Reptile & Amphibian Forums

i came home from work an hour or so ago, and noticed that my redfoot had been limping. he uses his front arms normally, but does a kind of shuffle with the rear legs.

i've seen him do this on rare occasions before, but never for very long, and i always attributed it to him not getting good footing (on linoleum in the kitchen or whatever).

but he's been doing it nonstop for an hour or so -- i gave him a soak in case he was maybe constipated/impacted, but no poop. he''s on the carpet now and still doing it. i picked him up and held his back legs, and he seemed to pull them from me with his usual (surprising!) strength.

if he keeps it up i suppose i'll have to see if the vet is open on mlk monday.

but in the meanwhile, does anyone here have any ideas or similar experiences?

thank in advance...

A lack of certain aminoacids that aren't found in plants / fruits but only in animal protein has been associated with neurological problems in redfoots and the typical dragging of the hind legs.
Are you feeding your redfoot any animal protein?
Despite the fact that many keepers feed Mazuri to their tortoises, this consists of plant protein only, and does not supply these essential aminoacids.

While there are no scientific studies on how much animal protein redfoots do take in in the wild, the Tortoisetrust recommends about 0.3 g of low-fat (chicken based) rehydrated (soaked) cat food kibble per 100 g of tortoise once a week.

Another memeber of this group had the same problem with a newly acquired redfoot a few years back and brought her back to health with adjusting her diet this way.

This of course is just a likely cause I can think of, as abcesses or inflammation in the joints might manifest with these symptoms as well. But the fact that the hind legs are affected and that both of them are affected at the same time point more towards the systemic aminoacid lack, as it typically does affect the hind legs only.
Hope this helps,

Gaby

I probably didn't state that clearly,- the 0.3 g of cat food per 100 g of tortoise refer to the dry weight of the kibble before soaking it.
As a ball park: the kibble I use weighs about 0.13 g per piece!

well, i've always given him small bits of meat here and there (always cooked, usually a bit or sandwich meat or whatever i might be eating). i knew that wild redfoots ate some degree of meat in the form of carrion, but i was afraid to give him very much because of the problems that too much animal protein can cause (shell deformation etc.); perhaps, as a result, i have been selling him short.

his daily diet is a serving of spring salad mix for greens; every other day or so i add fruit such as strawberry, kiwi, cantaloupe, or blueberry, and every third say he gets vitamins and calcium sprinkled on it (rep-cal brand for both, as that it what his breeder used).

next time i am at the grocery store i will look at cat foods and try integrating this into his routine.

thanks VERY much for your advice -- if he is still shuffling around when the weekend is over, i will call my vet on monday and schedule an appointment

As Ed pointed out a visit with an experienced herp vet is certainly the best choice. I only gave my input to maybe ease your mind a bit over the weekend, while you can't get professional help, and because the symptoms sounded typical.

Obviously you won't be able to fix a nutrition deficiency over the weekend, but from what I remember the goup member I mentioned earlier was successful within about 3 - 4 months.

All the best,
Gaby

nm

This is usually associated with a nutritional imbalance. Another reason why I push the Mazuri diet. It is formulated to cover ALL the nutritional needs of a tortoise. This includes essential amino acids.

While animal protein is suggested as a supplement, I've always been bothered with the lack of address to fats. I don't think tortoises are built to address fats and animal type oils. If you prefer to go that route I'd suggest pinkies (whole units) or lean bird (chicken or turkey) and a good supplement(I still use and recommend Centurm for all my herps I use vitamins on).

I seem to remember you like to let the tortoise roam free. If this is the case, you really should leave it in an enclosure this time of year where you can provide a good stable environment including good heat and a humid retreat. The entire environment does not have to be hot or humid but the tortoise should be given a decent choice (80 to 95F on the heat and a humid retreat such as a closed box with spagnum moss, bed a beast, vermiculite, potting soil(no pearlite or addatives) or some similar substrate. The remaining substrate does not have to be moist or humid or anything special.

Bottom line... a vet check up is your best course of action in addition to the above just to be safe.
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

so you think that i would be better off giving him just regular meat in lieu of something like cat food? i hate to sound squeamish, but i don't think i could give him pinkies unless there were no other alternatives.

i let him roam around free quite a bit, but at night and in the mornings he is always in his enclosure. when he's out, he goes to the same place after he's crawled around a bit. it's in the sun (via the window), and i keep a heat lamp there as well.

perhaps i should try keeping him contained more often, but since he expects to be let out so often, he ends up spending his day trying to climb out!

THANK you for your response -- as i previously mentioned, i'll be in touch with my vet...

I've always been against feeding dog or cat foods because oils and fats are added. Mammals do need it. I don't see herpiverous dealing with it very well. While most if not all tortoises do forage on carrion it is a minor part of there diet. Even then it is probably very lean if you consider what they have available to them. Again, you, as well as many keepers are guessing what they 'need' and how to provide it. by the time you see a result the damage is done and the correction is another guess.

I see nothing wrong with letting them loose but in the winter time they have less control and temperatures are notoriously low at floor level.
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

I agree with you that the low fat content in the type of animal protein fed is important.
The low-fat chicken based cat food I use is the 'Royal Feline Light 37' diet. It contains 8% fat and is thus very similar to the cooked chicken you recommend, which contains about 6% fat (with skin removed of course), and is a bit easier to use for those of us who can't quite get themselves to feeding pinkies.

Gaby

P.S.: Just had a chance to read your article on Egyptians! While I most likely will never have the opportunity to keep them, they are, besides Chacos, the species that would be on top of my 'dream-list'. So I very much enjoyed reading about your experience with these species!

Thank you very much. I'm glad you enjoyed the article.
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

well, i took him to the vet today, and the initial diagnosis is that he is not getting enough calcium in his diet -- the culprit being the prepackaged spring mix that does not contain enough of the "right" greens.

he got a calcium injection and i'm suppose to focus on giving him better greens like mustard, turnip, and beet greens.

if this doesn't help him, then x-rays are the next step.

thanks again for the responses... i'm hoping that he will be better soon.

also, at the vet they had a very sweet 50 year old redfoot that belongs to one of the doctors -- we let him and junior meet!

Great that you got a vet appointment so quickly!
While it is true that the spring mix greens don't have a good calciumhosphorus ratio, and beet and mustard greens have higher calcium content, they are also rich in anti-nutrients and thus shouldn't make up a big part of a redfoot's diet either. They contain high levels of oxalic acid, which binds calcium and thus makes it unavailable. Beet greens also contain high levels of phytic acid, which binds minerals as well, and turnip greens contain goitrogens, which when fed in excess can cause thyroid enlargement.
This of course is only to say that putting your redfoot on a beet - mustard - turnip only diet might have its drawbacks too.
You might want to add dandelion, escarole and chicory, which have both, a good calciumhosphorus ratio and a low content of anti-nutrients.
Variety is probably best.

Did your vet give you any explanation as to why he suspects calcium deficiency in your tortoise?
Hope he'll be better soon,

Gaby

n/p

they gave me a list of various greens with good calcium content -- dandelion greens were up there, too. i'm at work now but i'll list them later when i have it handy.

he suspected calcium deficiency because of the leg-dragging and the spring mix. of course, i don't know, but i am willing to try... i suppose that if it IS a calcium problem, then he should be a bit better in a couple of days when the shot kicks in...

rear leg dragging is a common symptom of calcium deficiency in green iguanas - a contributing factor to hind leg paralysis in tortoises is B vitamin deficiency - B vitamins are usually found in animal sources

Maybe not enough sunlight is the problem? I've read that it is important in aiding to metabolize calcium.

well, he has a uva/uvb lamp in his enclosure, and when he's not in there he's often by a window. he's not under sunlight 100%, but it was my understanding that, as forest tortoises, redfoots didn't need constant sunlight anyway.

if i'm wrong, somebody, please correct me...

tortoises are creatures of the sun and will bask in natural sunlight when they have the opportunity - it is extremely beneficial so long as they have the ability to retreat when desired
sunlight (ultraviolet) is filtered by glass so while tortoises may like the warmth in sunny spot by window they derive no other health benefit
some are more secretive in habit than others but in my experience redfoots love to sun themselves

just an update for those who had replied:

almost a week after he got the shot, junior has been walking more normally, and the beneficial results have "stuck." i'm sticking with the darker greens, and i've moved his sunlamp from his enclosure to the place where he spends most of his time (a corner of my living room, where he also has a heat lamp), since i've learned that he doesn't benefit from sunshine via the window.

since this seemed to be a calcium issue, i'm glad that i seem to have caught it early. i feel bad about it, but i'm trying to at least learn from my mistakes...

I did not mean to imply that there was absolutely no benefit to sitting in a warm sunny spot by the window only that there was no UV light benefit - warming by a window can be helpful from a physiological perspective, for instance as an aid to digestion, and perhaps even psychological as well - just watch out for drafts. By the way, this probably applies to people too.

oh yes, i totally agree. the warmth is still good, and, well, if he likes to sit there, isn't that good in itself?