Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi everyone,

Just thought I'd post an update on my earlier thread. I sent an e-mail to 4 managers @ my practice indicating my interest & in my opinion the need for a knowledgeable reptile vet to speak at our hospital & educate the staff. 2 managers responded saying they liked the idea but didn't know where to look for a speaker. The other 2 basically said I was insinuating a lack of trust for our exotics vets & scolded me like a child. I was called overzealous & it was made clear not to allow the hospital owner to know that I had sent the e-mail as it was insulting his choice in practitioners. At the end of both responses it was noted that it was a good idea. Even so, they are basically saying, how dare I suggest it.

I'm incredibly upset by this. Like, cried-in-my-car upset. In my effort to help our hospital become more learned & in effect BETTER at treating reptiles, I've basically been told to #*$! off. As you know from my earlier post I tried what I thought was the most democratic & non-confrontational way to attempt to spead current & correct information. It kills me to think *this* is the mentality of people I've thought so highly of.

My response to the inflammatory e-mails:

"Sorry everyone.
I didn't mean to ruffle any feathers or insult anyone. Perhaps it should have been worded differently. I don't know. Consider the subject dropped. Maybe I will approach it at some later date."

At any rate, if anyone has any suggestions, I'd love to hear them.

Thanks,

-Tami*

I forgot to mention, not only were the latter 2 managers' e-mails uneccesarily condescending & harsh (my opinion), they were sent to the other managers in addition to me. Nice private constuctive criticism, right?

Sounds to me like your reply back to them was a bit too nice!

Jason

Maybe the two are just worried about their cushy little jobs. Unfortunately money talks to SOMEONE in almost every profession. I'm sorry they didn't take your concern for what it was worth.

Quig
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Don't interupt me when I'm talkin' to myself

they always start private stuff with "so and so said...."...when they shouldn't......

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Good Vets are VERY....VERY...hard to find, I havn't found one yet...either, for the basic reason of they either are like used car salesmen, and try to get you to pay for as much unnecessary stuff as possible, or they seem jaded and know it alls....I have caught Vets referencing the EXACT same book I have at home "Reptile Medicine and Surgery".....Many times they over medicate, jump to conclusions that are false, and just don't have the expereince to be a Reptile Vet, I honestly think I could give better medical advice than many of the so called "Herp Vets"...many times these "Exotic Animal Vets" do mainly Dogs and Cats, with the ocassional Rabbit or Ferret or Box Turtle...there for they are an expert on snakes and lizards too...but in my expereince they are NOT.

I thought it was funny, that Vets go to the same length of schooling as a human doctor does, but get paid the fraction of what they make. You ask "why would someone go threw all that schooling to only make a fraction of what they could make"...it has to be the love of animals right?.....I havn't seen that in my expereince, they might like animals...but very few vets seem to truely care, they have a business to run, and every cent counts...

I might seem harsh on Vets, but I am only commenting on my expereinces with them, not all vets...I think by implying what you did, you stepped on thier egos...and anyone with a medical background is prone to having an ego right?....lol Just kiddin those of you who have medical backgrounds...lol

Sorry for your bad expereince...
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Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

I totally agree. It's all about ego and stepping on toes. The two that rejected the recommendation are probably worried someone might actually teach them something.

Most vets don't have a clue when it comes to reptile medicine. I happen to be one of the few lucky ones. My vet has been great and really knows his stuff.

Brandon Osborne
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www.brandonosbornereptiles.com

Maybe it's time to find another vet to work for.
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Happy Herping,
Jody Barnes
Royal Kreationz

My snakes aren't fat, they're big boned.

.....tell us where it is and maybe some locals can go their with a snake problem , then yell at the vet for being stupid and trying to do something wrong?......don't try this with people you know, they will screw up and say something to let the vets know that they know you.people are dumb....LOL..like you needed to be told that.

anyways......vets aren't perfect.....some aren't that good...I've seen it too......

.......took an eggbound L. t. stuarti to a vet "that knew snakes" to cut the stuck eggs out.....it was right at the vent almost and I couldn't get it out, couldn't cut it and get it out that year, ( this year I would do different things with her a little but anyways,) the vet basically squeezed the living stuff out of this girl till she went in shock and I thought she'd rip, well she did start to rip, stupid, I took it to him so as not to rip and go into shock. ......anyways....you get it..and she died in a day I think.....didn't need the Baytril for a dead female milk.

.......do as I do at work, do my job, do it well, and watch the stupidity spread........

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That sounds absolutely horrible!
Ugh.. it's THAT type of thing that I was trying to work at avoiding. How can continuing education be a bad thing, for any profession? Especially health care!
That said, I most likely will continue to do my job as best I can, & quietly look for a qualified reptile vet in the area.

Anyone know of any in northern MA?

no idea of your area..I am in Pa......

do your own vet work......you can take samples for the labs,most good vets just do a float or send it out anyways....learn to aspirate unlaid eggs/ovum yourself.......it takes 3 hands to do unless you aren't afraid to use your mouth......do your own medicating, you have the resources to buy the stuff needed, a bottle of Amiglyde and some Panacur and liquid Flagyll and you are set.......(Baytril, Droncit for special needs).....

......good luck......

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IF they want to rob you for syringes with or without needles,,,,,,look at Agways and farm related stores for cheaper 3cc or 5cc ones......and 16 or 18 gauge needles..

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You know - if it were me - I think instead of dropping it for fear of ruffling feathers - I would start by telling them how passionately I feel about these animals - and that it concerns me when I hear advice being given that could be detrimental to the care of these animals. State examples and bring in resources to back up your facts.

If they aren't willing to go with the speaker idea - perhaps they would be willing to pitch in and buy a couple of basic keeper reference guides to bone up on the proper care - or at the very least not pretend like they are exotic pet specialists - see if you can't find a real reptile vet in your area to which you can refer herpers.

Sadly people are relying on these vets and they are for whatever reason winging it and I don't consider that acceptable.
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Tosha
JET Pythons

TamiLynne,

Tosha has some good advice. Obviously you don't want to lose your job but you also feel strongly. I have some ideas that the others may not know about.

First of all, do your vets belong to VIN? It is the premier information service for vets and if they belong, you could ask them to ask for another opinion on the advice to make sure you are doing the right thing. VIN has consultants in reptile medicine that are some of the best in the country.

Next, register for membership in VSPN (www.vspn.org). It is a free service for veterinary support staff. If you work for a vet, you are eligible. They don't have to be members of VIN either. They have a reptile section on their message boards where you can compare notes with knowledgable vet techs. They also occasionally have reptile classes for techs and assistants.

You have to walk a fine line here but Tosha has a good suggestion by preferencing anything with how much you care for your animals but I would say at the same time at least try to buffer anything with flattery about their long schooling and knowledge. Yeah it's BS but sometimes that's the best way to get where you want to go. When you suggested bringing in an expert, you basically said you didn't trust their knowledge. Now you have to back track a little and kiss butt In reality, very little time is spent in vet school dealing with exotic animals.

Ginger

I agree with Tosha and ConstrictorKeeper - Don't drop it! Talk to the owner, go over the heads of the jerks. It's not just for the sake of your snake(s).

Before going to the owner, pick up or make copies of good resources to prove your point. The more legitimate and credible sources you have that back you up, the more legitimate and credible your arguments will seem. You can list websites that say exactly what we do, book titles, and also contact info for any individuals willing to say "Yeah, she's right".
Tips:
Someone's personal website they put up after a year in the hobby is not going to be as credible as Kevin McCurley's caresheet.
I would go with older people where possible, because whether or not it's true, people believe that age = wisdom.
Use more male sources than female, because this is seen as a "men's" hobby and men will be taken more seriously than women. This matters more if your supervisors are primarily male.
Published books > Reptile Magazine > "big breeder" website > personal website

Treat it kind of like writing a college research paper, and they won't be able to tell you that you're wrong. "You don't believe that source? Here's another. No? Here's another. And another. And another. And if you want, here's the email to a couple folks who've been keeping and breeding these snakes for at least the past 5 years."
This tactic has worked for me before. Granted, the people being proven wrong don't like it, but when you have the sources to back yourself up, you can't lose.

Good luck, and keep us posted!

~jenny
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"Polysyllabism in no way insures that what you're saying is actually worth being heard." - Blake (an e-friend of mine)

"I have never made but one prayer to god, a very short one: "O lord, make my enemies ridiculous." And he granted it." - Voltaire

From the original post she made it sounds like she did NOT send these emails to the Vets, but to various managers. So, before we jump all over the "stupid vets" - look at who is addressing this issue - desk jockeys who know spit about medicine.

I say skip the pencil pushers... they like to debate everything until it is either a dead issue or (if it's a good idea) until it sounds like something they came up with.

Go to the actual vets at your practice, suggest the ideas to them and the owner. Any doctor worth their salt (Human or Vet) will not pass on the opportunity to provide better care for their patients, often what happens is policy, money and time get in the way. If you can find someone willing to speak and can organize it (even without the desk-jockey-pencil-pushers) go for it.

In fact, if you pitch it to the owner and the vets that you would be willing to take care of the scheduling and finding of a speaker as long as they are willing to show up... it might go down easier.

At the very least, you could ask the owner to invest some money in a few of the top reptile care books. At least that way the vets have a starting point for reference... maybe even compile a list of other more experienced herp vets they could contact if they have specific questions. Most PROFESSIONALS have little problem helping out another doctor with a simple Q&A session over the phone or email.

Let's not jump down the throat of the vets. They do NOT go to as much school as a human doctor. Plus, in the time that they do attend they are required to learn the anatomy, physiology and growth cycle of many different species. Human doctors need to know that info about one species. Vets need to focus most of their training on the animals they will be treating the most: livestock and "traditional" pets. Until herps become more popular to the general public as a whole there will be a shortage of well trained herp vets.

Tami,

Kudos for trying! An endeavor worth doing is rarely easy. Everyone is different, but I prefer the direct approach. If you have a concern with me, I would rather you bring it directly to my attention so it can be resolved. Here are some suggestions:

* Take some time to research and fully document the information you want to present. Treat your research as professional as possible. Get as much detail as possible and support with facts. "Everyone at Kingsnake says..." is not a fact. However, "Tracy Barker, PHD of VPI and frequent contributor to Kingsnake states..." holds much more weight. Even if you are ignored, your efforts will go a good distance not only in higher learning of exotic reptiles but in other ways that will help you in the future.

* Determine the best approach for information delivery. Is your boss open and receptive? Does he/she have a "God" complex? Base your delivery on his/her personality. You may have to "ask" rather than "tell" when presenting facts. For example "Dr. Jones states that Ball Pythons require high humidity, that they are nocturnal and their burrows in Africa maintain a steady humidity of 68%. This makes sense to me. What do you think"?

* Be honest, but be professional and show all due respect.

* Preface your discussion by saying how much you love veterinary medicine (only if true) and you are using this as a learning experience and opportunity to grow and that you would appreciate their time, "ear" and experience - stroke their ego if you will.

* In the end, nothing may come of this, but be thankful and appreciative just the same.

Keep your head held high and good luck!
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

>>I have caught Vets referencing the EXACT same book I have at home "Reptile Medicine and Surgery".....

There is nothing wrong with looking at references. You should be happy that the vet you use has this text. It's the vets that don't have references, or never look things up that you have to worry about.

>>They do NOT go to as much school as a human doctor

This statement is 100% false. Vet school is 4 years. Med school is 4 years.

As far as the rest of the vet bashing on this thread... unfortunately generalizations are being made from isolated experiences. The authors of these statements are no better than the general public who believe that reptile owners are weirdos because their opinions are based on the idiots they see on the news doing stupid things with reptiles.

Trying to treat your own animals is not a good idea. Sure some procedures are easy to do and anyone can give Baytril to a reptile but does that mean you are doing the best for you animal? I don’t think so. What do you do when what you think is a simple procedure goes horribly wrong? What about when you give Baytril for a month (which usually is NOT the ideal antibiotic to use) and now your animal is much sicker because you are treating it incorrectly? Some of the worst patients I’ve seen have been ones that owners tried to treat first and then when things got really bad it is sometimes too late.
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Michael McFadden, M.S., D.V.M.

Everyone,

Thank you thank you thank you for your input. As an extremely passive and non-confrontational person, it certainly helps to have backup!

You've all brought some excellent ideas and perspectives to the table. &.. with the support I've received here I've started to change my mind on abandoning the issue. It IS something I believe in, & it IS something worth pursuing & correcting.. so long as I do it with the proper approach.

That said, I'll start my researching & hopefully be able to put up a good fight. If anyone has any resources to share, please do.

Thank you all again, for giving me courage!

-Tami*

Hope everything works out.
Link

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