years older than me.

But seriously, when you were younger you can remember when wild-type snakes were more popular than morphs? How can that be since, I am assuming, there were no morphs back then.

(I was only kidding about the age thing - I know you are not that much older than me)
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ECC
www.eastcoastcolubrids.com

Home of TEAM ECC
It's an Inner Circle thing... you wouldn't understand...

If there were no morphs then how could they have been more popular?
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

c'mon now, you know you can't prove a negative! if they weren't there you can't possibly say they weren't more popular!

btw, did you pick up those pines?

daveb

Just waiting for good weather on the pines. I'll send pics when they get here... Maybe bring one or two to Daytona to show
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

when i was breeding floridana I always sold more normal het for nothings than morphs, and got more compliments for the normals than morphs. I bet I traded more morphs than I sold over time, too. Maybe it was a regional effect, maybe it was the market for this subspecies, maybe I am a horrible salesperson. Whatever the reason, for 9-10 years that is how it worked...

I got (back) into herpetoculture in the early 90's because of a 6' black and white eastern king I saw at a local herp club display. I certainly don't speak for ewveryone, but I think the attraction to wild type specimens is never far from the top. Just like the news doesn't tell you all you need to know, if you look you will find "it".
daveb

I hear what you are saying Peter.

I myself have both " wild type " snakes and morphs, and somehow, even though many morphs really jazz the heck outta me, I still hail my favorite snake above all, northern pines in their natural colors, as the most beautiful serpents ever.

As far as kings is concerned, alterna are my faves. So much variation in colors and patterns, it seems that there is no end to their diversity.

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Genesis 1:1

it is definetly cyclical with rarity. people are out their looking for locality corns now because you cant even buy a classic corn with out 30 hets attached. many people out their cant even define why their snakes look the way they do because their is so many genes at work.
adam jeffery
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" a.k.a. farfrumugen "
hybrid breeders association
1.1 puebladurans
1.1 sinacorns
1.1 hypo corns
1.1 kenyan sand boas
1.1 mbk
1.1 albino corns
1.1 childrens python
1.2 ghost corns
2.2 butter(both females motley)
2.2 pyroxgreerixruthvenixalternaxcampbellixholbrooki
0.1 hypo pyroxgreerixruthvenixalternaxcampbellixholbrooki
1.0 snow corns
1.0 jurassic milk
1.0 house snake
1.0 crimson corns
0.2 albino pueblacorns
0.1 striped ghosts
0.1 anery pueblacorn
0.1 bloodred
0.1 striped albino corn
0.1 albino nelsons
0.1 anery motley
0.1 normal corn het hypo,anery
0.1 hypo tang hondo
0.1 rosy boa

it is definetly cyclical with rarity. people are out their looking for locality corns now because you cant even buy a classic corn with out 30 hets attached. many people out their cant even define why their snakes look the way they do because their is so many genes at work.

Well I can't speak for corns because they are outcrossed to all sorts of things. But if a corn is pure then the nomal het form should not be different from a wild type if the line was kept pure and not outcrossed to other corns. Where things get muddled is outcrossing to new stock.

Take the florida hypos for example. The original hypos came from nice looking s. florida kings. Since then people outcrossed the Beard and Love line. I had both these lines and did not outbreed them. So when I finally bred them to a New England (another line that was kept pure since the founding stock) the double hets came out the classic normals that brooks afficianados were looking for before the advent of the hypo. When the hypo came along it was the ultimate in high yellow bvrooks. So people dropped the normals. There was no reason to breed a high yellow normal any more. Today that has come back around and people want nice normals like we used to see bqck in the day before the hypos. In a few years the whole cycle will come around again. It is called "fad" and whatever is in fad will be popular. At least for this forum and it posters. But the general public at reptile shows will not buy this stuff and I still find anything looking like a normal floridana or corn to be very difficult to sell in the internet. And then add to the fact we are talking about $15-$20 snakes. So of course those with limited resources will be wanting these. But the ones screaming the loudest about how great nomals are... are the ones peddling them to get rid of them.

Bottom line morphs sell. Normals do not. We are talking about a very small core of people who like normals enough to invest in a large collection and breed them on a large scale. Most just find them a novelty and will include a pair or maybe two in their collection of ball pythons and other cool high end stuff.. From a investment perspective it is a waste of time feeding adults to try and sell for $15-$20 babies.
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

Bluerosy...who shamelessly takes every opportunity he can to post a picture of his Peabino.

there are folks out there paying $150 to $200 for "normal" locality Texas Bullsnakes.

That's the thing, no one in their right mind would sell a snake for $20.00 if it costs $75.00 to feed it for a year - unless they just picked it up and are selling WC snakes in quantity.

I agree with a cyclical market. I've seen it come and go, and come back around again. Right now _most_ of the markets are pretty healthy .
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

Joe I agree about the normal locality Texas bullsnakes. And the same goes with normal calif kings, asian rats ect.

But I was responding to nnormal cornsnakes which you see all over breeders table at reptiles shos. They have them marked cheap and still go home with them. The same goes for normal florida kings.
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

Bluerosy...who shamelessly takes every opportunity he can to post a picture of his Peabino.

Drink is the work of the
cursing class!
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Work is the curse
of the drinking class!

All my normal FL kings het/nothing sold out very quickly this year and I still have some morphs left.
It changes from year to year it seems.
I didn't breed my "mahogany" pairs and I had many inquiries about them. If I choose to breed them this season, we'll see if there's interest again.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

There already is, put me down for 1.2
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Todd Hughes

I remember selling melanistic thayeri in '01 or '02 for $15 each. The adult pair was sold for less than $100. I wish I hadn't sold them, not because the animals are now in higher demand but due to the fact that they were beautiful and interesting to keep.

>>I remember selling melanistic thayeri in '01 or '02 for $15 each. The adult pair was sold for less than $100. I wish I hadn't sold them, not because the animals are now in higher demand but due to the fact that they were beautiful and interesting to keep. >>>

Ditto on that !

I remember one year around that time when I saw 10 gallon tank full of two or three dozen thayeri of all colors and patterns, including melanistics and super nice high oranges for $25 each at the San Diego Reptile Show.
Do you have any history on your melanistics? I'm just curious about the whole history of mexicana in captivity.

- is can you trust the breeder or not?

You never know what is on a breeder's table at a show. I only buy and trade with people I trust - and a lot of that comes from what I feel their intentions are. Is it to share in the hobby or take from it?

Sometimes it comes down to that.
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ECC
www.eastcoastcolubrids.com

Home of TEAM ECC
It's an Inner Circle thing... you wouldn't understand...

I saw an F2 clutch of "albino" Florida's in 92 and there is not a bit of doubt in my mind that the gene was migrated in from a Cal king line and most people I talk to seem to accept this as either a fact or as very probable so I'm not sure I understand the post. Are you questioning the GC stock or the CF stock? If I read this correct the genes were allelic as you produced lavenders/albinos neonates from the pairing which to me would suggest both stocks have a similar heritage. Also, I would expect some Cal like traits to pop up occasionally in a known cross or highly suspect line. Am I missing something here? Are there two lines of albino?

Tony,
A lot of reccessive traits ARE allelic. I have bred hybrids from two coasts and others and the genes are compatiple.

So to reason that a cal kinmg lav is allelic with a florida does not really prove anything. I just discovered from a recent hybrid that the albino yellow rat is compatiple with the amel cal. There are many others and i am sure that many that have not been crossed are allelic. Probably more often that not snakes from completly different geographic regions will still share the same alelle. What does this tell us? The probability of genes being unrelated are ver high, let me rephrase this..they are almost impossible. So the only conclusion is that most of these snakes (irregardless of being seperated by thousands of mile with no overlap came from original ancestorial snakes) can be traced back to a few original snakes.

Snakes in nature are constantly evolving and changing from climate, borders and heritage. With a single natural hybrid they will usually breed back to one or the other spp and blend back in. Over time this can make a difference in just a couple decades. Heck even less if you consider what collectors used to find more of this and less of that then in the 70's and even 80's.

Then there are other factors which lend itself that certain spp are less likely to hybridze. But that just means an eventual spp became resistant (ie snake eaters) and they will hold onto their respective habits and natural ecology more than others. Same goes for isolated pops and particular desert dwelling or water dwelling snakes.But is still happens. Just not on our time clock.
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

Bluerosy...who shamelessly takes every opportunity he can to post a picture of his Peabino.

Seems like a lot of rationalization there Rainer! There is no doubt that melanin production in north American colubrids likely goes back to a single strain of ancestral organism but the real question is how many genes are involved in the production of melanin and how many loci along each gene could mutate to cause failure. The higher that number the greater the chance that morphs would not be allelic. The other side of the equation is how many opportunities have there been for hybridization in captive lines. I can’t quantify any of this but I believe the probability is that if two morphs prove allelic they share a recent captive ancestor.

hey tony here goes:

I saw an F2 clutch of "albino" Florida's in 92 and there is not a bit of doubt in my mind that the gene was migrated in from a Cal king line and most people I talk to seem to accept this as either a fact or as very probable so I'm not sure I understand the post. Are you questioning the GC stock or the CF stock?

>>>yes i beleive the lav which originates from t.ricks line is true(as any) floridana and that the snow from GC is a more recent cross with what?who knows cali,goini?... i base that on the look of their offspring and wont breed them again. i stated below that it was my beleif ALL lav.floridana were created IF thats the case it stands to reason some would look better or more true if you will than others by how long they were backbred like say F2 compared with F5 etc. some people are quick to say hybrid and i was just trying to say imho ALL lav.albinos are likely crosses.

If I read this correct the genes were allelic as you produced lavenders/albinos neonates from the pairing which to me would suggest both stocks have a similar heritage. Also, I would expect some Cal like traits to pop up occasionally in a known cross or highly suspect line. Am I missing something here? Are there two lines of albino?

>>>it just prooves the albino genes were/are allelic and by the looks of the babies there is something in the woodpile. imho that showed up from the snow father
(he has a questionable look) this year i will breed the lav with a diff.lav male and see. now if those babies are questionable in looks i will think the female is indeed a more recent cross perhaps i will never know. as far as i know there is only one line of albinos in kings,,,,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

I don't necessarily think that the phenotype of an F5 won't exhibit some aspect of both parent forms. True those shooting for something that is phenotypically an albino Florida king will keep and continually breed back the most Florida-like offspring to achieve the goal but SOMEBODY ends up with the more obvious crosses. If they get bred, chances are good that traits form both parents will be passed on and might be manifest for several generations. In the end both lines are still crosses even if this is indistinguishable in one.

What is the purpose of this type of post.
So what, if the few people who participate by replying all agree on one thing that is the end of the discussion? The hobby is depending on the opinions of us few to enlighten the rest of the world on snakes we do not know the origins of?
I see some snakes that are suspect that look very pure and others that do not. Some may have been back bred or whatever,,,,I realize this.
The bottom line is I had a questionable snake and supplied tons of info as far as the history and it mattered not. This same type of argumentative post appeared time after time. It didn't matter that it was tracebale back to wild caughts. Nothing matters. If every person who posts on this forum agrees it still does not matter much as there's many people who will never see this "info" and will call them as they see them and take the word of the breeder they choose to buy from.
I almost bought some hets tihs year from soemone who bred Cal King to Brooksi just to make this cross and see what eventually came of it. I choose not too, as it seemed like an awful lot of effort to get answers to something that is not as important as some of us would like to think.
Keep in mind as soon as you start breeding for things like less tipping, perfect banding, brighter color regardless of morph or not....you're still not representing snakes as they are in nature....for the most part anyway.
I have my opinion on the snake in question and I am done discussing it. I have done it more times than I'd prefer to think about...it is a waste of time. I see ones I would not want in my collection and others I do. How many people would freeze or part with snakes from their collections the day the undoubted truth was told? Not many....
I have a snake in my collection right now that a few harrased me over telling me how wrong I was that it could never intergrade with what it more so appeared ot look like. The a self proclaimed expert went out and caught a bunch just like it himself and said that his showed "influence" of another sub species. So for whatever reason mine was not pure but his were because of the range his were caught in yet they had "influence"
Such nonsense is not worth arguing.
Enjoy your snakes
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Why can't the OP make this post. He was just pointing out some stuff about some of his snakes.

You ain't the sheriff of the forum --- nobody is and I thought it was perfectly appropriate for him to bring up the topic. Just because you are done with this topic does not mean the case is closed.

The nerve.
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ECC
www.eastcoastcolubrids.com

Home of TEAM ECC
It's an Inner Circle thing... you wouldn't understand...

And if everyone agrees then what? Thats that?

Thats all I was saying. I never said my opnion was any more important than anyone elses.

All I did was explain why the discussion was barely worth anyones time, not worth mine anyway....

I gave an example why I feel that way. I thought that was clear.

In closing I will say the guy who I think popularized the Lavs was also the guy who first came up with another morph that a few of us found questionable. People jumped all over me on that one and I don't understand why one simply can not be....which is many peoples theory, and another one is definitely NOT a hybrid....yet they came from the same guy?

This forum can be a great place to get info. However it is just a small group of us who regularly participate. That was my point... and again.... so if we, meaning all of us on this forum agree on something being pure or a hybrid, that's the end of the discussion? My vote is no, it will never ever ever end thats all
Tom
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TomsSnakes.com

When these snakes first were popularized in the late 80's it was a general belief that there was Cal King influence. It also was not denied by many people offering them. Now it seems there are few people deathly afraid that it will hurt sales so they are wildly trying to rewrite history.

If these revisionist would just say that maybe that's what happened long ago so be it. Once it was believed that these were crossed undoubtedly many others followed and it can not be denied that there are many many crosses out there.

Who knows what Dr. Frankenstein is crossing to come up with the Peanutbutter and Jelly, Peabino Flame Whitesided pure Florida King

thats completely uncalled for. this post was/is not about bashing. it was to point out and show some traits in crosses. many many many people breed true lines and crosses and are honest about it. you CANNOT just arbitrarily label new morphs as hybrids especially if there is history w/them. the traits you listed have years of work behind them some trace to w/c stock. created and refined are 2 completely diff.things. it is MY OPINION that lav. floridana were initially created in the hobby but i certainly could be wrong. ,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

everybody needs to just accept the fact that all of these broksi/Floridina's are just pretty animals for the hobby/pet trade.
If you want pure animals go catch them but at this time I don't care what kind of homework you do there is always a cal king in the woodpile just like there will always be a polyzona and or stuarti in the honduran woodpile. Fact of life that there are no true morphs out there right now.
L8r Shannon

Shannon, the only Florida morphs that anyone ever questioned are the lavenders and whitesideds. The axanthic and hypo Floridas existed before there even was a cal king axanthic an
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

Bluerosy...who shamelessly takes every opportunity he can to post a picture of his Peabino.

Rainer, I agree on that but that was way back then.Once even one real hypo FL. was crossed with a lav or whiteside etc.. they are all in one basket now.I really don't think anybody (not even you but correct me if I am wrong) has kept the lines seperate.
It just doesn't matter anymore as they are all desiegner snakes anyways.

L8r

"""It just doesn't matter anymore as they are all desiegner snakes anyways. """
In most cases that's the way I see it too. This doesn't mean we breed snakes from just anyone into the animals we currently have in our collections though.
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

>>Rainer, I agree on that but that was way back then.Once even one real hypo FL. was crossed with a lav or whiteside etc.. they are all in one basket now.I really don't think anybody (not even you but correct me if I am wrong) has kept the lines seperate.
>>

I've kept mine separate, some from even before the first hypos showed up. and I'll bet I know some others that have, although they may not frequent internet forums.

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Lindsay Pike
Urotopia Uromastyx

Shannon, I will drink to that!!! Of all the posts on this subject, this one represents my opinion to a tee! I have the morphs, I catch my own stock, I probably will run into the "this guy does both so you can't trust his stock" scenario, but to the people that know what's up, they will ultimately decide to trust you or not. A day in the field with anyone knowledgeable would put to rest where the stock originated from.There are two kinds of herp afficianados here, field herpers and herpers that work from inside the concrete jungle out of deli cups. I suppose I am both now, I love both the wild types and some of the morphs, but for me, you can never quite duplicate what comes from locality stock unless you are working with locality stock. Rainer and Shannon and Doug, amongst others have an uncanny ability to spot "something in the woodpile". I think most of the time they are right on the money, having seen so many animals in hand. From a photo, you can't tell nearly as much.I hope that you will be able to tell what I have from the experience of seeing the animals for yourself from the field. That is what TexMexHerps will be about. Heck, I am even kicking around the idea of taking people out to legally collect their own examples of a native species down the line.
I just don't see any reason to get your feathers in a ruffle over something you cannot prove if you are selling them with all the info you have. Buyer, beware! The only way you are going to get what you want with 100% accuracy is to collect it for yourself, after that it is a trust issue. I have no problems buying what I like from Peter or Tom, because I understand love for what each does, individually.
I have goini because I like the patternless and striped variation. I like them for what they look like. I wouldn't cross them into floridana, but probably have some in the woodpile, lol!
I think this debate is pointless and belongs elsewhere. It is a kingsnake, but we are going faaaar off track, imho.

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Todd Hughes

Todd,
I am flying out to Calif in may for a week of collecting in the deserts, mountains and can't wait. I have my spots which I am hoping are still virgin. It will be like taking candy from a baby....or err something like that..rolleyes:

Anyway it has been a while for me and field "observing" aka herping was always in my blood first and still is foremost. I am just spoiled from the west coast seirras and deserts that I don't bother with anything on the east coast.

MAn I am EXCITED. Can you tell. Yipppeee!
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

Bluerosy...who shamelessly takes every opportunity he can to post a picture of his Peabino.

I hear ya Rainer, someday I will make it to the Golden State, this year it is Mexico and west Texas, possibly a quick trip to talk with Frank and Hugh and see some splendida variation with green rats on the side, lol!
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Todd Hughes

he tom...
What is the purpose of this type of post.

>>> it was meant to show some characteristics in snakes that have questionable backgrounds like the GC snow, thats it.
,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com