Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Don, I read the post on the zig zag that looks stripe, it brings to mind a post you made some time back about 4 ways to get to a snake that looks like a yellow rat snake.

With so many true mutations, and add in variants of each, and normals. Where will we end up in 10 years or so? I'm retired, I help an old friend at his shop, we did herps since day one in 1966, but what can a person do that does not know the genetics of a snake he gets? We'll get a snake in, and we turn to a few guys we know are good to help, but If I get a snake from a kid, that got it from a friend, that thinks he got it from a show, the best I can do is say its a corn. Even then we had 4 emory/anerys in, they all looked different and I got different advice from key people on what they were. And whether people want to admit this a lot of snake end up to the average guy that dumps them in 2 years. Many of the people in here are a lot more dedicated to corns, and herps than most. So I see the market where there is a "corn doe". Ok, that was a bit corny lol. But as the years roll on it just gets worse. Not to mention hybrids entering in the factor.

With even long term breeders (not you lol) making naming errors, I see a real need for two things. One, standard use of naming of morphs. Even reverse okeetee and albino and amel morph confuse the average person. Everyone please PICK ONE!
Two, once a corn has an unknown identity it must be labeled "unknown". The trouble is, the average guy breeding 2 snakes takes his clutch to a show or shop, and someone slaps a label on them.

NOW, I must say I've been guilty of this. But someone in here has taught me a lot, and has even gotten terse with me about doing it proper. I can not name him, but he knows who he is, right Timothy Spuckler.

But 10 years from now so many corns floating with so many names. Shows and bad shops mislabeling them even if by honest error. I see a very confused market, or markets. Pure breeds, and mutts. I hate to use that word, but it is true.

Any advice, that will help in all markets?
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com

The very unfortunate part to all this is, things will ONLY get worse,...MUCH worse as time goes on, and ESPECIALLY with all the random, reckless abandon when it comes to peoples breeding choices.

You can't just wake up one day and be a Brain Surgeon, or a Nuclear Physicist either, but ANYONE can wake up one morning and decide to throw any combination of adult snakes together and produce offspring. Today, not many people want to learn alot about what they are doing, BEFORE they do it,......they just want to DO!........these people won't be reading, or trying to learn more about different species and subspecies, they will just continue "throwing" random combinations of snakes together in hopes of producing offspring with GLOWING NEON LIGHTS!

One other important fact here is All these unidentifiable animals that get produced have to end up somewhere,.....WHERE you say?.........mixing in with other peoples collections throughout the world.
then they get bred to "whatever", by whoever AGAIN, and so on, and so on, and so on.........that is a "wheel" that will NEVER stop turning.

I've told people this many times before,.....it won't be long at all before we go to reptile shows and just see animals in deli cups simply labeled........"snake".

best regards Big Tom!, ~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I'm going to go back to my cop academy days for a sec. Four levels of culpability in Ohio. Purposely, knowingly recklessly and negligently.

IMO ONLY! (Full legal disclaimer)
Negligent breeders I would say are my newbie customers. Three to 6 years under their belts and "I'm a breeder". Ignorance, in the proper definition of the word, and maybe avoidance or laziness to learn more.

To be expected to a degree. Like 3rd graders.

Reckless breeders are the true idiots out there. The walk in to me and want the biggest meanest snake I have. I love to have a larger African rock on hand for these wastes of genetics. I get the snake close enough to the guy, so he screams like a sissy in front of his girlfriend. She laughs, he's pissed and I pray they walk out. I've honestly heard our owner say "I'm not selling you anything". I can ramble all day on these nuts. Sad when they breed anything, including themselves.

Knowingly breeders never quite have the intent to do to much wrong, but (single example) they have some real nice corns, so they call them okeetees. I always say I am honest. I am guilty. But I now call them lookatees, and try to explain phase verse locale. I was out of herps for many many years. I'm still getting caught up on what is what. It makes it hard for me as I try to learn enough about 2856 leo gecko names, 187 corn snake names, 746 beardie names, 28476 ball python names. Oh, I plead guilty already, but I'm on probation!

Purposely breeders, are the slick Willy's out there that, know how to breed snake that look close enough to something else out of what they have to make more money. Also hybrids that are not sold as such. These are to me the most dangerous. Why? Because they often are the trusted guy many people get a snake from, and if a mutt, it hoses up many other honest breeder collects. Whether it be mutt alterna, or , or, ok to many to list. When these guys are found out, they need to be whooped. We had a guy a few years back at the Cleveland show soaking his ball pythons in orange Gatorade just after a shed. That's purposely. That guy has not been seen in some time either?
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com

There was a guy at a show many years ago, that got caught trying to sell a Cal. King that was soaked in concentrated green food coloring to get more money for it!..LOL

If THAT don't "take the cake", I don't know what does!..LOL

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

My response is in CAPS:

Posted by: HerpZillA at Fri Jan 11 19:02:34 2008

Don, I read the post on the zig zag that looks stripe, it brings to mind a post you made some time back about 4 ways to get to a snake that looks like a yellow rat snake.

With so many true mutations, and add in variants of each, and normals. Where will we end up in 10 years or so? I'm retired, I help an old friend at his shop, we did herps since day one in 1966, but what can a person do that does not know the genetics of a snake he gets? We'll get a snake in, and we turn to a few guys we know are good to help, but If I get a snake from a kid, that got it from a friend, that thinks he got it from a show, the best I can do is say its a corn. Even then we had 4 emory/anerys in, they all looked different and I got different advice from key people on what they were. And whether people want to admit this a lot of snake end up to the average guy that dumps them in 2 years. Many of the people in here are a lot more dedicated to corns, and herps than most. So I see the market where there is a "corn doe". Ok, that was a bit corny lol. But as the years roll on it just gets worse. Not to mention hybrids entering in the factor.

With even long term breeders (not you lol) making naming errors, I see a real need for two things. One, standard use of naming of morphs. Even reverse okeetee and albino and amel morph confuse the average person. Everyone please PICK ONE!

NATURALLY, I AGREE. ABSOLUTELY ANY ANIMAL SPECIES YOU BREED OVER AND OVER WILL EVENTUALLY REVEAL ITS MUTATIONS. THOSE MUTATIONS ARE CONTAINED WITHIN THE DNA OF ALL SPECIES. THEY JUST HAVE TO FIND THE RIGHT MATE TO SHOW US WHAT THEY'RE HIDING. OF COURSE, WE'RE SPEEDING THAT PROCESS ARTIFICIALLY, SINCE MOST OF WHAT WE PRODUCE WOULDN'T SURVIVE A WEEK IN THE WILD. SURELY OVER THE MILLENIA, ALL MUTATIONS OF ALL ANIMALS HAVE DEBUTED, BUT BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T HAVE TRADITIONAL GARB, THEY PERISHED BEFORE THEIR NEW LOOKS TOOK HOLD.

IN PARAKEETS, THERE WERE FEW OTHER SPECIES TO MUDDY THE WATER. I'M SURE SOMEONE DID SOME HYBRIDIZATION WITH THOSE, BUT IT'S NOT LIKE THERE ARE ALOT OF CHOICES TO BREED TO PARAKEETS. LIKE GUPPIES, THERE WERE ENOUGH MUTATIONS IN PARAKEETS THAT THEY DID NOT NEED TO CLIMB THE FAMILY TREES OF OTHER SPECIES TO MAKE DIFFERENT LOOKING SPECIMENS. SO, HERE WE ARE. NOT ONLY HAVE WE BRED ENOUGH CORNS TO REVEAL some OF THE MUTATIONS IN THIS SNAKE, BUT SOME OF THE MUTATIONS NOT ONLY MODIFY VIA BREEDING TO OTHER COLORS AND PATTERNS, BUT SOME OF THEM CREATE "GATEWAY" MUTATIONS. SOME NOT ONLY HAVE VARIATIONS WITHIN THEIR MUTATION, BUT WHEN OUTBRED TO OTHER MUTATIONS, THEY SYNERGISTICALLY YIELD YET ANOTHER MUTATION. TAKING AN EXAMPLE FROM OTHER SNAKE SPECIES, WE ARE ALSO GOING TO SEE SUPER FORMS OF SOME OF THESE MUTATIONS.

ALL THIS SOUNDS FRANKENSTEINish, BUT IT GETS WORSE WHEN UNSCRUPULOUS PEOPLE INTENTIONALLY (and usually fraudulently) HYBRIDIZE CORNS, WITHOUT SAYING THEY DID. GENETIC POLLUTION SOMETIMES HAS INNOCENT BEGINNINGS WHEN SOMEONE PICKS UP AN ODD LOOKING "CORN" IN A PET STORE (OR AT A REPTILE EXPO) AND BREEDS IT TO THIS OR THAT CORN, ONLY TO PRODUCE SOMETHING VERY DIFFERENT LOOKING. THEY HAD NO WAY OF KNOWING IT WASN'T A PURE CORN. IS IT PURE CORN OR NOT? IT SEEMS THAT THE COLLECTIVE ANSWER IN OUR INDUSTRY IS, "who cares?". I DON'T MIND SOME OF THE EXISTING POPULAR MORPHS BEING HYBRIDS, (IF EVERYONE ACCEPTS THEM AS PURE CORNS), BUT I GET IRATE WHEN SOMEONE INTENTIONALLY POOPS IN THE POOL. THE gene POOL. YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN.

Two, once a corn has an unknown identity it must be labeled "unknown". The trouble is, the average guy breeding 2 snakes takes his clutch to a show or shop, and someone slaps a label on them.

IT DOES HAPPEN, BUT TO ME, THE WORST THING THAT'S HAPPENING OUT THERE IS PEOPLE THINKING THEY HAVE A NEW MORPH AND GIVE THEIRS A NAME; ONLY TO FIND OUT LATER THERE ARE ALREADY TWO OTHER NAMES FOR THE SAME "MORPH". THIS POINTS TO YOUR COMMENT, TOM, ABOUT NEEDING A STANDARD. THIS INDUSTRY IS TOO FRAGMENTED TO PULL THAT OFF RIGHT NOW. TOO MANY DIFFERENT FORUMS, WITH PEOPLE THAT THINK THEIR FORUMS ARE THE ONLY ONES ALLOWED TO SET STANDARDS.

NOW, I must say I've been guilty of this. But someone in here has taught me a lot, and has even gotten terse with me about doing it proper. I can not name him, but he knows who he is, right Timothy Spuckler.

But 10 years from now so many corns floating with so many names. Shows and bad shops mislabeling them even if by honest error. I see a very confused market, or markets. Pure breeds, and mutts. I hate to use that word, but it is true.

Any advice, that will help in all markets?

JUST WHAT YOU SEE IN CAPS ON THIS POST. I DON'T SEE THIS GETTING FIXED ANYTIME SOON. TOO MANY CHEFS IN THE KITCHEN TO GET DINNER SERVED PROPERLY (if ya know what I mean).

LOTS OF RAMBLING HERE, BUT I'M GETTING IT OUTTA MY SYSTEM FOR THE THREE WEEKS I WASN'T TOILING OVER MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF SNAKES. IN ANOTHER FEW DAYS, THE BREEDERS WAKE UP AND I'LL DUCK BACK INTO OBSCURITY. SORRY THIS IS SO WORDY.

DON
South Mountain Reptiles

In short, I am the king of rambles. I pride myself in herp stories too. Real ones. Not up to JOhn O H.s standards but who is.

Nice responce and not wordy at all to me. I hope you have a nice breeding season. Snakes too.
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com

When did you put em down? I assume you probably don't wake everybody up at once but do it in stages? I put all the colubrids down the first of Dec, and wasn't planning to start wake-ups for another three weeks.
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Brad Chambers

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Your brumation is a little short, but I'm sure you'll have no problems relative to duration of brumation. I've talked to breeders that brumated for one month, that didn't have problems, but I stop short of recommending that. 2.5 to three months is recommended. Mine went down in October last year.
South Mountain Reptiles

Thanks Don-

As you know, it's sort of a problem getting them cold enough that early in the season here in the Hill Country. We had a lot of warm (even hot!) weather in October and November this year. Do you air condition to get them cold enough in October? I know here we had enough trouble keeping them cold in december lol...
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Brad Chambers

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

As you say, it's tough to let MoM do it (Mother Nature). I must use air conditioners now, or it's just to wishy-washy, trying to get cold enough for them. If you rely on Nature out here in the Hill Country of Texas, you're forced to brumate from mid December to late January, with lots of warm days in-between.

AC for me.
South Mountain Reptiles

My min max thermo indicates that it's been staying mostly in the mid 60s, with only occasional forays to 70-72 at midday. But probably next year I'll air condition.
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Brad Chambers

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

For most Texas serpents, that's fine, but if you have corns, they really should be lower than mid 60s for most of the brumation period. I average 57F, but I prefer 50F-55F.
South Mountain Reptiles

The one thing I miss about upstate NY is the ease of brumation. That said, don't you state in your book that temps in the mid 60s are adequate for brumating corn snakes (with the shorter brumation period I'm using)? If not, there are other arrangements I can put in place (with a little bit of trouble LOL).
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Brad Chambers

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

The book is right. I just told you what I prefer. The next book will go into much more detail. In the first book, they cut out much of what I wanted people to read. Low to mid 60s if fine. It's just not optimal. My hibernaculum goes down to the mid 30s several times a year.

Don
South Mountain Reptiles

Wow- mid 30s! That's even colder than mine got up in New York!

Well this is a pretty good trial-40 breeder corns. I'll let everyone know how it goes. They seem to have settled down well, and so far haven't lost much weight at all. I do have an area that stays mostly in the 50s for my mountain kings and hogs-it would be cramped to try to lever the corns in there as well...
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Brad Chambers

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Don, I've heard of people run old culvert pipe underground for a good length whether straight or zigzag with a little space. Once your down 10' in almost any area it's about 55 degrees. Just use 2 fans to circulate air to cool it down. Mainly used here as wine chambers as we don't have many hills to make cave. Humidity would be higher than AC, as AC is also a dehumidifier.

No idea no heat loss and gain and how much you need to cool cubic feet per degree loss needed. More of a yankee makeshift quasi-geothermal unit. Or hillbilly AC.

This is an Abilene AC unit for a car!

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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com

I know a guy that did that about 20 years ago to cool his mice. He buried a mobile home underground and buried the conduit all through his back yard. He said he had mildew problems. I think it's like a glass if iced tea sweating. This would be the inverse of that? Cold on the outside and warm on the inside. The air that recirculates will leave cause condensation inside the conduit?? Passive line driers perhaps? Dunno. If it's working for your friend, that's all that matters.

Thanks.
South Mountain Reptiles

Got to love the inventive mind. I think the guy here also brings in some refresh air. Personnally I'd hate the humidity even without the possible mold issue.

Maybe this guy was his counterpart in life?

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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com

I am new to cornsnakes and I kinda would maybe like to breed them down the road but how can someone like me know what i am getting these days. I mean I am sure if I were to order from say Don or Kathy then its pretty good odds I am getting what I am told. However sometimes it is really hard at shows and pet stores to know what is going on. It actually is really hard for someone like me to know what I am getting due to my lack of experience. So what is someone like me to do.
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My inside problems only effect the outside world....And I am ok with that.

Well, I work at a herp shop. You want a snake and know it's genetics well, you buy from a breeder that knows its dad and mom snake and grandparents. You mentioned 2 top breeders, and there are more.

If you just want a corn, and like its color, a shop or a show might be for you.

Much like buying a dog, I tell all my callers looking for them GO to the dog shows to meet breeders. I much different issue in that you would want to avoid puppy mills. But similar in doing your research and find what you want. Many people want a nice dog. Check the pound and paper. If you want a stud Lab, find a repretable breeder.

Keys avoid a skinny sanke or a tiny baby. People seem to want to nurse things to life. Then just a little research you will find a color or pattern that floats your boat. Then learn is it something more common like an amel, or complex. If complex don't see me. If people know what they want, and want a true genetic line I point them to good breeds I trust. I'd rather have a happy customer I can sell supplies to, than someone that I'll never see again.

Good luck.
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com

In short if you are looking for genetic stock that is reliable/unpolluted then talk to a reputable breeder. There are many many people breeding snakes that keep their genetic stock reiable/pure.

The well known and respected breeders are among these but by no means are they the only ones. But they can point you to others they trust themselves if you want specimens from different sources. And I have yet to find a well respected breeder that was not very helpfull when I went to them asking questions or looking for several breeders working with speific morphs.

Not to mention the fact that you could probably be directed to several reliable sources just by word of mouth here on the forum.

Sean.
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1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

ok, maybe I missed the point of the original post, and if that's the case then I apologize. But I saw it as complaining by older breeders about new breeders doing what the old breeders have been doing all along...seems to me like some (and I'm not pointing at anyone here) are just mad because they have more competition out there now then 10 years ago or 20 years ago. Unless you work ONLY with true natural locality morphs (okeetee, miami, etc.) then you have done the same thing that you are complaining about. Your saying it's alright for YOU to mix species to create an english bulldog, but NOT alright for someone else to take that bulldog and mix it with a mastiff to create a boxer! I see too much arrogance here in this thread.
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-David

Check out my pet pics at:
http://www.myspace.com/obx_fisherman

1.0 ball python (Pandora - don't ask)
1.0 argentine boa (Prometheus)
0.1 hogg island boa (Andromeda)
0.0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (Inara)
1.0 kenyan sand boa (Diablo)
1.0 normal corn snake(Cypress)
0.1 amery. corn snake (Morgan LaFay) RIP
0.0.2 baby corns (Romulus and Remus)
- 1 normal, 1 ghost
0.0.1 banded cali. kingsnake (Cain)
1.0 tangerine honduran milksnake (Narcissus)
0.0.1 snow corn snake (Valkyrie)
1.0 amazon tree boa (Pegasus)
1.0 colombian boa (Poseidon)
0.1 albino san diego gopher snake (Athena)
0.0.1 sandfish skink (Slick)
0.0.1 fire skink (Phoenix)
1.0 dog (Luke)

the wife's pets:
1.0 bearded dragon (Leonidas)
1.1 ferrets (Ares, Enyo)
1.2 cats (Galahad, Ripley and Sassy)
0.1 Boxer (Zoe)

NEWEST ADDITIONS:
1.0 adult Dumeril's boa
0.0.1 baby yellow amazon tree boa

"...are just mad because they have more competition out there now then 10 years ago or 20 years ago."

Not really. As a breeder who's done some of the largest reptile trade shows out there, I can tell you that most of my customers are other breeders. The hobby has expanded significanty in the last 20 years. I've made a lot of good friends who are also my competition.

"Unless you work ONLY with true natural locality morphs (okeetee, miami, etc.) then you have done the same thing that you are complaining about."

No again. There's no way of telling that if a snake taken from the wild has genes from another species or subspecies in it. Natural intergrades and on occasion hybrids, have been found in the wild. You can't really test if a snake is "pure," as there aren't any baseline data to do that. In addition, if it were possible, there'd be several "degrees of purity."

"Your saying it's alright for YOU to mix species to create an english bulldog..."

All domestic dogs are the same species (Canis lupus). What corn snake breeders do is use selective breeding to create new morphs. That's exactly how English bulldogs were created.

Tim

Third Eye

so if you believe that there is no way to tell any "pure" genes even from wild-caught specimens, then you're supporting my arguement even more. And last time I checked, all cornsnakes WERE from the same species, so my dog analogy is accurate, but I guess it's more than you can understand, or are willing to understand. There's nothing that I can't stand more than a bunch of hypocrites...I thought these kingsnake forums were better than that, but I guess I was wrong. Just keep thinking you're god of your own little world, thats what you'll good at!
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-David

Check out my pet pics at:
http://www.myspace.com/obx_fisherman

1.0 ball python (Pandora - don't ask)
1.0 argentine boa (Prometheus)
0.1 hogg island boa (Andromeda)
0.0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (Inara)
1.0 kenyan sand boa (Diablo)
1.0 normal corn snake(Cypress)
0.1 amery. corn snake (Morgan LaFay) RIP
0.0.2 baby corns (Romulus and Remus)
- 1 normal, 1 ghost
0.0.1 banded cali. kingsnake (Cain)
1.0 tangerine honduran milksnake (Narcissus)
0.0.1 snow corn snake (Valkyrie)
1.0 amazon tree boa (Pegasus)
1.0 colombian boa (Poseidon)
0.1 albino san diego gopher snake (Athena)
0.0.1 sandfish skink (Slick)
0.0.1 fire skink (Phoenix)
1.0 dog (Luke)

the wife's pets:
1.0 bearded dragon (Leonidas)
1.1 ferrets (Ares, Enyo)
1.2 cats (Galahad, Ripley and Sassy)
0.1 Boxer (Zoe)

NEWEST ADDITIONS:
1.0 adult Dumeril's boa
0.0.1 baby yellow amazon tree boa

do not come out right or understood in a forum. I'm not siding anywhere. But I think a debate is one thing, a nasty fame is something else.

AND! I'm not sticking up for anyone here, just the forum.
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com

In general the regulars on this forum are very helpful, patient, understanding, and forgiving. As such there is no reason for people to get pissed off, hurt, or in any other manner bent out of shape.

That being said, please show the common courtesy(everyone) to try and understand what the person actually meens instead of assuming they meen something you do not like.

We are all here to help each other and further the hobby. Towards that goal this is the best and most pleasant forum site I have found on the web so far.

Sean.
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1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

Plus even if we have differences, that's what life is about. A different view does not mean all to much. And sometimes, 1 is right and someone is wrong, others both can be right, and both can be wrong.

I mean I'm never wrong, but hay, ya know thats just the way it is! lol

A little attenpt at some humor,, ya all must know by now I'm a smart arse at heart.

Wu wei (look it up), I wish I was better at it myself.
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com

Just kidding

But seriously you need to be able to carry on a civil conversation with someone else before you will be able to get anyone to listen to you much less agree with you.

From what you said it sounds like you are missunderstanding what was being said.

The refference to naturally occuring intergrades and the rare naturally occuring hybrid was not saying that impure genetics is a good thing. What was being pointed out is that there is no such thing as absolute purity in these genetics other then at a hypothetical level. But that doesn't meen that we should then intentionaly make the genetics as impure/muddy as possible. It is in our own interest, for genetic accuracy/predictability, to try and minimize the level of impurities in the gene pool.

His refference to the old school breeders helping us relative newcomers along is from my experience completely accurate. Even when I have had arguments with the experts they have still been very helpfull and supportive.

Your "all cornsnakes WERE from the same species" comment is blatantly false in the laymans use of the terms "cornsnake" and "species". There are several very prevalent lines/morphs of cornsnake which are known to be intentional hybrids. While they are know to be hybrids they are still considered by most people to be cornsnakes. To name a few more popular ones: Creamsicle, Rootbeer, Ultramel, Junglecorn, Cinamon, and even the less popular Turbocorn's.

The distinction between that was being made is that non-hybrid corn morphs can be viewed as being the same level of difference as dog breeds where as the hybrid corns can be viewed as more akin to crossing a dog and a hyena.

All that being said I am not against someones right to creat a hybrid and I like some of them. But I do abhor the lack of full disclosure of genetic history/makeup in the hybrids and their progeny. not to mention someone crossing in genetics from another species just to cross the trait over or hunt for morphs instead of taking the time to line breed a phase or fieldherping for a new trait.

Sean.
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1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

I know this is a truly silly question as it may change next year. But is a rosy a corn and a locale only, or an actual sub species?

wei wu wei,, really, the next generation of wu wei. Cool stuff
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com

LOL, in terms of current technical definitions I do not know. But questions like that are part of the reason i used the qualifier "laymans terms" in my comments of species genetics. It all does change constantly but if there is full disclosure it miniizes the difficulties created by those changes.

Sean.
-----
1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

I'd love to post a snake, as:

Probable corn, as of 1-12-08 taxonomy, barring any reclassification changes which this seller is not responsible for. Possible hets for most anything, including unknown genetics to make said snake a hybrid/intergrade by various standards. Said snake is sold "corn-is, as is",, seller is not responsible for any future offspring of undesirable type, and "undesirable" is considered subjective by most standards. Since most standards are subjective the said seller is not responsible for said standards.

Now for said the health, sex, length and eating habits.
Broadband is required as this part is quite lengthy.

OK, I'm just having a bit of fun.
I hope!
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com

As of years back(forget what year off the top of my head) they where thought to be, and classified taxonomically as a subspecies of cornsnake(Elaphe guttata rosacea) these were distinct looking animals from the upper to lower keys, with somewhat different "looks" coming from different island keys.

They are noted for their more subdued black coloration, generally paler coloration. Many of them have a faded, or undiscernable "chevron"(arrowhead) on the top of the head.

Another distinct difference can be a lack, or lesser amount of side blotching, as well as a great reduction in "checkerboarding" on the belly. Some locales can even have a "silvery" gray mixed into the color scheme.

Good examples of these are very interesting looking, and definitely distinct from "mainland" cornsnakes. There are breeders today that still try to keep these lines as "pure" as possible, even from Key to Key.

Taxonomically however, they have in recent years been re-thought again to be a variant of cornsnake from their southernmost range.

I used to have some KILLER examples years ago, but have no photo of them...GRRR!

I don't see as many being sold as I did in past years, but I have seen some nice lines for sale once in a while.

~best regards, ~Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

well, I never meant to get an arguement started...but at the same time it's just my nature to point out hypocrazy when I see it.
as for what you said,

Your "all cornsnakes WERE from the same species" comment is blatantly false "

you are the one in error, as the definition of species is as follows: A group of organisms belong to the same biological species if they are capable of interbreeding to produce fertile offspring.
you can't just use "layman" terms, but as everyone should know those can be different from person to person. And using scientific names of snakes to determine if they are in fact of the same species or not is always a mistake, if that's how you determined your reasoning. Scientific names really don't hold any weight at all as they are constantly changing, and people suggesting changes that some use and some don't. How many different scientific names do they have for cornsnakes right now anyways?

I can hold a civil conversation, but when the conversation starts with an attack on others, especially when calling them "idiots" and suggesting they be removed from the gene pool, I don't think many consider that a "civil" conversation. If it was two people disagreeing back and forth, that's one thing, but you all attacked people who aren't even present to defend themselfs. And how can you all fuss about genetic purity when you can't even be sure what you have and what you are creating?? Most people who are buying the animals don't really care, they just want a pretty pet, and that's the wonderful thing about all the different color patterns and designs. Since there are no "copyrights" on the naming of the "morphs", no one has the right to complain about inconsistant naming. If you all feel that needs to happen, there is a solution: form an organization similar to the AKC to set naming standards, and set standards like "ASC (American Snake Club) registering"...that way if you go to an expo and see snakes for sale, and they have ASC certificates, then you know their genetics have been verified, similar to how they do dogs. That would be hard now, as it needed to of been done before ANY of these morphs where started, but something could be implimented now.
-----
-David

Check out my pet pics at:
http://www.myspace.com/obx_fisherman

1.0 ball python (Pandora - don't ask)
1.0 argentine boa (Prometheus)
0.1 hogg island boa (Andromeda)
0.0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (Inara)
1.0 kenyan sand boa (Diablo)
1.0 normal corn snake(Cypress)
0.1 amery. corn snake (Morgan LaFay) RIP
0.0.2 baby corns (Romulus and Remus)
- 1 normal, 1 ghost
0.0.1 banded cali. kingsnake (Cain)
1.0 tangerine honduran milksnake (Narcissus)
0.0.1 snow corn snake (Valkyrie)
1.0 amazon tree boa (Pegasus)
1.0 colombian boa (Poseidon)
0.1 albino san diego gopher snake (Athena)
0.0.1 sandfish skink (Slick)
0.0.1 fire skink (Phoenix)
1.0 dog (Luke)

the wife's pets:
1.0 bearded dragon (Leonidas)
1.1 ferrets (Ares, Enyo)
1.2 cats (Galahad, Ripley and Sassy)
0.1 Boxer (Zoe)

NEWEST ADDITIONS:
1.0 adult Dumeril's boa
0.0.1 baby yellow amazon tree boa

I appreciate civil debate and would like to understand exactly what you were trying to say then. Also I should note that my response was directly to what you posted and to the previous post that I assumed you were responding to.

What exactly is it you are thinking the older breeders did in the past but which they do not want current breeders to do? I assume this action is the hypocrasy you were acusing them of?

I assume you are not trying to argue that genetic mutations(morphs) are only generated by hybridization. Is that assumption correct?

For clarification of my statements: I referred to "layman's terms" because while specific and precise definitions are the ideal you must, in order to have a meaningful dialog, use the contextual meanings understood by the audience. In this case that is largely, but not exclusively, the general public which is not as a whole well informed on current taxonomy or the definitions from it.

My comment on species, given the context I stated originally, was not in error. The definition you gave is pretty much the one we get in elementary school but as we learn more about different types of animals that definition tends to get replaced in common usage by the idea of animals that are similar and which breed together regularly in nature being the same species. The definition is blurred further as we see more and more animals being successfully bred together for which we used to think their genes incompatible. I have even been hearing of people working on bridging the live bearing to egg laying barrier.
Even you in your earlier post made use of this same laymans definition when you said "Your saying it's alright for YOU to mix species to create an english bulldog, but NOT alright for someone else to take that bulldog and mix it with a mastiff to create a boxer!". I am not quoting this to throw an accussation but merely to point out to you how pervasive that definition is and thereby why it's use, in this context, was appropriate. While I agree with you that taxonomy is constantly changing and it causes problems for people to figure out, that does not meen you throw out the baby with the bath water and just quit trying to keep as accurate of genetic information as is possible.

With the last paragraph, of the post I am currently replying to, are you sure you are reffering to a post in this thread? I read back through it starting with the first one, which you accused of the attacks, and I may have missed it but I could find no instances of the attacks you mentioned. In specific I could find no place where anyone was called an "idiot" or where someone advocated removal from the gene pool. If I am just missing it then I apologize and please point out where it is to me. Also to who were you refferring when you said people were being attacked when they were not even arround to defend themselves? I'm not in favor of personal attacks or flames but I seem to have missed the individuals you were refferring to.

As far as a organization to keep track of "pure breeds" like the AKC, UKC, EKC, and many other organizations do for dogs I would fully support that as an option. Further that option is not impossible as many of the above mentioned kennel clubs were organized centuries and in some cases millenia after the breed in question first was being captively bred. The key is to have a precise set of criteria for which you will distinguish if a specimen is a member of that breed/species/whatever and to have a finite period, at the registeries inception, during which you have open books(any animal passing inspection is registered). After that you either have closed books, like the AKC, or you have only very specific criteria for when a new specimen can be added to the books(like inspection for imported/WC specimens or something). I think I have heard that there is a cornsnake registery which at least to some degree would fill this role but I have not checked out the specifics yet.

Basically the argument for keeping the genetic pools of 'species' of snakes is not the arguement that there can not have ever been a drop of impure blood but is instead the argument that we should try to minimize the ammount of that impure blood in the animals unless they are labeled as hybrids or whatever.

Any clarification or information would be welcome,

Sean.
-----
1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

MY RESPONSE IN CAPS

I appreciate civil debate and would like to understand exactly what you were trying to say then. Also I should note that my response was directly to what you posted and to the previous post that I assumed you were responding to.

What exactly is it you are thinking the older breeders did in the past but which they do not want current breeders to do? I assume this action is the hypocrasy you were acusing them of?

I assume you are not trying to argue that genetic mutations(morphs) are only generated by hybridization. Is that assumption correct?

For clarification of my statements: I referred to "layman's terms" because while specific and precise definitions are the ideal you must, in order to have a meaningful dialog, use the contextual meanings understood by the audience. In this case that is largely, but not exclusively, the general public which is not as a whole well informed on current taxonomy or the definitions from it.

My comment on species, given the context I stated originally, was not in error. The definition you gave is pretty much the one we get in elementary school but as we learn more about different types of animals that definition tends to get replaced in common usage by the idea of animals that are similar and which breed together regularly in nature being the same species.

LIKE YOU SAID, WE ALL LEARNED THE DEFINITION OF THE WORD SPECIES IN GRADE SCHOOL, SO IT IS NOT NEW TO ANYONE. YOU CAN'T CHANGE ITS DEFINITION AND MEANING JUST TO SATISFY YOUR PERSONAL OPINION ON THE MATTER. IF ALL SNAKES CAN INTERBREED, EVEN EGGLAYERS AND LIVEBEARERS, AND PRODUCE OFFSPRING THAT ARE FERTILE, THEN MAYBE THERE SHOULD ONLY BE ONE SINGLE SPECIES OF SNAKES. FROM WHAT I'VE SEEN, THERE ARE SOME DIFFERENT SNAKES THAT CAN'T BREED, THUS THEY SHOULD BE IN SEPARATE SPECIES, AND IF IT'S A SITUATION WHERE SPECIMEN A CAN BREED WITH SPECIMEN B, AND SPECIMEN B CAN BREED WITH SPECIMEN C, BUT SPECIMEN A CAN'T BREED WITH SPECIMEN C, THEY THERE IS A PROBLEM AND A CHANGE TO THE DEFINITION MIGHT BE IN ORDER. BUT I HAVEN'T HEARD OF THAT TYPE OF SITUATION HAPPENING IN SNAKES, OR ANYTHING ELSE.
YOU WON'T SEE ENGLISH MASTIFFS AND CHIHUAHUAS BREEDING OFTEN, BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THEY CAN'T AND THAT THEY WON'T PRODUCE FERTILE OFFSPRING. BY YOUR REASONING, THESE TWO DOGS SHOULD BE DIFFERENT SPECIES. EVEN IF WHAT YOU BELIEVE IS THE COMMON BELIEF IN THE HOBBY/BUSINESS, IT DOESN'T MEAN IT IS CORRECT.

The definition is blurred further as we see more and more animals being successfully bred together for which we used to think their genes incompatible. I have even been hearing of people working on bridging the live bearing to egg laying barrier.
Even you in your earlier post made use of this same laymans definition when you said "Your saying it's alright for YOU to mix species to create an english bulldog, but NOT alright for someone else to take that bulldog and mix it with a mastiff to create a boxer!". I am not quoting this to throw an accussation but merely to point out to you how pervasive that definition is and thereby why it's use, in this context, was appropriate. While I agree with you that taxonomy is constantly changing and it causes problems for people to figure out, that does not meen you throw out the baby with the bath water and just quit trying to keep as accurate of genetic information as is possible.

LET ME MAKE THIS CLEAR. I AGREE THAT AT LEAST SOME BREEDERS SHOULD TRY TO MAINTAIN PURE BLOODLINES AND GENES, BUT IT IS NOT NECESSARY FOR ALL TO DO SO, AND IT DOES NOT MAKE THEM RECKLESS FOR NOT DOING SO. I REFERENCE DOGS SO OFTEN, BECAUSE THIS HOBBY/BUSINESS IS SO VERY SIMILAR TO THAT HOBBY/BUSINESS NOW. IN DOGS, YOU HAVE THE BREEDERS WHO WORK WITH COLLIES, HUSKYS, BEAGLES, BLOODHOUNDS, ETC. WHO KEEP THOSE BLOODLINES PURE (AS PURE AS POSSIBLE) WHILE OTHERS MIX THEM TO CREATE YORKIEPOOS, ETC. AND THEN YOU HAVE THOSE WHO HAVE MUTTS AND BREED THEM TO CREATE MORE MUTTS. YOU HAVE THE SAME THING IN THIS HOBBY/BUSINESS, AND ALL IS FINE. MANY PEOPLE JUST WANT A FRIENDLY PET WITH NO PLANS OF EVER BREEDING. THE BIGGEST DIFFERENCE BETWEEN DOGS AND SNAKES IN THIS SENSE, IS THAT DOG BREEDS ARE CERTIFIED, AND EITHER YOU CAN PROOF THE BLOODLINE OR YOU CAN'T, ITS FAIRLY CLEAR CUT. WITH SNAKES, NO EFFORT WAS MADE AT THE BEGINNING WHEN MORPHS WHERE FIRST BEING CREATED BY THE OLDER (AND I'M NOT SAYING ANY OF YOU ARE OLD) BREEDERS. THEY ONLY AGREED UPON NAMING AND BLOODLINE BETWEEN FRIENDS, BUT NOT IN A WAY TO MAKE IT CLEAR TO THE MASS BUSINESS. MANY PEOPLE DON'T HAVE A WAY OF KNOWING THE TRUE GENETICS OF THEIR SNAKES BECAUSE THEY WEREN'T PROVIDED BY MANY FROM THE START. THESE NEW BREEDERS THAT ARE JUST GETTING INTO THIS WONDERFUL HOBBY/BUSINESS DON'T HAVE MUCH TO WORK WITH! LIKE MANY SMALL DOG BREEDERS, THEY GET SPECIMENS THAT "LOOK" LIKE AN ANERY CORN AND BREED IT WITH WHAT ALSO LOOKS LIKE AN ANERY CORN FROM ELSEWHERE...IF WHAT COMES OUT ALSO LOOKS LIKE AN ANERY CORN, THEY WILL SELL IT AS THAT BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE, JUST LIKE UNREGESTERED DOGS. THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH IT, BECAUSE AGAIN, MOST PEOPLE JUST WANT A PET. I DO THINK THOUGH THAT JUST LIKE PURE BREED DOGS, THERE SHOULD BE PEOPLE BREEDING PURE BLOODLINES OF SNAKES, ESPECIALLY WITH THE RARER SPECIMENS, LIKE ARGENTINE BOAS AND HOGG ISLAND BOAS JUST TO NAME A FEW. IT WOULD BE AWEFUL IF THEY WERE TO DISAPPEAR FROM EXISTANCE.

With the last paragraph, of the post I am currently replying to, are you sure you are reffering to a post in this thread?

I WAS RESPONDING TO EVERYTHING MENTIONED BEFORE MY POST, NOT JUST THE ORIGINAL ONE. THERE WERE COMMENTS ABOUT "Reckless breeders are the true idiots out there" AND "Sad when they breed anything, including themselves" FROM HERPZILLA BUT THESE ARE JUST TWO OF THEM. THOSE "RECKLESS" BREEDERS ARE PEOPLE LIKE YOU ALL WHO LOVE THE HOBBY AND LOVE WORKING WITH THE ANIMALS (I'M SURE THERE ARE A FEW THAT DON'T CARE ABOUT THEM, ONLY MAKING MONEY, BUT YOU HAVE THAT WITH EVERYTHING, AND IT IS NEVER A MAJORITY OF THE GROUP). MANY ARE PROBABLY NEW LIKE YOU ALL WHERE ONCE, AND DOING WHAT THEY CAN. THIS HOBBY HAS GROWN TREMENDOUSLY IN THE PAST 20 YEARS, BUT ESPECIALLY IN THE PAST 5 OR SO...WITH THIS RUSH OF NEW "FANS" YOU ALSO HAVE NEW PEOPLE WANTING TO BREED AND ENJOY IT.

I read back through it starting with the first one, which you accused of the attacks, and I may have missed it but I could find no instances of the attacks you mentioned. In specific I could find no place where anyone was called an "idiot" or where someone advocated removal from the gene pool. If I am just missing it then I apologize and please point out where it is to me. Also to who were you refferring when you said people were being attacked when they were not even arround to defend themselves? I'm not in favor of personal attacks or flames but I seem to have missed the individuals you were refferring to.

As far as a organization to keep track of "pure breeds" like the AKC, UKC, EKC, and many other organizations do for dogs I would fully support that as an option. Further that option is not impossible as many of the above mentioned kennel clubs were organized centuries and in some cases millenia after the breed in question first was being captively bred. The key is to have a precise set of criteria for which you will distinguish if a specimen is a member of that breed/species/whatever and to have a finite period, at the registeries inception, during which you have open books(any animal passing inspection is registered). After that you either have closed books, like the AKC, or you have only very specific criteria for when a new specimen can be added to the books(like inspection for imported/WC specimens or something). I think I have heard that there is a cornsnake registery which at least to some degree would fill this role but I have not checked out the specifics yet.

Basically the argument for keeping the genetic pools of 'species' of snakes is not the arguement that there can not have ever been a drop of impure blood but is instead the argument that we should try to minimize the ammount of that impure blood in the animals unless they are labeled as hybrids or whatever.

Any clarification or information would be welcome,

I READ THE ORIGINAL POST, AND ALL RESPONSES BEFORE MINE, AND IT SOUNDED LIKE A BUNCH OF OLD MEN SITTING AROUND COMPLAINING ABOUT THE WEATHER (I'M NOT SAYING ANY OF YOU ARE OLD, JUST GIVING AN ANALOGY). AND I TOOK IT AS THEY WERE COMPLAINING ABOUT THE NEW BREEDERS NOT USING ANY CONSISTENCY IN THE NAMING OR NOT KNOWING THE BACKGROUNDS OF THEIR ANIMALS. I SERIOUSLY DOUBT THAT MOST OF YOU STARTED OFF WITH SUCH EXPERT KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT SHOULD BE DONE, AND MANY OF YOU BREED SNAKES WITHOUT COMPLETELY KNOWING WHERE THEY CAME FROM OR THEIR GENETIC BACKGROUND. THESE PEOPLE ARE WORKING WITH WHAT YOU PROVIDED FOR THEM FROM THE BEGINNING. AND MANY OF YOU MIXED DIFFERENT COMBINATIONS TO CREATE SOME OF THE FIRST "MUTTS", AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THE NEWBIES ARE DOING NOW TOO. DON'T CRITICIZE THEM FOR NOT INSTANTLY BE EXPERTS, LIKE I ASSUME YOU WERE AT THE BEGINNING.
I THINK I HAVE BEEN CLEAR ON EVERYTHING
-----
-David

Check out my pet pics at:
http://www.myspace.com/obx_fisherman

1.0 ball python (Pandora - don't ask)
1.0 argentine boa (Prometheus)
0.1 hogg island boa (Andromeda)
0.0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (Inara)
1.0 kenyan sand boa (Diablo)
1.0 normal corn snake(Cypress)
0.1 amery. corn snake (Morgan LaFay) RIP
0.0.2 baby corns (Romulus and Remus)
- 1 normal, 1 ghost
0.0.1 banded cali. kingsnake (Cain)
1.0 tangerine honduran milksnake (Narcissus)
0.0.1 snow corn snake (Valkyrie)
1.0 amazon tree boa (Pegasus)
1.0 colombian boa (Poseidon)
0.1 albino san diego gopher snake (Athena)
0.0.1 sandfish skink (Slick)
0.0.1 fire skink (Phoenix)
1.0 dog (Luke)

the wife's pets:
1.0 bearded dragon (Leonidas)
1.1 ferrets (Ares, Enyo)
1.2 cats (Galahad, Ripley and Sassy)
0.1 Boxer (Zoe)

NEWEST ADDITIONS:
1.0 adult Dumeril's boa
0.0.1 baby yellow amazon tree boa

You are accusing me of doing the exact same thing with definitions as you are. I merely for arguements sake said that even if your definition of species was correct that there still was a problem with the way you were trying to force it on others. The "species" gap has been crossed, namely different species crossbreeding, using current taxonomical deliniation. So you trying to force everyone else to adopt your personal definition is just as bad as using "layman's terms". The reality is that while the definition I mentioned is inadequate and I do not propose it for use as a strict definition it is still as close to being accurate as the elementary school one you are trying to impose.

Secondly there were several questions I tried to clear up that you simply ignored.
Are you arguing that all genetic mutations(morphs) generate from hybridization?
Who was personally being attacked without being arround to defend themselves?

If you want to avoid alot of confusion, especially when you make accusations, then respond to the specific post you are complaining about. From your post above it seems you just got bent outa shape at Herpzilla's post above in a different subthread. If you had responded there alot of clarification could have been unnecesary.

You seem to be taking what Herpzilla said out of context unless there is some communication I do not know of. His post about idiots and breeding was
"Reckless breeders are the true idiots out there. The walk in to me and want the biggest meanest snake I have. I love to have a larger African rock on hand for these wastes of genetics. I get the snake close enough to the guy, so he screams like a sissy in front of his girlfriend. She laughs, he's pissed and I pray they walk out. I've honestly heard our owner say "I'm not selling you anything". I can ramble all day on these nuts. Sad when they breed anything, including themselves."
in which he is clearly reffering to someone who just wants a particular snake because it will be big, mean, and intimidating. I don't think any of us could argue that such a person is your normal hobbyist or that they are even someone we would want in the hobby. people with that mentality are the ones who end up abusing their animals and participating in attrocities like dog fighting.

As far as registeries, as I said, there is no need to start from early on in the hobby so the point about it not already having been started(and implying it's too late) is meaningless. Greyhounds were raised and bred for 1000-2000 years before our current knnel club regsteries were started.

The current generation of breeders(myself included here) are not limited to working with what the previous breeders produced for our projects. Most species of snake I am familliar with have at least a limited number of wild caught individuals allowed, through proper chanels, each year. So someone can easily, with most species, work with original stock if they choose. What is different now is that there are many line bred phases or discovered genetic mutations(almost all from WC stock originally) which were not available in the past. The other difference is that there is an abundance of knowledge out there that was not available in the past.

As far as beginner knowledge I have to say there is a huge difference between responsible husbandry and irresponsible husbandry. I made sure I knew as much as possible and had access to experts/resources before I got ready to start breeding. This is being responsible and anyone who is going to captively propogate animals should be responsible and do the homework beforehand. This is normally the ideal and goal of any animal keeping hobby. Likewise it is irresponsible for someone to try to breed two specimens without knowing as much as is possible about them and their potential requirements. This applies equally to hybrids. I do not say that people should not create and keep hybrids. I simply say that if they are going to breed them or sell them that they use full disclosure of known or suspected genetic background so that the individuals recieving them know, as much as is possible, what exactly they are recieving.

Sean.
-----
1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

"so if you believe that there is no way to tell any "pure" genes even from wild-caught specimens, then you're supporting my arguement even more."

I'm not here to lend support (or lack of it), I'm just presenting the facts. And the fact is that there's no way of telling if somewhere in a wild corn snake's ancestry, there's yellow rat snake, black rat snake, etc. Therefore the assumption that a wild-caught locality corn isn't an intergrade or hybrid is false. One of the biggest complaints against hybrids is that something that isn't pure will find a way into lines of snakes people are working with. My point is that it's probably already happened in nature.

"And last time I checked, all cornsnakes WERE from the same species, so my dog analogy is accurate, but I guess it's more than you can understand, or are willing to understand."
Indeed "pure" corn snakes are the same species. You said "Your (sic) saying it's alright for YOU to mix species to create an english bulldog..." Species weren't mixed to create an English bulldog. I don't recall anyone saying it's OK for them to create a corn snake morph but NOT OK for others to do so, so I don't know what your point is on this one. As I said earlier, I'm just pointing out the facts - corn snakes breeders selectively breed their stock to create morphs. Dog breeders do the same.

"There's nothing that I can't stand more than a bunch of hypocrites..."
Me too. But where's the hypocrisy in my post? I pointed out some facts that are universally accepted: Wild snakes aren't necessarily "pure" and domestic dogs are all the same species. Care to point out what's hypocritical about those statements?

"I thought these kingsnake forums were better than that, but I guess I was wrong."
I think it's the responsibility of these forums to point out factual information, rather than mislead readers.

"Just keep thinking you're god of your own little world, thats what you'll good at!"
Dude, if you're attempting to write something witty, you should at least get your spelling correct. It's not "what you'll good at!" rather "what YOU'RE good at!"

Tim

The dog analogy is no where near accurate. As Tim stated all dogs come from the same species. There is no hybridizing done here unless it's with a wolf, etc.....

Corn snakes bred with other species and then represented as pure corn is what the original post was about. Not about creating new morphs from the same species.

You have the terms morphs and species greatly confused. Morphs are just variants of the same species, ie amel, blood red, hypo stripe etc...... Breeding different species together is what the original poster was talking about NOT breeding different morphs together.

Mixing corns with other SPECIES yields hybrids that are not pure corn....this is what the post is about - people selling corns of questionable lineage as pure corn snakes. I for one do not want any thing other than pure corn in my corn snake collection. This is why I do not own any creams, rootbeers, cinnamons, ultras, jungles etc... though I have THOUGHT about it. This is also why I want to know if there is or isn't any hybridizing with thge animals I have purchased animals.

last thing I say about this...it IS an accurate analogy, but I guess it's too much for many of you to understand. I even told you what the definition of species is, but I guess you're too dumb to understand it. They whole thing wasn't even about that anyways, as that was just an analogy. You all need to get over your egos.
-----
-David

Check out my pet pics at:
http://www.myspace.com/obx_fisherman

1.0 ball python (Pandora - don't ask)
1.0 argentine boa (Prometheus)
0.1 hogg island boa (Andromeda)
0.0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (Inara)
1.0 kenyan sand boa (Diablo)
1.0 normal corn snake(Cypress)
0.1 amery. corn snake (Morgan LaFay) RIP
0.0.2 baby corns (Romulus and Remus)
- 1 normal, 1 ghost
0.0.1 banded cali. kingsnake (Cain)
1.0 tangerine honduran milksnake (Narcissus)
0.0.1 snow corn snake (Valkyrie)
1.0 amazon tree boa (Pegasus)
1.0 colombian boa (Poseidon)
0.1 albino san diego gopher snake (Athena)
0.0.1 sandfish skink (Slick)
0.0.1 fire skink (Phoenix)
1.0 dog (Luke)

the wife's pets:
1.0 bearded dragon (Leonidas)
1.1 ferrets (Ares, Enyo)
1.2 cats (Galahad, Ripley and Sassy)
0.1 Boxer (Zoe)

NEWEST ADDITIONS:
1.0 adult Dumeril's boa
0.0.1 baby yellow amazon tree boa

There is only one EGO being trumpeted here............

No it is not an accurate analogy.............

`
-----
Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com

Its not always easy to get the gist of a post. Sometimes you actually need to read it a few times, paying careful attention to what's being said.
Then, it's often just as important that you reread your own post before you send it. This way you can correct any misspellings and decide if the tone of your post came across the way you inyended.
Again, try to read for comprehension, then edit your own posts.

-A friendly, constructive criticism
-----
Austin Herp. Soc.

See, it's not just you who misspells things....
-----
Austin Herp. Soc.

debate, but it very interesting for me. I learn a lot in these types of threads.

I just hope everyone can realize in a debate tempers may flare, and a mood is created that was not intentionally desired.

So, I hope after the dust settles, everyone is still friends and realizes it's just a difference of opinions. Friendships whether on line or in person are far more important.

With that said (ya just know I have to add some humor) I kept picturing everyone sitting at a large bar with this topic springing up. And all the non herp people just staring in wonder. "WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE?"

We are a people with a passion for herps. Many people just can't understand that, and think we are weirdoes. But as everyone can see from this thread many are extremely passionate about herps and the knowledge that goes with it.

So please, remember we all have that common interest, even if we have different views upon it.
-----
Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com

too true
And I have to admit that I do have a rather analytic bent with my field of expertise being mathematics and philosphy(logic emphasis). This has a tenedency of causing people to think I am trying to fight when in actuality I am trying to bring everything into as clear of focus as possible.

Keep in mind that at the base level words only meen what the person hearing them thinks they mean when viewed on the individual level. And on the societal/comunity level words only mean what the largest number of members to the group think they meen. I bow my head to "Brains in a Vat" and in particular Putnams evaluation there of.

Best wishes to all my fellow Herpers,

Sean.
-----
1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

Ahh...shuddup, Nancy!
-----
Austin Herp. Soc.

"""">>Ahh...shuddup, Nancy!""""
>>-----
>>Austin Herp. Soc.
-----
Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com