Reptile & Amphibian Forums

So I've seen the Anerys and Hypos, but have yet to see any pics of an Amel. If you guys have any, that would be cool if ou posted them.

Im also interested if anyone has created a "Ghost" (anery hypo) morph? If so, then will "snows" (anery amel) or "sunglows?" (amel hypo) be popping up sometime soon?

Thanks in advance guys.

The only picture I have ever seen is the one on this link:

http://www.designermorphs.com/rainbowboasarchive.htm

Funny how they have the picture, but no info? I definetely want some of these in my collection when they come around!
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Aubrey Ross

©
www.SlipstreamSerpents.com

I know there are amel columbian rainbow boas but I do not remember ever seeing/hearing reliable confirmation of a albino rainbow that was not columbian or columbian x brazillian.

I would love it if they did exist and if so would love to see the pictures but I currently remain skeptical. I do know someone breeding the columbian amel strain and those look very nice indeed.

Sean.
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1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

From what I've heard, there is one known male but they've not been able to get it to breed.
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

I only know of the Amel Columbian rainbow boa. Just like Amels in some other species it might take a sub species to be put into the mix to get an Amel BRB.. Thats is, if its not being done already..
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Jason A.
"Long time Herper, first year Breeder `07."
My 2008 Care Sheet & The BRB Stats. Username: brb@kingsnake.com

Last time I emailed the breeder I know with the amel columbian he was already crossing or getting ready to cross it with BRB's to crossover the gene.

Sean.
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1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

good luck selling the "ugly as sin" mutt het-babies.

i personally wont be buying and crosses of this kind, the albino isnt that much of a holy grail.

>>good luck selling the "ugly as sin" mutt het-babies.
>>
>>i personally wont be buying and crosses of this kind, the albino isnt that much of a holy grail.

Maybe so but I bet you be surprised what "might" be in your "pure breed" snakes. In 4 or 5 generations you wouldn't even be able to tell the Columbian Gene.

Unless you personally captured the snake and even then who's to say that somewhere in this snakes gene pool it didn't breed with another species then pure breed is just a marketing gimmick.

Allot morphs today came from another species and crossing, calling a morph a pure breed isn't very accurate.
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Jason A.
"Long time Herper, first year Breeder `07."
My 2008 Care Sheet & The BRB Stats. Username: brb@kingsnake.com

4 or 5 generations (perhaps more perhaps less) is the fact that at least 10 years went by in that time there has to be another albino brb out there I'm sure of it and it might cost someone 35k or so for it but it just might be worth it
Bob

...you're right about the no garuntee on genetic background when wild caught and on the fact that for the most part after so many generations it will be difficult if not impossible to tell. But that does not mean that the idea or label of pure breed snakes is pointless or a marketing gimmick.

With any breeding program your goal is to produce as close to perfectly consistent/predictable offspring as possible. Normally you are in particular wanting to produce, as close to 100% as possible, predictable traited offspring which include a few very specific traits(amel, anery, striped, etc..).

The best way we have to reduce variability in offspring is to breed only animals that have already been breeding together consistently for centuries and thereby already have a fairly homogenous genepool and fixed set of traits that occurr within it. This way only traits that "normally" show up in that gene pool will occurr in our breeding project offspring.

As a result, if we want to produce consistent offspring with predictable traits then it behooves us to, as much as possible, minimize the quantity of exotic genes in our breeding program. So even though we can never no for certain that our animal is absolutely 100% pure it is generally best to try and make sure that it is as close as possible to 100%.

That being said I am not totally against crosses if people are made aware of the fact that it stemmed from a cross. One example is in some of the albino boa's being bred currently. Specifically what a friend of mine as well as Brian Sharp both breed, namely albino suriname x columbians. While these are definitely a cross, a spectacular one in the specimens I've seen, they are also always sold as such so the buyer knows what they are recieving.

Basically I am not taking sides but pointing out that there are reasons for the distintion on genetic background and promoting full disclosure, to the degree possible, of the animals genetic background.

Sean.
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1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

I didn't use the term pointless but definitely inaccurate, typically when I see the description of pure breed it is simply being used as a marketing phrase, not always but on most occasions.

Pure breed to me means DNA samples/testing and snake breeding isn't quite there yet, maybe in the next 15 years.

Imagine that 6 generations ago your newly acquired BRB's great great grand parent was a cross between a Peruvian Rainbow Boa and a BRB, this may have happened in a snake farm, now the breeder gets one of these guys unknowing to him that its a mix, 1-2 generations latter they noticed how bright and how better looking the bull’s-eye seem to be, 4 generation and these little suckers are being sold as a higher end BRBs, 6 generation and you acquire these little buggers with the label that they are TRUE PURE BREED, Bull’s-Eyes phase. See what I am getting at? Pure breed can only get you so far, and without DNA sampling its not that far at all.

Blood line means more to me then pure breed. Blood line is something that has/still is being used in the GTP arena for a long time now some animals can be traced back 40 plus years ago to a Wild Caught GTP, now imagine some of your snakes and how far back you can trace them, example the parents, then grand parents and so on, how can you even use the term pure breed for such animals? Unless you have very thorough documentation, GPS locations, DNA samples from both parents etc.. etc... Its near impossible. Blood line relies more on accurate documentation, if you say this is where this snake breeding career begun then that’s as much as you will know and for me that sometimes can be enough..
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Jason A.
"Long time Herper, first year Breeder `07."
My 2008 Care Sheet & The BRB Stats. Username: brb@kingsnake.com

fair to compare peruvians to colombians. The least colorful peruvian in the world is 100x more colorful than the most colorful colombian in the world. So I'm saying that the brazilian mixed with peruvian blood may have happened but to the average person that appear to be the same and since they are reclassifying sub species who is to say that the brazilians and peruvians won't be classed together. In bcc, guyanas and suris damn near look the same and I have lots of trouble distinguishing the two (can't tell a lot of the time) but most people consider them different (locality freaks) and some people consider them the same
Bob

p.s. not trying to add fuel to the fire but I would never own a hybrid het for albino. Somethings are worth waiting for in life and besides I don't have 20k for one and I guess I would have to buy a het to make it in one generation so that sounds like school tuition for 7 years for my son

>>fair to compare peruvians to colombians. The least colorful >>peruvian in the world is 100x more colorful than the most >>colorful colombian in the world. So I'm saying that the >>brazilian mixed with peruvian blood may have happened but to >>the average person that appear to be the same and since they >>are reclassifying sub species who is to say that the >>brazilians and peruvians won't be classed together. In bcc, >>guyanas and suris damn near look the same and I have lots of >>trouble distinguishing the two (can't tell a lot of the time) >>but most people consider them different (locality freaks) and >>some people consider them the same
>>Bob
>>
>>p.s. not trying to add fuel to the fire but I would never own a hybrid het for albino.

Ah, but why? If the "mutt" albinos look the same as "pure" albinos, can't you make the same argument with albinos that you just made above with Peruvians vs. Brazilians:

1)They look the same
2)Brazilians and Columbians could be re-classified into one single species/subspecies

Fun stuff to discuss!

Thanks,
Ed

you crazy Ed!!!! IF they look the same is a big IF. If the brazilians get reclassified with the colombians then I will give you a free pair of het hypos Ed and if they don't, you pass that pipe you were smoking when you wrote that last replylol cool discussion though but there are too many purists on here Ed so you and Jason are like the colombian crowd vs. the brazilian crowd (never gonna win an arguement j/k Jason but not with you Ed
Bob

...just one color morph looking the same in a cross does not mean that all other morph/phase combinations will look the same as they do in uncrossed stock.

Virtually no one buys a morph, especially a high end one, to exclusively reproduce that morph. More often they are planning on producing the morph, hets for the morph, and multi morph animals. None of which except the base morph itself(amel in this case) could be expected to look the same. That is assuming that amel BRB's even look the same as amel CRB's.

I am not against the crossings exactly but I do not think it is correct to say there is no reason to maintain the distinction. Do you really think that if CRB and BRB were reclassified together that you would not instantly see the breeders making a big deal about their animals being from pure "Brazillian" stock? The scientists may reclassify it but the only difference in the market at large would be BRB and CRB being called phases instead of seperate subspecies.

Sean.
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1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

I need clarification of how they are tracking bloodlines to understand how it is better in your opinion. I know how bloodlines in canines are handled but that is an add on to the pureblood registeries not a substitute to them.

If you are saying it is a substitute which keeps track of all individuals from a starting generation in a family tree then I have a hard time seeing it as practical short of a statndard Dbase registery. The math and record keeping grows exponentially and is quickly beyond anything a single person will be able to handle much less want to look at.
10 generations = 2^10 = 2,048 entries
20 generations = 2^20 = 2,097,152 entries
40 generations = 2^40 = 1,099,511,627,776 entries.

I am all for documentation of whatever form that helps increase our knowledge of each specimens genetic history. Just need more details to have a clear idea on what you were reffering to as I am not involved with GTP and hence unfamiliar with GTP records practices.

Sean.
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1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

>>I need clarification of how they are tracking bloodlines to understand how it is better in your opinion. I know how bloodlines in canines are handled but that is an add on to the pureblood registeries not a substitute to them.
>>
>>If you are saying it is a substitute which keeps track of all individuals from a starting generation in a family tree then I have a hard time seeing it as practical short of a statndard Dbase registery. The math and record keeping grows exponentially and is quickly beyond anything a single person will be able to handle much less want to look at.
>>10 generations = 2^10 = 2,048 entries
>>20 generations = 2^20 = 2,097,152 entries
>>40 generations = 2^40 = 1,099,511,627,776 entries.
>>
>>I am all for documentation of whatever form that helps increase our knowledge of each specimens genetic history. Just need more details to have a clear idea on what you were reffering to as I am not involved with GTP and hence unfamiliar with GTP records practices.
>>
>>Sean.
>>-----
>>1.1 BRB
>>1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
>>0.1 Silver TPRS
>>1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
>>0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
>>0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
>>1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
>>0.1 Reeve's Turtle
>>0.2 Amstaff's
>>1.0 Pudytat

This page might give you an idea of what I mean by blood line
Some of his animals were from the first ever to yield offspring, if memory servers me correctly this animal was from a Zoo that Trooper Walsh obtained.

Greg Maxwell went into great detail about specific animals blood lines that he could trace back so many years ago in his book, The Complete Chondro. I believe you can buy offspring from that animal on his site still today..

If you take a look at This Page this is a break down of animals over the last decade and the blood line.

It comes down to how do you know? Pure breed what? What does that mean? Pure breed to me means inbreeding while not so bad in reptiles some "pure breed" dogs today have some issues becuase of this..

Imagine the blood line of an animal, if you knew 5 generations ago that it had a cross, then it wouldn't be a pure breed now would it? So when would pure breed work?
This discussion is really over word usage, I believe we are looking for the same thing, were did this animal come from what did his parents look like and is it typical to what you might see in the wild unless of course its a morph..
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Jason A.
"Long time Herper, first year Breeder `07."
My 2008 Care Sheet & The BRB Stats. Username: brb@kingsnake.com

...I couoldn't find anything really clarifying the way "bloodlines" are being treated or defined in GTP's. Lots of great info on GTP husbandry and husbandry history, I especially liked the locality discussions, but not really anything as far as bloodline.

The second link was interesting and had nice pictures. Is that considered a record/documentation for bloodline purposes? I still need to get a better idea of how the bloodlines are handled to be able to compare them to other methods but I am still definitely interested. My only concern, if the pictoral clutch record is considered documentation, is that it seems no more informative then taking someones word that a particular specimen is from pure stock.

I agree with your word usage analogy. Basically I am treating "pure breed" as a ideal/goal and you are treating it more as a criteria for inclusion. And yes I agree we are basically looking at the same thing as well.

Two other points though. "Pure breed" does not in itself imply inbreeding. The key distinction is whether the registery is closed book or not. If the registery has a means for new WC specimens to be entered in then it should have no more impact on inbreeding then keeping breeding record do. However if they have completely closed books, as the AKC does, then i does in general lean towards inbreeding. This is because the gene pool is locked and even if it is large enough to in general avoid the "inbreeding" issue it is still structurally encouraging/favoring inbreeding.

Secondly I completely agree with the detrimental effects of inbreeding in many of the "pure"breed dogs. That being said the inbreeding is not, from my personal experience with papered dogs and shows, caused by the papering or emphasis on "pure" breeds. The real culprit in purebred dog inbreeding is the emphasis on line breeding for those traits that will cause the dog to win awards at the show and thereby become more valuable stud/dam. This is actually the source of my distrust, at the gut level, of the term boodlines since that is the term commonly used in canines when they are being inbred for show purposes.

The perfect example of the dog show judges prefferences directing inbreeding/linebreeding to detrimental effect is german sheperds in the US. They used to be great work dogs but nowadays are unfit. The emphasis in the shows was for GS's to have shorter hindlegs causing them to have a angled squating appearance even when they were standing up. This continued to cause the back legs to be bred shorter and now hip/back problems are issues where they weren't before and the specimens are not suited to certain physical activities the way they were before. Not to mention any side effects of the inbreeding for the small legs. I have not looked up what effects have become more prevalent as a result but the common ones in canines are premature blindness, premature deafness, organ problems, and emotional/tempermental issues.
This is also why some of the best(quality not show success) german shepard breeders go to the effort to import breeding stock from out of country.

If you know where there is some more explicit explanation of the GTP bloodline system then I'd be very interested in reading up on it. Thanks for the links and info.

Sean.
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1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

>>good luck selling the "ugly as sin" mutt het-babies.
>>

But people won't be buying hets for their looks, will they?
They'll buy them to try to produce albinos.

>>i personally wont be buying and crosses of this kind, the albino isnt that much of a holy grail.

I don't quite understand it either, but for a different reason.
I personally think an adult albino BRB will look virtually identical to an adult albino CRB, so I don't see the value added by creating a "75% pure" BRB that's an albino. To put it another way, if you take out the melanin, won't they become one and the same snake?

Thanks,
Ed

...to a degree I think your correct but given things like brighter colors(high orange and high red for instance) and holding contrast in BRB's I think there would be some strong differences. Even in amel's I would expect the amel from columbian and bright BRB stock to have much brighter yellow in its markings as well as the potential for reds and pinks which I do not know of showing up in the CRB amel's.

In terms of breeding projects not exclusively for amel you have the problem that people are unlikely to want to add genes that might dull or diffused the markings of their stock just to get the amel gene into it.

For those reason's I suspect the CRBxBRB amels won't be attractive to some people until the percentage of BRB blood is 75%, 87.5% or even higher.

All in all I would prefer a actual BRB albino to a cross personally.

Sean.
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1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

Hey Sean,

It would be interesting to see what would turn out, no doubt.
I might be totally wrong. But my hypothesis, based on looking
at pics of albinos and anery's, is that most of the coloration of RB's is produced by melanin, especially as adults. And I don't think there is much pattern difference between CRB's and BRB's, just color. Of course, if the picture I saw of an albino BRB is not actually a BRB, then my hypothesis is baseless. And even if it is, that might be a different gene than the mutant gene in the Columbian boas. So in no way would I bet money that I'm right. But I'll let someone else pay the 5 figure amounts to prove it one way or the other.

If there is a noticable difference in "pure" BRB and "pure" Colombian albinos, then I agree with you as far as preferring
a pure specimen. If not, I'd happily pay 1/2 the cost for the "intergrade".

Here's a question for the forum. Since per the defintion of "subspecies" the different subspecies can breed together, what if you buy a wild RB that was collected from one of the "hybrid zones", but didn't know it? If you like the looks of it, is it somehow less valuable if someone tells you it's a "mutt?"

No right or wrong answers here, I'm just curious what everyone thinks.

Thanks,
Ed

>>...to a degree I think your correct but given things like brighter colors(high orange and high red for instance) and holding contrast in BRB's I think there would be some strong differences. Even in amel's I would expect the amel from columbian and bright BRB stock to have much brighter yellow in its markings as well as the potential for reds and pinks which I do not know of showing up in the CRB amel's.
>>
>>In terms of breeding projects not exclusively for amel you have the problem that people are unlikely to want to add genes that might dull or diffused the markings of their stock just to get the amel gene into it.
>>
>>For those reason's I suspect the CRBxBRB amels won't be attractive to some people until the percentage of BRB blood is 75%, 87.5% or even higher.
>>
>>All in all I would prefer a actual BRB albino to a cross personally.
>>
>>Sean.
>>-----
>>1.1 BRB
>>1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
>>0.1 Silver TPRS
>>1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
>>0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
>>0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
>>1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
>>0.1 Reeve's Turtle
>>0.2 Amstaff's
>>1.0 Pudytat

First I believe the picture in that book/posting is the albino CRB and not BRB. It looks just like the other albino CRB pics I have seen and if you notice the online page for the book that was linked did not make a distinction on subspecies of the albino and merely used the picture as a link in the rainbow boa page.

If someone actually owns the designer morphs book it would be interesting to find out if they list the subspecies in the book. Also regardless of the answer I do agree it would be interesting to see the differences between the two.

Secondly I do not think you would see a rainbow boa from the CRB and BRB hybrid zone being labeled as a mutt. With the two being so close in appearance other then the adult coloration/pattern you would basically see the specimen, once it reached adulthood, being labeled as either a highcontrast/colorful CRB or as a lowcontrast/brown BRB. As a baby it could be sold/identified as either to the casual observer. Of course some people like Jeff may be able to distinguish by characteristics like scale size and count but that is hardly a casual observation

Sean.
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1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

that is indeed an albino brb on the back cover of DM. They also have an albino crb from Rubio's pictured in the book and there is night and day differences. Later tonight I will try and take a good pic of each and send them to you in a PM for you and Ed
Bob

p.s. Sean I would call it a "mutt"

Thanks for the clarification and looking forward to the pics.

Sean.
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1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

After seeing the pics I have to agree with Bob that the BRB and CRB amels are extremely different in appearance. Some stunning pics in that book, I may be picking one up in the near future now

Sean.
-----
1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

A buddy and I sold it to a prominent breeder a few years back as a 3ft wc male. Will upload pics with scanner in a day or so. Should be hets raising up now? Breder said e had a girl though?

you post that and tease us with a few day delay before giving us the goods

I'd love to see the pics though. Also can you say which breeder bought it from you or is that a secret? Not looking to pester them but curious who is doing the albino project with that specimen.

Any pics and information would be thoroughly appreciated and keep us occupied for a while

Sean.
-----
1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

Sold it to Ian at Outback??? and thanks for sharing the info
Bob

Here are some pics of both BRB's and CRB's that I copied from posts on this forum a few years ago. The CRB pics obviously belong to Ricardo Rubio but I can't remember for the life of me who posted the pics of the BRB. Maybe someone else who was lurking back then too remembers who the pics belong to?

Thanks for thie BRB pictures!! I haven't seen any other ones of the Albino BRB, simply gorgeous!!! I WANT ONE!!

The CRB's are nice too, but oh man... that BRB!! AHHH!!!
-----
Aubrey Ross

©
www.SlipstreamSerpents.com

Yep they are impressive.

Definitely be going on my list to get after Pearl's and Hypo's.

Sean.
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1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

...is to see that albino crossed into some High Red stock. Since from the picture the reds obviously exhibit in the albino form since it is more orange then yellow. Or even a high orange but I'd like to see if by crossing into the High reds we could get a pink or red BRB.

Either way it will definitely be interesting to see what pops out of that in the next decade or so.

Sean.
-----
1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

As to who posted i am guessing it is likely Snakesatsunset or Ian at Outback reptiles. From the post above Snakesatsunset sold an imported abino BRB to Ian a few years ago and it is Ian's albino BRB that is pictured in Designer Morphs.

Sean.
-----
1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat