Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have a 3 year old California Kingsnake that was brought up on prekilled mice with no problem. Last year he started refusing mice. Tried to wait him out and figured he'd eventually give in an eat. Offered mice and rat pups every couple/few weeks. Won't take them. After a few months of this I decided I couldn't risk him starving himself to death, so offered anoles. He slams them down, so it's not a matter of not eating, it's a matter of taste. Some questions:

1. The majority of anoles and other feeder lizards sold in pet shops or ordered online are wild caught and therefore likely parasitic. How safe is it to feed these to my king?

2. I have two shelf units with snake and gecko cages on them. My king is one of the snakes on the rack. I'm wondering if his being able to see/smell my geckos may have triggered his natural instinct to prefer other reptiles as meal. Any thoughts on this? Obviously I can try moving his cage and see what happens over time, but I'm curious what others thing about this.

I understand that now that I have given him lizards it's probably going to be harder to get him back on mice, but lizards are too expensive and require care while they wait their "turn", and as stated above, I'm not sure how safe it is to feed lizards, so I want to get him back on mice if I can.

Thanks for all input.

It is my understanding that it is very risky feeding anoles, Lizards are on the menu for king snakes in the wild, There must be a reason he is refusing the rodents. Maybe a vet visit is in order? How long has he gone now without taking a rodent?
Foot Hill Reptiles

Probably since the end of last summer, beginning of Fall. In the past he has done this but it lasted a few weeks. He'd refuse his mice, so I would wait a week, give him one, wait, give him one and after maybe a month he'd eat his mouse. From that point forward he'd devour them as usual until the next time he'd refuse mice. I don't believe it's due to housing conditions or anything like that. I really think he simply wants something other than the mouse. The last time he did this I waited him out a couple months and eventually he ate his mouse. This time he was willing to wait longer than I was, and after about 3 months is when I tried a storebought lizard. He ate it instantly, so I know it's not a problem with his appetite per se. I fed him the lizard to prove one way or the other if that was the case though (if he ate it I had no reason to think there was anything wrong with him other than being picky).

I offered him a small live mouse a couple weeks ago to see whether it was actually live food he was looking for not reptiles specifically. He didn't want anything to do with it. Not that I would want to feed live rodents regularly either, but I just wanted to elimintate the "live factor" as part of the problem.

Since then I have given him lizards twice, but I'm very reluctant to give him any more. I'm thinking about using a pinkie pump just to get some nutrition into him without giving in to more lizards. He's not a little guy, but the pinkie pump is the easiest way I've used to force feed, which in and of itself is not something I do without what I consider real cause.

I think I'm going to move him from my reptile room so he isn't picking up the scent of other snakes and the geckos and just go through all the tricks with rodents again (e.g., braining, scenting) and see if I can break the cycle again.

Any tips are welcome.

Freeze it and then thaw and cut open the belly and slush a fuzzy around it its guts. Do this sevral times the first week and then he should eat mice woth scent. You ca reuse the same lizard. Just freeze him when done.

And yes, the whole bodied lizards you are feeding will introduce parasites.
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

Bluerosy...who shamelessly takes every opportunity he can to post a picture of his Peabino.

OK - but does freezing the lizard "disable" the parasites, or I am still risking infection? Obviously I need to get him back on mice so I'm willing to try this, but it seems like I might be transferring the parasites via the mouse (?).

You referred to "whole-body lizards". Are there other kinds for feeding purposes (partial lizards)?

Lastly, while I understand I should take this snake to a vet to check for internal parasites after breaking down and feeding him lizards, I'm wondering if treatment is standard and if meds are available w/o going to a vet. I ask because we don't have any herp vets in the area. There is one who will take fecal sample and ship it off to AZ for analysis - which I can do. I'm just wondering. Have never had to treat any of my herps before.

Thanks for the idea. It sounds like it could work.

No you don't need to take the snake to a vet. Whole bodied lizards CAN transfer parasites. But remember all w/c snakes have them. There is a chance you don't have any or that the snake simply flushed them out. You will not need to get the snake to a vet unless it has:

smelly runny stools
regures meals

Just cut open the belly of a lizard and place the whole fuzzy inside the body cavity of the lizard and then offer the mouse to the snake. Don't worry about any vet trips.

This is alo the time of year most kingsnakes tend to shut down from feeding. Have you considered cooling him? That is what i would do. Most finicky feeders will come out eating anything that remotely even looks like food.
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

Bluerosy...who shamelessly takes every opportunity he can to post a picture of his Peabino.

Understood with regard to the parasites - and, the more I thought about this, I realized I could buy a domestic bred lizard/gecko to do this instead and lessen the chance of parasites.

Yes, I have considered cooling him the last time this happen (which was the same time of year actually), but I've never done that so wasn't sure exactly what to do. Since I don't breed my snakes I've always just kept them at consistent heating/lighting throughout the year. I have an undertank hearter (w/o a controller to set temps) and a lamp. Would you suggest simply turning off the undertank heater altogether but maintain the light, or is it necessary to be able to control the temp and simply lower it? Here in Northern New Mexico it's pretty cold now, though our indoor temperature doesn't typically go below 62 degrees. Any tips in this regard are appreciated. Thanks.

turn off the lights and the bottom heat. Place the snake in a rubbermaid and put in closet. Check the water is fresh every week.I think 62 is to warm for a skinny snake. You want to shut him down. As long as he does not freeze 30'sF. He will be fine.

Come spring take him out and put him back in cage and turn on the heat and add mice. Lots of mice.

Viola'

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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

Bluerosy...who shamelessly takes every opportunity he can to post a picture of his Peabino.

Sexually mature Cal kings (esp males) will often refuse food all Winter, unless you can fool him with light cycle and temps. Your best bet is to darken the cage and keep the temps in all or most of the cage down in the 60-65 deg F range (55 deg lowest). Quit feeding him anoles at least a week before you cool him.

So why is he eating anoles then? Kings love lizards, and apparently he is happy to forego cooling if he has lizards. Lizards are likely easier to digest in a cage that is not as warm this time of year. But if he doesn't have lizards, he will more likely go into conservation mode. You know, seek cool temps to minimize calorie burning. You will just have to force it.

Around mid Feb, warm him up and he will eat mice again. And if he holds out for lizards, it is because you gave in previously. No more doing that. If you have to, do the scenting as explained by the others. Sometimes live mice are more enticing to snakes, so try that (after cooling is over.)
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Mark

Also, it takes about 30 days for freezing to kill most parasites.

Understood. I'd actually read something about this previously - that maybe freezing doesn't always kill them but if it does, requires awhile. I'm going to go with the cooling period for now since he's eaten a good meal about two weeks ago. Hopefully by the time I warm him back up he'll have forgotten all about lizards )

Thanks Mark. After reading your response and the other also suggesting cooling, it all made sense and I wish I had pursued this the first time it came up. It's obviously not coincindental that the two main times he has refused mice have been as we entered our colder season here. So I think it's logical to shut things down (I know he has digested since the last anoles were eaten). And, since he did have that meal, he should be good to last a few cool weeks. I did some more digging online, read an article from Robert Applegate, so I think I'm good to go. Thanks to everyone for the responses. Take care. April

April,
Depending on what part of the US you live. You will have to cool him longer than two weeks. Wait until the weather starts turning into spring, then warm and feed.

If you bring him up before the weather has changed he will still not eat. Feb is especially bad time to bring snakes up even though most people do it this way, for non feeders like yours it does not work that well. Wait until the weather changes and gets signs of spring. You snake seems to be in tune with what is going on outside and not what temps are inside.
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

Bluerosy...who shamelessly takes every opportunity he can to post a picture of his Peabino.

April, this is good advice. I am guilty alot of times of regurgitating info. I always say Feb, but I never try and feed cooled snakes until they show some activity, and where I live this is in March. In other words, I don't warm them up until they themselves act like they are ready. That is what Bluerosy is saying I think, and it really works best IMO.

And how do I know when? Well, first the snakes are a bit more active. Then I try a thawed mouse, and if the snake snatches it up while still cool, then the snake is ready for a basking spot. That simple. Where I live this occurs somewhere in March for most of the western North American colubrids and rosyboas that I have kept. Where you live it may be slightly different. Good luck.
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Mark

ditto on what Mark said.
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

Bluerosy...who shamelessly takes every opportunity he can to post a picture of his Peabino.

Thanks for the followup, Mark. I think you guys have gotten me on the right track and I'm confident this is the right solution. I appreciate the sharing of info. Take care. April

I agree. I discussed it with my husband and said I thought he needed to stay cool till sometime in March. Feb is still pretty cold here (we are at 5,500 ft elevation). I appreciate all of the great input. I've read on this for years, but have just never had the need to do it, so I wanted to be careful not to do more harm than good. Nice to have a forum to tap into other's experience. Take care.

We Humans tend to try to make our pets and their life styles fit into our pre-conceived notion of what they are as animals, and how they should be cared for. You have just crossed over the line into broader understanding. Welcome!

As a Reptile enthusiast with decades of experience with many species of snakes, and at least 4 species of Kingsnakes, I'd like to share some profound facts:

1. Many kingsnakes prefer reptiles over rodents. In the wild this is especially common in more desert areas where reptiles are more common than rodents. One biologist found that 80% of the diet of Mojave Kingsnakes consists of rattlesnakes. Mine love lizards, especially Fence Lizards and Skinks.

You will find that your snakes, like Humans, are INDIVIDUALS. Their food prefernces, even color of prey, may vary from specimen to specimen. Give them what they prefer! Fence Lizards are common in the wild, and are even abundant in many locations. So are anoles in the SE part of America.

2. Most wild animals have some parasites. Situation normal, as they normally pass thru the body during defecation. Normally, only a buildup of waste presents a parasite problem. Adult parasites are destroyed during digestion, only the eggs & larvae are the problem, but they normally pass thru in the normal cycle. Avoid buildup of waste in the enclosure and you generally avoid parasite problems.

I've fed wild-caught lizards of several species to both my Cal King and Baja King. Neither has ever had mite nor parasite problems.

3. Live prey is best for your animals. It's less convenient for Humans; best for snakes. Like you, they NEED live food & enzymes for proper metabolic processes to occur. No wild snake eats frozen-thawed animals, and they only rarely scavenge. They are ambush hunters which eat live prey.

Oh! You've heard horror stories about uneaten prey killing the snake! Okay, contact the person who wrote or told you that and get from them the:

A. Date? Location? Contact person? Ooops! Another nasty rumor quickly dispelled once you press for evidence. This has only rarely occurred; I've never known it to occur and I've kept snakes for decades…

4. I don't have snake pets; I have animal companions housed in natural biomes. Mine have extra large enclosures which mimic their natural surroundings - including rocks, lichens and native rocks & plants if possible. They enjoy interacting with me, too, especially the Garter snakes (which tend to be more inquisitive than Kings.)

The more we give them what the need to thrive, as opposed to a cage or sweater box with one hiding spot, the better they perform. That way, we are no longer domesticating wild animals; we are extending & recovering their natural range.

Thanks for your input, Ameron. I agree with much of what you said. The idea of feeding pre-killed mice/rats is definitely a choice of convenience for me because it's less expensive to buy them 1,000 at a time and just tuck them away in the extra freezer. Also, that is what my captive bred snakes were started on, so it's worked with this one exception. I would be willing to feed lizards to this snake but I really was concerned about parasites. You've shed more light on that subject though, and I'm glad to add that to my data bank.

There is another issue for me though, which is, I love lizards so I feel terrible buying them or catching them outdoors and giving them to my snake. Maybe it's a "girl thing" but I feel like I'm betraying them. It doesn't bother me that this occurs naturally between snake and lizard in the wild of course. I can hear you saying, "Get over it!"

My cages are pretty natural and I do interact daily with all of my reptiles (snakes and geckos) which is one reason I restrain myself from acquiring too many - I like to be able to relate to them as individuals and give each the time it needs in terms of cage care and for those that seem to welcome it, some one on one attention. I won't go so far as to say that they love me back )but they do know me, know my voice (the geckos), and they anticipate my visits, so I feel like they are generally content, and maybe a little happy )

Thanks again for your input. Good ideas. April

Somewhere I read a good article on the actual risks of parasites. It made sense. There is a huge connection between parasites and unclean or cramped habitat.

Otherwise, how would all wild snakes (and other animals) survive?

It's great that you relate to your snakes as individuals, and give them care. Too many peopel are Collectors, treating their snakes like bottle caps or Matchbox car replicas.

We Humans need to stop being Destroyers, Denuders and Wasters. We need to get better being Stewards.

Shine on!

Don, 48
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