Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have read on here that many brumate and many do not. I was wondering when do you introduce the pair for breeding when you do not brumate them? In the spring? Anytime? After a dinner and show?..lol,,,,
Or is there a sign I should look for.

David

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Ball Python
Jungle Carpet Python
Eastern King
Mexican Black King
Sonoran Gopher
Aberrent Cal King
Anduran Milk
Hypo Brooks
Amel Motley Corn
White Sided Bull
Striped Pacific Gopher

I love the smell of aspen shavings in the morning...lol

"To serve man..it's...it's a cookbook!"

As soon as the female develops a "string of pearls" she will indeed copulate. A string of pearls is the slighly enlarged ovum in her oviducts. They feel like a string of pearls when you palpate them. Cheers

Thanks so much. I will start checking.Can they develop them at anytime or only in the spring? The past few years she has been laying "slugs" in March-April.

David
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Ball Python
Jungle Carpet Python
Eastern King
Mexican Black King
Sonoran Gopher
Aberrent Cal King
Anduran Milk
Hypo Brooks
Amel Motley Corn
White Sided Bull
Striped Pacific Gopher

I love the smell of aspen shavings in the morning...lol

"To serve man..it's...it's a cookbook!"

but if she normally is laying eggs/slugs than she most likely ovulated about 2 months(or so) before. i would try introducing them now or at least feeling for the string of pearls
adam jeffery
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" a.k.a. farfrumugen "
hybrid breeders association
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1.1 sinacorns
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1.1 kenyan sand boas
1.1 mbk
1.1 albino corns
1.1 childrens python
1.2 ghost corns
2.2 butter(both females motley)
2.2 pyroxgreerixruthvenixalternaxcampbellixholbrooki
0.1 hypo pyroxgreerixruthvenixalternaxcampbellixholbrooki
1.0 snow corns
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0.1 rosy boa

Kingsnakes REQUIRE a cool nights and warm days to reproduce. If thats allowed, they can produce at anytime of the year.

If you allow them to become cool in the winter and warm up in the summer, they will cycle when they start to recieve enough heat and before it gets too hot. So yes, that occurs mostly in spring.

If you allow them to cool(hibernate/brumate) They normally cycle two weeks after the first shed, or the day before or the day after the second shed. Of course this is a "normal" and normal does not always have to happen. The reason is, we all do not have the same weather or the same cage conditions.

Because these are "cold blooded" reptiles, they are at our mercy in captivity. So results are always comparible.

When I bred hundreds of kings, I kept them in groups, the females in the groups would align their cycles after a while to cycle on nearly the same day and lay ON the same day(even if they did not cycle on the same day. Cheers and good luck

I was wondering since i always wait till the warmth of spring to introduce my colubrids together,you mention waiting til ovulation to introduce the male ,but over on the Ball Python side, breeders copulate their animals all winter long, knowing that ovulation will not occur until the spring,is this help to insure fertilization,?............Chris

Kingsnakes will eat each other, ball pythons (usually) won't. Ovulation can happen any time with the balls, so why not keep breeding until she's ready to go? Follicles in a female ball can sometimes be hard to find. Females can mate 50 times and not ovulate, or they can mate once and lay a viable clutch. They can (and do) retain the sperm until they feel ready to lay.

Kingsnakes I'm not so sure about, but I believe they've been bred in captivity for a lot longer than ball pythons, so more is probably known about their cycles and reproductive habits.

~jenny
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"Polysyllabism in no way insures that what you're saying is actually worth being heard." - Blake (an e-friend of mine)

"I have never made but one prayer to god, a very short one: "O lord, make my enemies ridiculous." And he granted it." - Voltaire

Ball pythons are not kingsnakes.

Pythons develop the ovum that they are going to use the previous year. And they are winter breeders from a completely different climate. I don't know that true sperm storage has ever been documented in kingsnakes.

So when you say you can feel the "String of pearls" they are ready to copulate? So ONCE you feel the string of pearls should I put them together right then and there?
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1.0.0 Lampropeltis getulus californiae (Banded, Coastal Phase)
0.1.0 Lampropeltis getulus californiae Striped San Diego Phase
0.1.0 Lampropeltis getulus californiae Aberrant High White
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0.0.1 Eublepharis macularius Paster Leopard Gecko
1.1.0 Gopherus agassizii California Desert Tortoises
0.0.2 Sceloporus occidentalis Western Fence Lizards
2.1.0 Trachemys scripta elegans Red Eared Sliders
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0.2.0 Mini Rex rabbits
0.1.0 cat
1.0.0 cat
0.1.0 American Bulldog

Ovulation is what breeders look for. If you know your females you can tell from their appearance that a female is ovulating. Usually with colubrids this means they get fat and the skin a little tight. It is different than a stuffed look of a well fed animals. If you know what the reproductive system looks like and where it is located on a snake then you will know what to look for.

There are many reason that a female lays slugs. But all of them come down to the eggs not getting fertilized by the males sperm. Even a fat snake (fat deposits collect around the ovum on a female) the sperm sometimes cannot get to the eggs to fertilize because the fat tissues are blocking them. But I highly doubt that is what happened to your snake. Just an example. I reccomend the Barkers (VPI) tapes on their website to learn about the reproductive system and how it all works. If you can understand that then you will be successful breeding.

d Does anyone have a diagram of the reproductive system of a female snake they can post? That would help a lot and further discussion.
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

Bluerosy...who shamelessly takes every opportunity he can to post a picture of his Peabino.

You can easily tell a female is going to cycle by the buildup of internal fat. This fat is then coverted to yolk to enlarge the ovum.

You can see this, about a week before the string of pearls. It is fairly easy to notice.

With wild females, and some captives, THIS DOES NOT OCCUR. In nature, and at the times I/we get the captive conditions right. You cannot tell(visually) a female is gravid until right after she sheds before laying eggs. Most wild and some captives, lay from one to five days after shedding.

I imagine(theory/guessing) this is because in nature they have a huge range of conditions to pick from. And we offer them crap to pick from.

A question I often ask field herpers is, How often have you found visually gravid females that held eggs for a month? In most cases, if you can tell their gravid, they lay within a few days(even in bags in the field)hahahahahahahahaha

This is restricted to kingsnakes, as the rattlesnakes on our site, are gravid ALL THE FRIGGIN TIME. With the lowest numbers in sept. Cheers

Thanks everyone for the info. This is the first time to breed for me, so hoping to now get it right. Hopefully I will be painting the nursery this year...lol
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Ball Python
Jungle Carpet Python
Eastern King
Mexican Black King
Sonoran Gopher
Aberrent Cal King
Anduran Milk
Hypo Brooks
Amel Motley Corn
White Sided Bull
Striped Pacific Gopher

I love the smell of aspen shavings in the morning...lol

"To serve man..it's...it's a cookbook!"

...but is there a necessity, for health reasons or otherwise, to brumate snakes that you do not intend to breed the following spring?

I mean, if I wanted snakes to breed the spring after next, is there an advantage/disadvantage in brumating/not brumating now? Apart from what I would assume would be the benefit of experience if I don't get it right or something?
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1.1 Florida Kingsnake
1.0 Kisatchie Cornsnake

Brumating is not for the sake of the snake, its for the direct convienence of the keeper. They can take time off working on them.

To think of it another way, kingsnakes come for areas that are cold in the winter and FROM AREAS THAT ARE NOT COLD. They only hibernate/brumate, if the conditions FORCE them too. As in, to survive the cold and lack of food. In areas that do not get cold, they do not HAVE TO BECOME INACTIVE, so they can feed and stay active year around.

In my humble opinion, keepers are fairly, hmmmmmmmmm oh heck, STUPID, to think you have to hibernate snakes. And naive to accept that as a method of breeding. They(the snakes) hibernate to survive poor conditions, not to breed. They hope to survive winters so that they can reproduce.

In that, I do not hibernate snakes, lizards, turtles, torts, of all manner of species and have no problem breeding them. In fact, I recieved three clutchs from turtles this week, One western pond and two spotted turtle clutches. Did anyone notice, its mid january. Oh yea, I just dug up two clutches of monitors today too.

But if you do it right(hibernate/brumate) it does not hurt them. But it does slow down their reproduction. Cheers

i am learning a lot in this thread and so i have in the past. i have pines that were put down since first of January and been thinking about to bring them back up in couple of weeks of Feb just to see how things work in the spiring. i want to try different things every year to find what could work for me. i myself don't like when i cool my snakes since i like cleaning/feeding handling them and i don't like taking a break lol. yes i only have 20 something snakes not a lot comparing to some of you.
question is, it wouldn't hurt to bring up my pines soon? i think not.

“In my humble opinion, keepers are fairly, hmmmmmmmmm oh heck, STUPID”
HaHaHaHaHa!!! I like that.

I saw this and it reminded me of you FR!

Everybody has different set up. My set up is in a building that has minimal insulation so the actual room temps are similar to what is going on outside. A person who keeps his snakes in the living room would not be able to use my examples.

I keep the heat on my snakes but the room gets down to freezing. The snakes still choose the cool side and rarely sit on the heat. They basically seek out what they think is right.

Right now 3/4 of my 2007 hatchlings have shut down from eating. They were in very 'hot' containers so what this means I have some in containers with heat turned up all the way and some with moderate heat. The ones that are feeding have the shelves with heat tape turned all the way up. I want them to feed since they are 2007 hatchlings but you cannot force a snake to stay hot if it gives up eating. So some are in a brumation state and some are not. All my adults have the heat turned on low in case they want to sit and warm up but they mostly stay away from the heat unless the temps drop below 45F. I actually feed some of my females during winter if I think they need it.
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

Bluerosy...who shamelessly takes every opportunity he can to post a picture of his Peabino.

bluerosy...that's a cool set up you have and just about as close as nature. that tell me that the snakes have the most option they want/need.

ps-i feel like i am forcing my snakes to cool down and to breed. lol

I am sorry, I just could not think of a better word. Its been known for a very long time that you do not need to hibernate/brumate snakes. So that eliminates ignorance(lack of awareness) So what else would you call it?

Its not about brumating or not, its about thinking only one works. Its about not really understanding the snakes, but only following some sort of odd instructions.

Again, snakes have been bred in all manner of ways for many decades in mass quanities. Yet the knowledge of how they actually function, is not widespread. I guess that is what is stupid. Not any individual keeper, but the lack of understanding. Cheers

This year I decided to change my set up a little. Instead of shutting off heat all together when I noticed the snakes slowing down in the fall I simply turned it down a tad and opened the window. This means that my racks range from about 55 to 85 degrees. I am also occasionally offering food to everyone. A few of the 18 month old females have accepted food every once in a while which I am happy to see. After this they go and bask for a day or two before returning to the cold side.

However, NONE of my adults or juvenile males have fed and they NEVER use the heated side. THEY ARE HIBERNATING AT 55 DEGREES BY CHOICE!

So I have to ask... If these snakes come from a wide range of habitats from Nor cal where some individuals must brumate for months on end and southern AZ where they can remain active and feeding year round... If they have this amazing range of behaviors than DOES BRUMATING HURT? Do snakes from cooler places reproduce less, or live shortened lifespans because of it?

Frank I have heard you say that if a female is provided the means to conserve energy that she can breed after only 5 meals!

I will not deny that brumation has its advantages for me the keeper. If it is beneficial to the snakes than I will gladly do it. If the snakes are indifferent then I will still gladly do it. So is there any reason not to brumate? especially if the snakes seem to want to do it on their own?

** I should mention that I am in Colorado where the environmental cues (shortened day length/drastic temp changes) are very strong.

Let me clarify this. You said, THEY ARE HIBERNATING BY CHOICE.

At 55F. Sir, what gives you that idea that 55F causes them to hibernate?

I have said this many times, on our field studies, we have commonly found snakes out and active at temps BELOW 55F. With boas and pythons, I have found many species and many numbers VERY ACTIVE at temps in the 50's to 60's, in fact some boas and pythons are commonly active at those temps and not at temps above those.

The problem for most herpers and having them commonly finding this is, They do not look where snakes live, they look where snakes go. They look where snakes go to raise their temps, as in AC or crossing roads. Both of which are NOT where snakes live. Once you understand and fine where snakes live SPEND THEIR NON ACTIVE TIME, you can then determine what snakes actually do.

Most snakes spend most of their lives underground, but once you find where that is, they will commonly come out in all but the most adverse conditions, ALL WINTER. But this is restricted to a very small area.

MOST SNAKE SPECIES, pick very cool temps 50's to 60's, year-a-round, when they are not digesting food, incubating embryos or eggs, shedding their skin or healing wounds. But when any of these occur, they then go to heat to finish the task. As you mentioned.

In some cases, I had such healthy snakes, that they could consume food, digest it and never need temps above 60f. Unfortunately, most could not. Consider when judging health, the individuals that are the most versitile, are the most healthy. Not the ones with the least ability. Consider, Health IS the abilities to perform successfully in the widest varity of conditions, not the narrowest. After that difinition, every other discription of health is only manmade BS.

Which leads back to you thinking 55F is hibernating. As I mentioned, finding pythons crossing the road at 55F must mean that they were hibernating in the road. Or finding colubrids out crawling at 55F means they are hibernating out crawling around.

One day on our field site, in the winter, my partner found three seperate Ridgenosed rattlesnakes, coiled in the open, in the shade, IN THE MOURNING(which means after a very cold night, low teens) at air temps in the forties. ME, you ask what was I doing, I was looking in the sunny warm spots. Hmmmmmmmmm I learned a lesson that day.

So yes, i lieu of my experience, both in captivity and in the field, I think the use of hibernation and the understanding of hibernation is indeed STUPID. Again, igorance is when a person is not aware and makes a mistake. Stupid, is after a person becomes aware and then makes the same mistake.

Where stupidity and ignorance concerned with this subject is, using terms that do not fit the animal or what the animal is doing.

And yes there is more to this, but one must have to ability to ask the right questions in order to understand the answers. Cheers

This is another subject that is extremely interesting to me.
There are some pretty good Thermal Ecology studies written and others in progress.

A good place to start is Peterson et al 93', then go on to some studies on Pituophis ruthveni, Northern Watersnakes, and Black Rat snakes.

Looking these over will increase awareness and understanding, but like Frank says, we're still pretty "stupid" about the whole thing.
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http://www.kingsnake.com/mexicana/
http://www.joeforks.com

I don't think that the exact temperature had anything to do with whether or not they are hibernating. Like I said I have some females that are in cages with a 55-85 degree gradient that are not hibernating at all. But i also have males that have not eaten in 4 months, and remain motionless as cold as they can get for days on end.

I think that those snakes are hibernating. Call it what you will.

I wish I could make it colder to see how far down they would really choose to go, however I am faced with the realities of my setup and it is not possible.

So my question is... If a snake chooses to sit at 55 degrees for months on end, year after year, then why am I paying to keep the heat on?

More importantly it brings up other quetions...

Are some snakes more biologically programed than others to shut down their metabolism for part of the year? Maybe an eastern from NJ and an eastern from SC are really evolved to handle changing seasons very differently. Maybe they are more in tune to their outside environments... Maybe breeders in AZ or FL notice that their animals don't want to hibernate but in Vermont they do...hmmmm

Is a snake that hibernates less productive or less healthy in any way than a snake that remains active? You have said yourself... you can either crank the heat and feed them tons, or allow them to conserve energy and feed less. Is one better than the other?

Fundamentally I think we are talking about the same thing...trying to the best of our ability to let the snakes come as close as possible to doing whatever they want...I am not trying to define hibernation...or recommend something as a blanket procedure for breeding snakes... But you make it sound like a hibernating snake in captivity is doing something wrong (Or ignorant or stupid) and I disagree.

Like I said, why keep the heat on if 95% of my cal kings don't use it?

This picture below was taken at the end of last winter after this guy hadn't eaten in several months. He went on to breed with several different females (during which time he didn't eat either) and then bred a few again to double clutch. At 15 and over 5 feet he looks like hes doing fine to me. And he has hibernated by choice every winter of his life, whether I tried to "Allow" him to stay awake or "Forced" him to hibernate.

Cheers

The reason I cannot finish your posts is, You have a giant stumbling block and you refuse to look at it. So the rest of your thread is worthless.

The first thing you have to understand is, THESE are reptiles, as reptiles, they do not have a constant body temp. That is their advantage. anytime a reptile is not doing something important to its life, it conserves energy(by lowering its body temps from seeking lower ambient temps. They do that at any and all times of year. Not just winter or summer
(to hibernate, is to lower body temps in winter. To brumate is to lower body temps in summer), instead its linked to function. If they have the resources to function, they do not conserve/hibernate/brumate, they instead, LIVE THEIR LIFE. If conditions fall below whats needed to successfully function, they conserve(wait out poor conditions).

So you say you have males that choose to hibernate. Let me see, no food, no females, nothing to do, WHAT THE HECK DO YOU EXPECT THEM TO DO?

Heres the test and reality, you have snakes that are hibernating, I have the same types that are feeding and growing and will indeed reproduce. SAME SNAKES. I have montane and common kings(apples to apples)

Now consider, I also have the same species in another room(a room that gets cold) are not not feeding, Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Heck, the rooms are seperated by 6 inches. So explain to me how its all about their behavioral need to hibernate.

Six inches seperates active snakes from inactive snakes. DUDE, its ALL about conditions. YOU have to support them to be active. YOU control the weather and conditions. You force them to hibernate, then say, SEE THEY HIBERNATE. I am trying very hard not to pick on you, but you should be able to see how I think its stupid.

Then you say, they have choices from 55F to 85F, who the frog droppings ever said thats a proper temp range, That sir, SUCKS and if thats all they had in nature, THEY WOULD CEASE TO EXSIST.

Try giving a range of 55F to 100F(small hotspot) You see, that is indeed the range most colubrids pick from. Of course its an average, as they will indeed choose both higher and lower.

Why I mention stupidity is, YOU(keepers here, not necessarily you) give them no choices to pick from, then say and think, that is normal
(stupid). ITs kinda like saying you, as in YOU, do not like to go outside. Well if you were living in a hut on the north pole and you were naked, of course you would not go outside. But if you were naked in Bora Bora, you would frolic naked on the beach. And thats the very same you. YOU ARE CONTROLLING THEM, they are not controlling themselves.

The above analogy sounds silly, but its dead on. YOU DO NOT PROVIDE the conditions to allow them to make, NORMAL NATURAL DECISIONS. Then you tell them that is what they are. Yes, I kinda think that is stupid of us(of all of us) to do.

So, I have a room with a number of snakes happily feeding like pigs, and I have several species of turtles laying eggs and I have monitors, laying eggs like pez despencers, RIGHT THE HECK NOW. and its mid January. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm I guess I don't get it, but indeed, I do get it, as I am recieving eggs NOW. hahahahahahahahahahahaha. Oh yea, these turtles are suppose to hibernate too.

Lastly please use some sense of humor, as its really not all that important to me, as I am not having problems or wondering about hibernation. If I want them inactive, I simply give them conditions to become inactive, if I want them to be active, I support that, if I want them to breed, then I support that. Its not about HIBERNATION or brumation. THOSE ARE SIMPLY BEHAVIORS TO WAIT OUT CONDITIONS THAT DO NOT SUPPORT LIVING. Which is a reptilian advantage.

Again, I am not picking directly on you, your just the one brave enough to have this conversation. And in that, I admire you. So please think about the animal, and not some stupid recipe for keeping snakes in tiny boxes. Out of respect for the animals(you say you love) think about them.

The reality is, the advantage of captivity is to not allow poor conditions, That is, in captivity they do not have to get too hot or too cold or be forced into inactivity. Or lack food, or lack water. Those are the things that force inactivity on natural snakes. We CAN AVOID THAT. hahahahahahahaha

The fact that folks(many) here do not have the slightest idea of what reptiles are, is very very very sad, specially after all these years of widespread understanding. Cheers

I really don’t think there is any such thing as hibernation to a reptile. It is a mammal thing, and we use that word in speaking about reptiles because we are familiar with that concept. With a cold blooded creature, they are in a constant state of “ambient”. I believe they will search for places that offer the best bang for the buck for surviving off their last meal. They seek sunshine and warmth when they need a feed, and cooler spots to slow the metabolism after a feed.
Here in south Florida, it is a well known thing that we have some snakes that share the long burrows of gopher tortoise. I can tell you that even in the hottest days of summer, it can get quite cold underground. In fact, it can get quite cold just a few inches under ground. Snakes spend a majority of the time in what we would consider “cold” for captive maintenance. Even snakes you think of as semi-tropical like our indigos, diamondbacks, etc.

Zach:
Are some snakes more biologically programed than others to shut down their metabolism for part of the year? Maybe an eastern from NJ and an eastern from SC are really evolved to handle changing seasons very differently. Maybe they are more in tune to their outside environments... Maybe breeders in AZ or FL notice that their animals don't want to hibernate but in Vermont they do...hmmmm

FR:
ITs kinda like saying you, as in YOU, do not like to go outside. Well if you were living in a hut on the north pole and you were naked, of course you would not go outside. But if you were naked in Bora Bora, you would frolic naked on the beach. And thats the very same you. YOU ARE CONTROLLING THEM, they are not controlling themselves.

I think what Zack is saying that snakes kept outside of geographical ranges tend to do with whats going on outside (without actually going outside) irregardless of giving them selection.

FR:
So, I have a room with a number of snakes happily feeding like pigs, and I have several species of turtles laying eggs and I have monitors, laying eggs like pez despencers, RIGHT THE HECK NOW. and its mid January. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm I guess I don't get it, but indeed, I do get it, as I am recieving eggs NOW. hahahahahahahahahahahaha. Oh yea, these turtles are suppose to hibernate too.

Would snakes do this indoors if living on the north pole?

FR:
THOSE ARE SIMPLY BEHAVIORS TO WAIT OUT CONDITIONS THAT DO NOT SUPPORT LIVING. Which is a reptilian advantage.

But if snakes CHOOSE feed they will sit on the hotspot. If they choose to to eat they sit on the cool side and simply wait. For what?

FR
Try giving a range of 55F to 100F(small hotspot) You see, that is indeed the range most colubrids pick from. Of course its an average, as they will indeed choose both higher and lower.

Kinda hard to do in sweater boxes. Based on this i will go into my room and take accurate reading of temps of the snakes and their cool and hot end of encloser they are in. I will do this with a temp gun and post and try and adjust the temps as close as possible given they are in a small area..

I think the point that Zach was making is a snake will react to the conditions outside (based on where the snake is geographically) irregardless of the optimum conditions and selection of temp gradients. A keeper then sees this and turns down the temps because the size of a typical sweater box does not give the temperature gradient needed to make the snake cool enough to conserve its stores. It is more a practical thing because of the size of sterliet/rubbermaids most breeders keep them in.

Maybe this debate should be more focused on the size of the encloser (which i know has been brought up by FR before)than just giving opitimum conditions. But really knowbody know what eastern getula do underground in northern hemispheres in the wild. I really doubt that zonata eat lizards during the winter months even though they are in close proximity to them. So that means either A), the snakes can't get warm enough or.. B) they refuse to eat and choose a period because on there is nothing else to do (breed, lay, eat)and wait for spring. But why? If turtles will reproduce under optimum conditions why won't snakes do it underground all year long?

I am not siding either way as we have to do what works in capitivty. And that is to get snakes to reproduce in the most successful way possible..

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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

Bluerosy...who shamelessly takes every opportunity he can to post a picture of his Peabino.

sorry about the typos. I hope you can guess what I was saying.

If they choose NOT to eat they sit on the cool side and simply wait.

There are others and i hope you can wade through them.
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

Bluerosy...who shamelessly takes every opportunity he can to post a picture of his Peabino.

I think snakes sense many more things than heat, humidity and security. Day length, angle of sun and shadows, wind speed and direction, scents of seasonal plants, etc. could all provide potential cues for the snake. There is probably internal clocks as well. With captive snakes behaviors can be supported, that's for sure. Behaviors can also be broken. So what are we really doing when we get a snake to feed, breed, etc. through the winter? Are we supporting it, or are we breaking it? As a wild horse can be broken to behave the way we want it to.

What we are doing is “farming” them. Part of the process of domesticating them. Taking a wild form and finding a way to maximize yield and results to our desire. Taking clues from the natural cycle is basic beginning to artificial maintenance. We attempt to streamline the requirements to the most basic and necessary only to accomplish the reproductive cycle and maintenance from hatchling until repeat of cycle. It is reduced to a pretty unnatural existence, but one that accomplishes our purpose. In the short term, we are producing animals for the pet trade that are calm, content and free of parasites. In the long term, maybe we will see a drop off of vigor or something from wild types, but just as well may see animals perfected for captive maintenance.

Snakes have not been that domesticated yet. It's not like the dog which all trace back to the wolve from Asia.
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

Bluerosy...who shamelessly takes every opportunity he can to post a picture of his Peabino.

I don't disagree but I was specifically posing the question: when you get a snake to eat and breed during winter, what have you done? Have you supported what that snake wanted to do? Or have you broken the instinct that that snake naturally has?
I suspect it varies from idividual to individual, especially among wide ranging species. If you take a zonata from 6,000 feet in the Sierras, that lives in a shady north facing canyon and get it to feed and breed in winter, you have probably broken it's natural instinct. Or at least encouraged a behavior that is more rare for that population. If you take a zonata from a south facing slope at 100 feet elevation in Malibu Canyon and get it to feed and breed during winter, you are probably supporting a behavior that is alot more common among that population.

I don't disagree but I was specifically posing the question: when you get a snake to eat and breed during winter, what have you done? Have you supported what that snake wanted to do? Or have you broken the instinct that that snake naturally has?
I suspect it varies from idividual to individual, especially among wide ranging species. If you take a zonata from 6,000 feet in the Sierras, that lives in a shady north facing canyon and get it to feed and breed in winter, you have probably broken it's natural instinct. Or at least encouraged a behavior that is more rare for that population. If you take a zonata from a south facing slope at 100 feet elevation in Malibu Canyon and get it to feed and breed during winter, you are probably supporting a behavior that is alot more common among that population.

Same goes for Charina (rubber boa) from certain areas. Some are notorious for going off foob from august all the way until spring. Ryan Hoyer said they just gorge themselves during certain times of year and to keep them one must stuff them like a sausage when they eat so they can make it the rest of the time.

I have had good luck with washington rubber boas though as they eat better than most.
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

Bluerosy...who shamelessly takes every opportunity he can to post a picture of his Peabino.

Frank,

You have snakes in different rooms and they do different things. Seems pretty obvious to me.

I have snakes in different drawers of the SAME RACK that are choosing to behave VERY differently under the same conditions.

>>>So you say you have males that choose to hibernate. Let me see, no food, no females, nothing to do, WHAT THE HECK DO YOU EXPECT THEM TO DO?

Except for the fact that I said in my first post (the one you evidently still haven't read) that I have been offering them food. And funily enough that you should write that because this year for the first time I tried introducing males and females in winter to see what they would do...The answer for those who care...absolutely nothing.

>>>>now consider, I also have the same species in another room(a room that gets cold) are not not feeding, Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Heck, the rooms are seperated by 6 inches. So explain to me how its all about their behavioral need to hibernate.

OK, I will. YOU ARE IN ARIZONA. So are both rooms.

When I say my cages are 55-85 that is an average. The 85 stays constant (its on a thermostat), but the window is open and the cold side has gone down below freezing on several nights. When was the last time either of your snake rooms were exposed to 27 degrees?

>>>>>Then you say, they have choices from 55F to 85F, who the frog droppings ever said thats a proper temp range, That sir, SUCKS and if thats all they had in nature, THEY WOULD CEASE TO EXSIST.
>>>>>Try giving a range of 55F to 100F(small hotspot) You see, that is indeed the range most colubrids pick from. Of course its an average, as they will indeed choose both higher and lower.

Alright I have asked this question MANY times and every time you have ignored it. I would LOVE to keep my kings year round in enclosures with a gradient of 35-110 degrees but I can't think of a realistic way to do it. So I will ask one more time...and if you answer nothing else, please just tell me...

HOW DO YOU KEEP YOUR KINGS SO THAT THEY ALWAYS HAVE THIS HUGE GRADIENT THAT YOU FAULT THE REST OF US FOR NOT HAVING?

A 30 degree range is as good as I can get...and I dare say its better than most of the people on here. Before I ever tried to breed snakes I kept them as pets. I had several kings in four foot long fishtanks that were in my basement
(no windows) and the tanks stayed the EXACT same temps/humidity/substrate...everything... all year long. If I had to guess I would say that the range was 70-100F year round. Yet each winter I had some snakes refuse food all winter long. And because the temps were too warm, they lost weight so now I keep them lower.

So this range of 70-100 was good enough to "suport living" all year long but then in winter it was not anymore? Hmmmm You think that maybe their needs change in winter?

>>>>So, I have a room with a number of snakes happily feeding like pigs, and I have several species of turtles laying eggs and I have monitors, laying eggs like pez despencers, RIGHT THE HECK NOW. and its mid January. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm I guess I don't get it, but indeed, I do get it, as I am recieving eggs NOW. hahahahahahahahahahahaha. Oh yea, these turtles are suppose to hibernate too.

And I think that is pretty cool. I have a cornsnake that is ovulating now and pythons that are copulating as I type....But we are talking about kings here.

>>>>If I want them inactive, I simply give them conditions to become inactive, if I want them to be active, I support that, if I want them to breed, then I support that.

What happened to letting them decide? lol

>>>>Its not about HIBERNATION or brumation. THOSE ARE SIMPLY BEHAVIORS TO WAIT OUT CONDITIONS THAT DO NOT SUPPORT LIVING. Which is a reptilian advantage.

I disagree. I'm sorry but I do. I think that when a species spends hundreds of thousands of years adapting to a certain environment (one that gets colder in winter) that their body and their metabolism develope needs based on that environment. Everything that my kings do points me towards that conclusion, and I hope you respect me for trying to listen to them before listening to you.

And I am not trying to start a fight but I DO take this seriously. I have a lot to learn from everyone on this forum, and I have a room full of captive animals whos well being depends on me. Hopefully you will keep trying to prove me wrong.

Cheers

Why does he always back down and disappear after he starts the debate? Am I the only one seeing this? Good points Zack!

>> You can see this, about a week before the string of pearls. It is fairly easy to notice.

About how far up from the vent do you palpate for the "string of pearls?" Just to get better bearings.

In your other post you mention that you kept your Kings together. I just started this this year with my pyro pair.
Besides the noticable weight gain by the female, is there any other ways to tell if they've mated?

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Ace

You can feel the follicles somewhere around the last 1/3 of the body depending a little bit on species and how many ovum are present. Just by looking at the female you should be able to notice a slightly bulkier area.

One thing I have found with people who have never palpated a snake is that they feel like they are going to hurt them and don't push/squeeze/palpate hard enough. These are animals that live by cramming themselves into rock crevices. I gaurantee that if you left you cage open a 1/4 inch she would sqeeze right out and the eggs would be just fine. It only takes a little pressure. Once you feel it you will wonder how you ever missed it.

Unfortunately there is now way to tell for sure if your snakes have mated (without catching them in the act) until a little later down the road. More over you don't know if the clutch was successfully fertilized until they are laid. I don't mean to scare you, I have had MANY successful clutches from pairs that I never saw copulating.

cheers, and NICE snakes

Thanks for the info Zach! I've heard some say that they can tell how many follicles the female is carrying by simply palpating,
but I've never even been able to find the "sweet spot". I guess I'm in the company of those of not palpating hard enough.

As far as "scaring me"......LOL.....I do have a little experience with breeding, just my first year having a pair
together full time, so I was looking for some definite indicators of if they bred or not.

Thanks again!!!

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Ace

Good info there Zach. And well put. I like the "squeeze into a rock crevice" statement.
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

Bluerosy...who shamelessly takes every opportunity he can to post a picture of his Peabino.