Reptile & Amphibian Forums

The pet store I frequent on the south end of the Grand Rapids area (golfdiva might know of V.I. Pets on S. Division in the Cutlerville area) says to used dechlorinated (aged) water with aquatic turtles. They say that when the tank is low, adding water fresh from the tap will cause huge fluctuations in bacteria and algal growth, and it is best to used aged water to prevent these fluctuations.

You faolks on the box turtle web forum mostly seem to use aged water too.

But in Jim Harding's book Michigan Turtles and Lizards he says tap is fine, no mention of aging/dechlorinating the water. In the research papers I have read of aquatic turtles, they usually say they use straight (unaged) tap water. And at John Ball Zoo, the the aquatic turtles get fresh tap water (with chlorine) every day.

I suppose it depends on how often one changes the water. In the research papers I mention, I think the authors usually said that water is changed twice per week. In JBZ, the wood and spotted turtles' water gets changed every day. So, in both situations, not enough time is allowed to build up bacteria or algae it would seem, hence, no need to worry about fluctuations.

One group of animals at the zoo DOES get aged water - amphibians.

But I really suspect that chlorine is of no harm to box turtles.

Nobody really knows, and that's the issue.

It has been shown that chlorines can combine with organic compounds. These are called organochlorines. Certain organochlorines imitate molecules within the amphibian reproductive system. These are called xenoestrogens. There have been marked reductions in the reproductive success (fecundity) of amphibians when exposed to organochlorines. The organochlorines basically get in the way of the estrogenic compounds and inhibit fertility. Although organochlorines typically come from artificial substances, there is no guarantee that they will not form when a large amount of chlorine is present. It is also still unclear as to whether organochlorines are damaging to turtles (or other animals for that matter).

Chlorine by itself can be toxic to amphibians, but it would have to be in much higher quantities than tap water. Perhaps steady, small doses over time could cause issues.

The term tap water may apply to well or municipal water. Well water is unchlorinated, while all municipal water must be chlorinated by law.

The addition of chlorinated water to a partially filled tank can result in the formation of another highly potent molecule...chloramine. Nitrogenous waste accumulates within aquariums. This nitrogenous waste exist in several forms. Basically, one of the forms combines with chlorine ions to form the chloramine. I wouldn't say that a fluctuation in bacteria level is dangerous when "topping off" a system with chlorinated water, I would say that chloramine is most definitely the danger.

Most keepers prefer to age just in case. When aging is not practical, as it is often not with me, I use a simple and very inexpensive dechlorinator. It contains sodium. The sodium combines with the chlorine and becomes salt (NACL). Small quantities of salt are beneficial to many aquarium-bound organisms. Salt will help build the slime layer of most fish species, which is why that is written on the label of many of these products.

A very experienced turtle keeper and breeder friend of mine uses rain water captured in large plastic rain barrels. The rainwater is very pure, and is slightly acidic. Slightly acidic water is good for most species of turtles.

Yikes, long post. Hope this helps. Gotta run.

Yes, I know that typical "city" water usually has chlorine whereas water from a well usually does not. But the way Jim's book was written, I'm sure he knew that some of the readers have chlorinated water. Also, in the papers I read, I think they gave indication that the water they used for their turtle study subjects was not from a well.... if I remember correctly they used terms such as "municipal water supply".

I did ask Jim about this yesterday too, and he wrote back at at least mentioned that it certainly doesn't hurt to age the water....

Oh, Jim also wrote this:

Some zoo herp people think that chlorinated water can lead to the carapace spot-bleaching problem so often seen in captive turtles. Doesn't seem to harm them, but is unsightly.

I have a friend that swears chlorinated water causes "shell pitting(some say pithing)" by raising the pH above what most turtles prefer.

It is like most things. There are a lot of theories as to why it MAY be harmful, but there are also a lot of people who haven't had any negative experiences with it. You can go overboard and buy an expensive reverse osmosis water purifier, you can not take any precautions and use municipal water, or you can take a few reasonable steps by just letting it sit for a day and/or adding a few drops of the water conditioner.

I'm glad you brought it up.

I too have read that "if you can drink the water, it is fine for turtles".

There is another reason amphibians don't get tap water. Tap water is also aerated (even tap water from a well). That puts too much oxygen in the water. Too much oxygen will kill an amphibian quickly. Sadly, I found this out by experience!
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0.1.0 ornate box turtle
1.0.0 eastern box turtle
1.0.0 Yellow belly slider
0.1.0 Red belly cooter
0.1.0 Australian shepard
1.11.0 chickens
1.0.0 Dutch(rabbit)
3.2.0 children (do I still count the married ones?)
1.0.0 husband

Long term can't be beneficial. They have prehistoric organ systems and it takes longer for them to heal and get toxins out of their systems.
Chlorine is toxic and kills microorganisms and flora important to all living things.

As someone who is allergic to most chemicals and Chlorine is a big one I have studied the bad effects of chemicals in public systems and what people don't know will hurt them. Our whole house has a filter system and it is amazing when tested the chlorine and lead and trace chemicals in the water trapped in the filter after a month. The summer is much worse then the colder months.

Trap rain water or use the water from you air conditioning condensation line its distilled basically.

There is, unfortunately, no simple answer to this question. The chlorine/chloramine in municipal water supplies has beneficial properties that may outweigh their "toxic" properties as far as turtle keeping goes. Here's an excerpt from the Natural Resources Defense Council's website on the topic of bottled vs. tap water:

"NRDC conducted a four-year review of the bottled water industry and the safety standards that govern it, including a comparison of national bottled water rules with national tap water rules, and independent testing of over 1,000 bottles of water. Their conclusion is that there is no assurance that just because water comes out of a bottle it is any cleaner or safer than water from the tap. And in fact, an estimated 25 percent or more of bottled water is really just tap water in a bottle -- sometimes further treated, sometimes not. And since your local tap water is required to be tested, by law, and those results must be publicly available, there is a greater likelihood that you can verify the safety of your tap water, while you can not verify the compliance of any bottled water. If you want the safest, cleanest, best tasting water; EHSO's recommendation is install a good water filter on your tap! (We like the PUR series)."

Chlorine dissipates very quickly, chloramine a little less so. If you have box turtles that tend to poop in their water bowls, the bactericidal properties of the chlorine/chloramine will help to reduce the risk of infections, and will probably outweigh any theoretical negative effects. I say theoretical, because I've been drinking chlorinated water for 56 years and using it exclusively for box turtles and other turtles for 50 years without ever seeing any evidence of deleterious effects, on myself or the turtles. Chlorine and chloramine in high concentrations could be lethal, for humans and turtles. Tap water doesn't contain either in high concentrations. The basic idea is, put enough in to kill harmful microorganisms, but not enough to kill the macroorganisms using the water for drinking and bathing.

The same health-and-environment conscious people who promote bottled water should put their heads together and figure out how the environment should handle the billions of plastic bottles that become garbage and eat up petroleum and other energy resources in the process.

I've been using tap water for my aquatic turtles for almost 14 years now. Haven't seen any problems with them because of it.
I also bathe my box turtles in tap water.

I did discover that RO water doesn't work well for amphibians I think because too much is filtered out of it.
My frog was fine on tap water with anti-chlor added. Then we bought an RO system so I put him on that. He began to have odd problems with bloating when he was on RO. I put him back on tap water with anti-chlor added, his problem cleared up. He's been fine for the last 2-3 years.
He's 10 years old now.
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PHRatz

As far as aquatic turtles go, if you are using some type of biological filtration (as you really should to maintain a better quality of water) you would want to use de-chlorinated tap water just as you would if you were maintaining an aquarium with fish. The reason is not because of the harm the chlorinated water itself would have on the turtles, but rather the harm that chlorinated water would have on the benificial bacteria used for biological filtration and the problem with that is that when the nitrogen cycling bateria numbers are taken out of balance the process of getting back into balance produces a spike in dissolved ammonia followed by a spike in nitrite. Ammonia and nitrite are very toxic chemicals and those spikes of ammonia and nitrite levels what would be of concern to the health of the aquatic turtle. When the different bacterias are in balance as they would be with a properly cycled aquarium the various bacteria will almost instantly and continuously turn the ammonia from wastes(turtle or fish turds) into the end product of the nitrogen cycle which is the much less toxic nitrate. With de-chlorinated water changes you keep the levels of nitrate from building up with out damaging the balance of the various bacteria involved in the nitrogen cycle. If you do 100% water changes and periodically dissinfect the entire tank and contents then using chlorinated tap water would be OK, however be aware that between water changes the poop in the water remains ammonia which is not as "clean" as water that is filtered with a biological filter. With box turtles not spending near as much time in the water and the water dish is changed frequently, it is debatable the benifits of chlorinated water as stated in previous post. Even so the water dish should be dissinfected with 10% bleach followed by good triple water rinse, because harmful bacteria and fungus will grow in water dish even using chlorinated water, because after a short period the chlorine in gone and after of being walked in, pooped in, slobbered in, stuff grows.
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1.0 pastel ball python
0.1 mojave ball python
0.1 normal ball python
0.2 3-toed box turtles
2.3 eastern box turtles
0.0.5 3-striped mud turtle
1.0 northern diamondback terrapin
2.1 tiger salamander
1.1 red-sided garter
1.0 anerythristic red-sided garter
1.1 Iowa snow plains garter
1.1 Het butter stripe cornsnake
0.1 anerythristic motley cornsnake

> If you do 100% water changes and periodically dissinfect the entire tank and contents then using chlorinated tap water would be OK, however be aware that between water changes the poop in the water remains ammonia which is not as "clean" as water that is filtered with a biological filter. With box turtles not spending near as much time in the water and the water dish is changed frequently, it is debatable the benifits of chlorinated water as stated in previous post. Even so the water dish should be dissinfected with 10% bleach followed by good triple water rinse, because harmful bacteria and fungus will grow in water dish even using chlorinated water, because after a short period the chlorine in gone and after of being walked in, pooped in, slobbered in, stuff grows.

Exactly stuff grows.
I use canister filters for my aquatics, but then I do 100% water changes and disinfection with bleach on a regular basis. When I have feeder fish in with the turtles I do use an anti-chlor but otherwise I don't. I have found that if I don't tear down and scrub those tanks at least twice a month I'll find fungus growing in them. I don't worry about good bacteria because I clean to often to be concerned about it.
I used to tear them down & scrub once a week, but when I got better tanks for them with better filters I found that I could do it once every two weeks.
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PHRatz

Yes PHRatz if you do your 100% water changes frequently and don't have overcrowded tanks you are fine. The problem is when excuses to not do water changes arise. While the running of the canister filter without nitrogen cycling bacteria will physically remove the turds from the water it won't remove the toxic gases dissolved in the water as a result of the breakdown of those turds stuck in the filter, an albiet turtles have a much higher tolerance of ammonia and nitrite than fish do, you might want to just do a simple ammonia and nitrite test of your tank water right before your usual scheduled water change just to see where you really are with the quality of that water.
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1.0 pastel ball python
0.1 mojave ball python
0.1 normal ball python
0.2 3-toed box turtles
2.3 eastern box turtles
0.0.5 3-striped mud turtle
1.0 northern diamondback terrapin
2.1 tiger salamander
1.1 red-sided garter
1.0 anerythristic red-sided garter
1.1 Iowa snow plains garter
1.1 Het butter stripe cornsnake
0.1 anerythristic motley cornsnake

>> you might want to just do a simple ammonia and nitrite test of your tank water right before your usual scheduled water change just to see where you really are with the quality of that water.

You know you have me curious now so I think I'll take that advice & test it just to see.
Can't hurt to find out!
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PHRatz

PHRatz, sorry, I don't mean to sound like a "know it all", but I did breed tropical fish on a semi-professional level for 10 years and I am a biochemist/molecular biologist, so I do know a little bit about water chemistry, I am just trying to be helpful.
There usually isn't only one right way to do anything, but sometimes there is a best way, and in my oppinion using natures biological (bacteria) filter will maintain a more constant water quality, however this is still not a substitute for regular water changes, regular water changes must still be done to remove the build up of end products and other organics just like nature does when it rains. I still do 75% water changes weekly (religously on friday evening or Saturday morning) with my aquariums even with undergravel filters.
Jeff
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1.0 pastel ball python
0.1 mojave ball python
0.1 normal ball python
0.2 3-toed box turtles
2.3 eastern box turtles
0.0.5 3-striped mud turtle
1.0 northern diamondback terrapin
2.1 tiger salamander
1.1 red-sided garter
1.0 anerythristic red-sided garter
1.1 Iowa snow plains garter
1.1 Het butter stripe cornsnake
0.1 anerythristic motley cornsnake

>>PHRatz, sorry, I don't mean to sound like a "know it all", but I did breed tropical fish on a semi-professional level for 10 years and I am a biochemist/molecular biologist, so I do know a little bit about water chemistry, I am just trying to be helpful.

And that's exactly the way I took all of this.. you are being helpful.
It's time to change my water this week so I do plan to get it tested first. Ijust hope I can.. this last week has been crazy for me. I haven't gotten anything done that I planned to do.
I would like to do this & I think if I take some of the water to Pet's Mart they'll do the tests for me?? I'll look into that.

You really got me curious & I think it can't hurt to do it.
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PHRatz

The water here seems to have a high chlorine content to it, so I try to age the water before using on the turtles.

I have used tap water for adult, hatchling box turtles and all my snakes and have never had any problems.