Reptile & Amphibian Forums

A few years back I could see, adds for several asutralian dwarf minitors in the classifieds and pictures posted on this forum.

And now a days there is none!

Doesnt anyone breed these anymore?

what has happend?

FR you used to breed theme? have you stopped?

Bård

People just stopped breeding them in any significant numbers. Many of the 'old' names in monitor breeding are no more or have moved onto different projects.

There are still people working with most of the less common species (pilbarensis, glauerti, kingorum, caudolineatus, gilleni, storri, and even tristis) but it seems like everyone is having mixed success...if any at all.

Most people breeding (and even just trying to breed) odatria have waiting lists so there is no reason for ads on the classifieds. So if you do not know who has what...you have to hunt around to find most species these days. Even getting nice quality baby ackies can be somewhat difficult at times.

It is just the way things are now.

"....but it seems like everyone is having mixed success...if any at all."

Speak for yourself, Daniel. I’ve been hatching storri quite consistently for a couple of years now. I also have a clutch of 4 caudolineatus eggs that have been incubating for a month and are looking good. She just laid again and I’m trying to get around to digging them up.

But of course I’m just a private individual that keeps monitors because they are fun. I do not sell to the public, because for me, that takes all the fun out of it.

Well thank you for your replu Daniel,

because I can remember some years back, you could with a few clicks find as you say good ackies, pils and glauertis at the classifieds, and now its none..

A shame, in europe tough they are pretty plentyfull at shows. but prices are steep..

thanks
Bård

The American Supply is based on successful keepers. As the previous breeders move on to new interests or other interests they really like, its up to new breeders to carry on.

New breeders will produce them in small numbers, but large scale is no longer feasible finacially.

In the 90's their value was so high, they not only made enough money to build a facility, but allowed me to travel all over the world many many times. Now they barely pay the power to keep them.

What most people miss is, its really not a business, its simply too much work to hatch the same species over and over and over for many years, all while watching your returns drop like a stone(the more you produce, the less they are worth). Particularly with species that are not that much FUN.

After a keeper has successfully produced generations of a species, keeping them becomes a fun factor. If they are not fun, your simply going to move on to something fun. At least thats how it was for me.

I know other breeders who were not into it for fun(love of reptiles), they simply stopped keeping monitors. Too much work, not enough money. They did not care about fun(joy)

As the founder of many(all) those species (established in the U.S.) , I am sad to see some fade away. But some of them, were simply not fun. Cheers

FR, what species do you find are the most fun?

Good question.

I love lacies, but, and this is a big but. hahahahahaha they were my childhood fantasy. Kinda like wanting a supermodel. You dreamed about it, but never thought it would happen. And when it did happen, you found supermodels were a little on the dangerous side. hahahahahahahaha. Thats the case with lacies, they are great fun, but the males are a little dangerous.(favorite of large monitors, even thought they are not that large)

The gouldi complex, are far and away the most fun. Ranging from Sand monitors, V.flavirufus, to V.p.horni, on the extreme end. They do it all, and cover all behaviors. They burrow, climb, use water, no water, stand up, roll over, etc. hahahahahaha. They are sweet, they are monsters. They are active(not boring), and they are tolerant of a wide range of conditions.(favorite for med monitors)

Then ackies of all types. While they are not my favorite build for a monitor, I am not a fan of short stocky monitors. They are by far amoungst the most entertaining. Actually I like their builds all up until old age. They are colorful(can be) outgoing, and are the greatest of teachers. They will beat knowledge into our thick skulls. And they are like all other monitors.

Ackies are extremely curious, even in nature I found them with their heads stuck in crevices(and dead) in beer cans(and dead) at the bottom of ponds(and dead) They just cannot stop that curiosity. They do this in captivity as well. (favorite small monitors)(close call here thought)

I really do not understand keepers, they seem to be all about PROTECTION of their animals, without ever knowing their animals. I say this because these animals(ackies) love to investigate new things. They can be a never ending supply of entertainment. But its up to the keeper.

Try putting something new in the cage, then see what happens. Try hanging something new in the cage(just out of reach) and see what happens. Of course the general behavior is easy to predict, they will hide, but then they come out and try and figure out what the heck is in there. They work so hard at doing that its absolutely insane. If you hang stuff, you may see that they will even push things under it to climb up. Its hard to say they did that on purpose, but it always ends up with stuff under the object.

Why ackies are great is, they get over their fear in a big hurry. Most australian species are like this to some degree. While most indo species are on the other end of the scale. Their fear(survival mode) overrides their curiosity. There are exceptions, both in species and individuals. This is simply a general rule. African species are just flat dull to me. Only because they fit in the middle. They are behaviorally average.

But don't forget ALL MONITORS, are behaviorally expressive compared to many other reptiles(snakes)

ALso the gouldi complex are not prone to biting for self protection. They are also not armed with horrifying teeth, nor do they bite hard. They DO HAVE the ability to make you bleed, but not much more. I believe I can be considered an expert on this subject. hahahahahahahahahaha ARGUS are the worst of this group in this area.

Don't get me wrong, I am keen on Croc monitors and peachthroats. I also fell in love with one individual Bluetail. She was one of the sweetest monitors I ever kept. I picked her up for a friend and only kept her here for a month or two.

I also like the nub-tail group. Thats the true dwarfs, like V.caudolineatus, V.gilleni, V.kingorum and of course the the favorite being crosses between the first two, which I call caudolenis. I have had more fun with these then any other type of monitor ever. My guess here is, when you cross species, you eliminate or mute, species specific behaviors. You end up with a monitor thats all monitor, without the defensive adaptions that allowed them to survive and specialize in nature. This has been true with my gouldi complex crosses as well.

These crosses tend to teach you what MONITORS and their true behaviors are. Which I believe is not very well understood. BY ANYONE, muchless science. Sadly, most biologists(mechanics) and academics and thus authors, appear to not know their bum from a hole in the ground with it comes to behaviors.

Which leads to this, my favorites are always the most expressive and behavioral of the varanid species and individuals. AFter all, if you keep them for any lenght of time. WE the keepers have to be entertained. Cheers

"These crosses tend to teach you what MONITORS and their true behaviors are."

hahah that is so counterintuitive I love it. I find things like that interesting. In manufacturing, often things are the same way - i.e. slow the line down to build more, reduce banks to improve throughput, etc. Anyway, great explanation of your likes and dislikes and why.

Hmmm, how about waters? It would seem you of all people would have the capability and knowledge to truly enjoy these awesome animals for what they are. One of mine is so intelligent and curious, just a joy to observe and interact with. Unless I offend him, then he hates me for literally weeks (he holds a grudge). I guess I ask because I do not think many people can give them what they need so they can't flourish.

Thanks

Tom

Hi Tom, Again with me is, its not about intuition, Its about actual experience. I kept the parent species through many generations, then keep the crosses through many generations. Then you know what is gained and what is lost.

As you know, others try to theorize or simply guess. Then get mad at me, because I do not have to guess. I am sure if they had the same experience, we would get along fine. As I would not have to bust their theories and such.

To me, its only common sense. A species is refined by specialization(natural selection). So crossing it, can only unspecialize it. It otherwords, crossing different types/species can end up with a more generalized animal, then a more specialized animal.

The reality is, thats what has happened here, they become more basic and do the normal things well. They seem to lose defensive behaviors. I guess they forgot whats going to get them.

About waters, I kept cumingi. But normal waters are too big. I have fairly large cages, I would love to have even larger ones(at times I dream of that). Getting truely large monitors, makes my cages essentially smaller. Not what I would like to see.

The problem here is cost. It takes lots of energy to cool cages, as well as heat them. We have to do both at the same time. So making larger cages is not going to happen. Of course I could make very large outdoor cages, but what happens in the winter? Cheers

Thats funny you mention adding something new to an ackie cage only to discover them all about it. Any time I add something new to the cage, whether it be permanent or momentarily, they are all over it. They were particularly interested in the thermometer/hydrometer i put in their. I waste hours a day watching them.

Btw frank, I've noticed that my flood light tends to dry out the immediate area its directed yet the cage's overall humidity tends to be quite high. Is that kind of drying out near the heat to be expected with hot spots up to 150? (i thought that would be a little hot but they sure use it)

I also really like watching them do their "basking dance" when they lay on the hot spot alternating cooling their feet by picking them up