Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Your quote......" pure imho doesnt apply w/ssp. i dont beleive there are "pure" subspecies. so if someone were to cross say a calXfla. king imho breeding those 50/50babies to either parent ssp. IE half clutch 50/50cross to either parent then F1's to unrelated pure/true parent ssp. taking those F2's and doing the same, after 5 generations(maybe as few as 3) they would be pure or true(indistinguishable) again."

>>>>>> a California King is NOT a Florida King, and a Prairie King is NOT a SF Mole King, and a Mexican Black King is NOT an Outer Banks King, etc...

Also, a Scarlet King(triangulum) is NOT a Honduran Milksnake, and a Nelson's Milksnake is NOT a Central Plains Milksnake, and a Utah Milksnake is NOT an Ecuadoran Milksnake, etc...

See the pattern here?.....How do you think all these snakes get classified?,...it's because they ALL have distinct differences, some more, some less than others, but they are ALL different from one another. Sure there are intergrades, who's disputing that?

Now onto the Hondurans you bashed me about.........Yeah, there's going to be some possible gene-flow from some of the other ssp. that many can't distinguish from one another(some almost impossible especially when intergraded, e.g. polyzona, stuarti, abnorma, etc... you were implying that I don't know any of this, and every "Honduran" I've ever owned was like it was a bar of gold that was stamped 99.99 pure! For one thing, I DO know the differences in subspecies.....that means THEY ARE DIFFERENT!

I won't be breeding an Eastern Milk with a Honduran, and calling it pure in a few generations either. In any case, if you don't think there are ANY pure ssp., then what are you getting up tight about and saying all my animals are crossed? that would mean all my milks are the exact same thing!..LOL

I think your "wires" are crossed, and I think you just got mad because I made a sarcastic fun to someone about the "no pure" subspecies thing..........

~Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Thomas,

Hah haha hha hah - THAT'S A GOOD ONE!

You breed Cal Kings to Florida Kings and then re-breed them back to each other AND THEN after a few more generations you sell the babies as "pure" Cal Kings or "pure" Florida Kings???

If it isn't important then why would you make the distinction? Probably because it is important to the people that buy the snakes.

What would you say to people that buy the snakes?
1. "These are pure Florida Kingsnakes and pure California Kingsnakes"

OR ----

2. "These Florida Kingsnakes have some California Kingsnake blood in them from a few generations ago"

Don't you see how unethical that is?????????

I do and I bet a lot of other people reading your post do as well.
-----
ECC
www.eastcoastcolubrids.com

Home of TEAM ECC
It's an Inner Circle thing... you wouldn't understand...

ok pter...

>Thomas,

Hah haha hha hah - THAT'S A GOOD ONE!

You breed Cal Kings to Florida Kings and then re-breed them back to each other AND THEN after a few more generations you sell the babies as "pure" Cal Kings or "pure" Florida Kings???If it isn't important then why would you make the distinction? Probably because it is important to the people that buy the snakes.

>>>ive never bred calkings to fla.kings. where did you come up with that one??? i guess you misinterpreted my op please re-read it, i really think your confused???

What would you say to people that buy the snakes?
1. "These are pure Florida Kingsnakes and pure California Kingsnakes"

OR ----

2. "These Florida Kingsnakes have some California Kingsnake blood in them from a few generations ago"

Don't you see how unethical that is?????????

I do and I bet a lot of other people reading your post do as well.
-----

please pter re-read my post you are WAY off here. i am a very ethical breeder and have always honestly represented every snake ive ever sold,traded,gave away. my point was albino floridana ALL albino floridana are likely creations from the amel calkings in the 80's. i dont understand how you missed that are construed it into me being unethical???
,,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

alright doug here goes...

>>>>>> a California King is NOT a Florida King, and a Prairie King is NOT a SF Mole King, and a Mexican Black King is NOT an Outer Banks King, etc...

Also, a Scarlet King(triangulum) is NOT a Honduran Milksnake, and a Nelson's Milksnake is NOT a Central Plains Milksnake, and a Utah Milksnake is NOT an Ecuadoran Milksnake, etc...

See the pattern here?.....How do you think all these snakes get classified?,...it's because they ALL have distinct differences, some more, some less than others, but they are ALL different from one another. Sure there are intergrades, who's disputing that?

>>>doug im 41 years old ive kept and bred snakes for over 25years and really dont apprecieate being talked down to as am sure you dont/wouldnt either so im IGNORING your first few questions&comments here and ask for some mutual respect from here on out, ok?

>Now onto the Hondurans you bashed me about.........Yeah, there's going to be some possible gene-flow from some of the other ssp. that many can't distinguish from one another(some almost impossible especially when intergraded, e.g. polyzona, stuarti, abnorma, etc... you were implying that I don't know any of this, and every "Honduran" I've ever owned was like it was a bar of gold that was stamped 99.99 pure! For one thing, I DO know the differences in subspecies.....that means THEY ARE DIFFERENT!

>>> doug i am sorry if you feel i BASHED you about your hondurans. i was comparing scenarios with where and how albino floridana came to be. and like amel fla. amel hondos are not true hondurensis but that lil fact is always ignored. i know the differances in ssp. as well though most are mostly grasps at very subtle differances but thats a whole other conversation. i'd like to see if we can get through this one first. do you beleive that the percentage of hondos being bred&sold as pure hondurans are in fact pure? why is purity important especially for morphs??? do you feel any snake bred/outbred more than 5generations in a box is 99.99% pure? even outcrossing within localities would diminish purity, wouldnt it?. what about fringe intergrades can they not be bred true or pure to either ssp? if they can whats to say others that dont range together cant as well?

>I won't be breeding an Eastern Milk with a Honduran, and calling it pure in a few generations either. In any case, if you don't think there are ANY pure ssp., then what are you getting up tight about and saying all my animals are crossed? that would mean all my milks are the exact same thing!..LOL

>>>lol i wont be doing that cross either. but i beleive i could and after 5 generations even you wouldnt be able to tell. i wouldnt ever misrepresent a snakes origins, but fact is others have and do and will. and im not uptight doug, i was just pointing out your albino hondos as ALL albino hondos are/have been crossed.

>I think your "wires" are crossed, and I think you just got mad because I made a sarcastic fun to someone about the "no pure" subspecies thing..........

>>>sorry, but no. i understand about takin yer lumps no worries
,,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

I agree about there being alot of speculation and confusion in the snake hobby.

Here is an article that you and many others might find interesting.

>>>>"Posted by: rtdunham at Sun Dec 14 20:37:34 2003 [ Email Message ]

(there's been a long discussion about hondurans, hybrids, crosses, etc., on the kingsnake forum. it seems more appropriate on this forum. in an effort to contribute some facts to the conversation the following is excerpted from Vol 7, Issue 5 of The Vivarium, "Honduran Milk Snakes, by Louis W. Porras):

(NOTE: if a parenthetical comment is mine it is so identified; otherwise parenthetical remarks are those of the author of the article, Louis Porras)

"...After the unification of Germany and broader exposure to other breeders in Europe, the Hortenbachs (TD note: in 1989 they hatched an albino baby from animals they believe were hondurensis) decided to make their breeding success public by presenting a paper at a herpetological meeting, and later by publishing a brief overview of their success. In that article they listed all subspecies of Lampropeltis triangulum in which albinism is known to occur. Included in that list was the taxon polyzona.

"In 1994 I was made aware of the existence of albino L.t.polyzona in Europe and received photographs of two specimens. Although the albino polyzona and hondurensis looked strikingly similar, I presumed this was to be expected, as both taxa have many overlapping characters in color, pattern, and scalation. The albino polyzona subsequently were imported into the United States by Brian Barczyk.

"Because of their resemblance to albino hondurensis, and to put to rest any questions future breeders might have, i asked my friend Helmut Hansen in Switzerland to investigate the origin of the albino polyzona. It was during this query that he discovered that in 1990 the Hortenbachs decided to thin out their collection and sold some of their 'normal' (i.e., non-albino) hondurensis to a friend. Unbeknowst to them, these snakes were taken to a prominent reptile dealer in the former West Germany. Rumor has it that the snakes were sold as polyzona because some of the specimens had a broken snout ring (a character which occurs both in hondurensis and poloyzona) and because polyzona is a rarer taxon in Europe and commands a higher price. Although this information must have dealt a severe blow to the aspirations of being the first to breed albino polyzona in this country, Brian Barczyk, the gentleman that he is, graciously accepted our findings and in a sense was glad that any speculation regarding the origin of the 'polyzona' was put to rest."

TD NOTE: the above represents three paragraphs from a fact-filled, six page article that cites Williams' Systematics and natural history of the American Milk Snake, and Wilson & Meyer's The Snakes of Honduras. It describes Porras' extensive experience with hondurensis here and in its natural range. There are 26 color plates. I'd urge anyone interested in knowing more about the hondurans to find a copy of this issue, perhaps in a library. Anyone believing they have more accurate information, or information that contradicts the published accounts, would serve herpetoculture by publishing the facts supporting their conclusions. IMHO.

Until then, I find Porras' credentials convincing, and his conclusions seemingly well documented and therefore persuasive.

peace
terry dunham
albino tricolors"

In regards to there being a substantial percentage of "hondurensis" in the hobby (as you stated) with other subspecific gene-flow, I would undoubtedly agree with that. Several members of the Latin American complex can be problematic, and virtually unidentifiable by most.

best regards, ~Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I read that article a while ago. I am not sure it proves anything.
-----
ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

Bluerosy...who shamelessly takes every opportunity he can to post a picture of his Peabino.

Maybe,...... but I wanted it post it nonetheless.

I had the magazine years ago, but don't know what happened to it..........oh well.

In any case, it doesn't have as much bearing on a substantial percentage in the hobby today, as it did years ago. Lots of time has gone by since then.

BTW, that little pair of "flo's" is doing phenomenal.

~Doug

-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

That snake is looking phenomenal Doug.

BTW I have a copy of that issue that Louie Porras gave me himself.
-----
ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

Bluerosy...who shamelessly takes every opportunity he can to post a picture of his Peabino.

Doug, There were a few places in that story that were just filled in as they went.There were a couple steps taken with a few other people over there that was never mentioned.
Long story short it was a better way to go for the u.s to call them hondurensis just like it was a better way to go with the eoropeans to call them polyzona.
Actually I really don't think we will ever know for certain.
Shannon

n/p
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

how big are they getting?
i remember when they were wee little things... lets see some in hand shots!!!
adam jeffery
-----
" a.k.a. farfrumugen "
hybrid breeders association
1.1 puebladurans
1.1 sinacorns
1.1 hypo corns
1.1 kenyan sand boas
1.1 mbk
1.1 albino corns
1.1 childrens python
1.2 ghost corns
2.2 butter(both females motley)
2.2 pyroxgreerixruthvenixalternaxcampbellixholbrooki
0.1 hypo pyroxgreerixruthvenixalternaxcampbellixholbrooki
1.0 snow corns
1.0 jurassic milk
1.0 house snake
1.0 crimson corns
0.2 albino pueblacorns
0.1 striped ghosts
0.1 anery pueblacorn
0.1 bloodred
0.1 striped albino corn
0.1 albino nelsons
0.1 anery motley
0.1 normal corn het hypo,anery
0.1 hypo tang hondo
0.1 rosy boa

yeah figures i didnt think we could.
yep, polyzona/hondurensis, brooksi/floridana, snake/reptile i get it.
,,,,,,thomas

-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

I agree about there being alot of speculation and confusion in the snake hobby.

Agree? It's the same 5 people posting on this subject and no one but no one recognizes this. As if this tiny forum makes the rules of the herp industry.
-----
ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

Bluerosy...who shamelessly takes every opportunity he can to post a picture of his Peabino.

The chair recognizes the one true fact that the only way to know precisely what you got is to go out and get it yourself from where it is known to be from,lol, and have a witness and a video camera and.........

-----
Todd Hughes

...GPS coordinates, and blood samples for mitochondrial DNA testing, and sworn affidavits filed in triplicate. All stamped by a notary public (preferably one who knows localities) in order to preserve the chain of evidence, of course.
-----
Diego

These animals dont know where they are from. They dont discern ssp. status. We are creating MUTANTS, domestic lines, the sooner we realize this the sooner we are OK with the results.

...which is why I was making a joke.
-----
Diego

All above posts are absolutely "spot on"!

"court is hereby adjourned"!..LOL!

~Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

get it yourself from where it is known to be from,lol, and have a witness and a video camera and.........

I could take you out and stick an albino speckled king in my pocket while we were flipping trash and AC. With the camera on all I would have to do is pretend to pick it up or drop it under a board. YOU and the camera would not know i planted it.

I relly don't see the difference with this and some people planning and breeding hybrids back and then selling them as some pure spp.

Point being, it is all about trusting the breeder and nothing else. I know of people who said they found some new morph in the wild and it was all made up . A scam. A lie.

Also a guy that posted here a month ago said he found a albino floroda king. He sent me pics and it was a calif king. Again even if you find anything in the wild does not even prove anything. It comes down to knowledge of hybrids (wake up and smell the coffee you hybrid haters) and knowing what they look like and that means getting involved with them and keeping your ear to the ground on what is going on in the hobby. Sticking your head in the sand like an Ostrich, and saying I hate hybrids, and only beleive something is real if I find it or my friend found it. Or "we have proof" "we have it on video tape" is not belevable either and quite frankly will only set up the next big scam from people who are dishonest. Common sense is what works. And being able to read people. Just because a breeder has ball pythons, hybrids or some other reptiles and does not have all eastern king or all some specialized collection does not make them a dishonest hybridzer.But most people here will have you beleive that. Then if you check they are just trying to peddle their own brand of snake to make people reading this come to them. By creating this small amount of doubt is what is called marketing strategy and nothing else.

Stipid people are born every minute and if you listen to them you are just as dumb.
-----
ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

Bluerosy...who shamelessly takes every opportunity he can to post a picture of his Peabino.

"Just because a breeder has ball pythons, hybrids or some other reptiles and does not have all eastern king or all some specialized collection does not make them a dishonest hybridzer.But most people here will have you beleive that. Then if you check they are just trying to peddle their own brand of snake to make people reading this come to them. By creating this small amount of doubt is what is called marketing strategy and nothing else."

>>I don't think it is money driven. If all they cared about was money they would just buy what's popular and breed and sell it. I think it's more spite and fear than anything. Some people percieve all hybridization as hindering their own ability to obtain and maintain pure lines for the future.

Hold the pink cell phone a minute, Rainer! Sure , YOU COULD slip a herp in the pile on someone, but would you? Could it be done to you? Even in your neck of the woods? I believe you also need a great deal of knowledge about what a non hybrid looks like, the real deal from the field. There aren't many stupid people here, some may be misinformed but not stupid. Calm down, man! LOL! I am saying I know what I have because I caught it. I don't care if I sell a snake to you or anyone else. It does come down to believing, some people are scammers. But if I tell you I caught x snake and you say b.s., likely the conversation is over, because, like Frank says, I don't care what you do, I do what I do for my own knowledge. The fact that you defend your snakes so valiantly goes to show you care deeply about what you do, but hey, c'mon, I don't think you would or could slip one by on me. How likely is it that you and I are gonna herp together anyway? Most of the time I am by myself, or with someone I know and trust, but mostly myself. I have something I caught that is a big deal to ME, but isn't one of a kind, just not common. I found it myself and will market it myself, should it come to fruition. Hets that are not visible are harder to sell, yes? And the person has to be trustworthy to even catch your attention. I have a lot of things in my collection, those that are morphs that I did not catch are suspect to me, whatever the species or sub. Not even if I like the person, (with very few exceptions, say, Tom and Mark K,) would I trust anyone with a morph. Time will tell, as they say, What if you found out that all you had been working with and for for the last 20 years was a hybrid or interbreed? It could be so, you only have the info and the source, you did not originate your first breeders.
Because you have intimate knowledge by field herping, I tend to lean more toward believing most of what you say about your floridana, but, even though we have met and drank together, some of your stuff is too cutting edge for stoopid people like me to understand, lol! I value your opinion, but I also value mine, a tad more I should say, lol!
-----
Todd Hughes

Tocdd,
I could take you out to Calif and while looking for zonata I could pull a rutheni x zonata out from under a rock. It could be verified (by you) and video taped.

I am just saying that if someone has secret hybrid projects that they have been planning and working on for many years what is stopping them from planting it as well? Taking along someone like you would only help solidify their "find".

Those pure "fake" morphs came from people that kept those projects secret fo a long time. Think about that and then realize there are no boundaries for such scumbags. Thse people actually exist who have done these hybrid crosses and bred back for many years to achieve. Actually by planting a hybrid on a herping trip and recording the find would by someone would not surprise me given the lengths some people have gone to cover up their lies. With internet information today this would seem a plausible way to validate a new morph..
-----
ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

Bluerosy...who shamelessly takes every opportunity he can to post a picture of his Peabino.

haha, not me, boy! I couldn't verify squat in your neck of the woods! I would be looking to you saying what's THAT?!!! You would be on your own stating "this is whatever", I would be going, cool! Let's find another. You would have to have a pocketful to get me, 'cause we would be going over these that day later on, and to hear you tell it, we would/could/should find a ton! I am just saying, like we all were, it comes down to who you trust, I wouldn't expect you to do this, nor would I herp with anyone I suspect would. Possible, but highly unlikely. That would be like saying I could pull the shed over YOUR eyes in my neck of the woods!
-----
Todd Hughes

>>The chair recognizes the one true fact that the only way to know precisely what you got is to go out and get it yourself from where it is known to be from,lol, and have a witness and a video camera and.........
>>
>>
>>-----
>>Todd Hughes

damn straight Toddy!
-----
http://www.hcu-tx.org
http://www.kingsnake.com/mexicana/
http://www.joeforks.com