Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello everyone. I recently was given this little beauty by a neighbor that found it hiding in a pile of mulch he was moving. This occured near Gainsville, Florida. At first I thought it to be a dark colored yellow rat snake hatchling. But after doing a great deal of comparison, I'm just not sure. I have a couple of yellows, one of which I caught when it was not much bigger than this unidentified snake.
I have seen pictures of black rat snake hatchlings that are similar, but not close enough to say for certain that it is a black rat snake.
I am leaning toward the theory that it may be a yellow x black rat interbreed.
In any case, if anyone is familiar with possible locality specific rat snakes in the above mentioned region, please let me know what you think. Any guesses at this point will be considered.
Here's my little new girl...





Compare to the yellow rat snake I caught last summer, Marion County, Florida....


As you can see in the yellow rat snake, the striping along the dorsal saddles is already evident. Not so in my unknown rat. Also the first portion of the dorsal pattern just behind the head is intact, whereas it is not on the yellow.
I'm still scratching my head!!!
Thanks in advance!

If anyone can verify this, I now believe that this may be a Gulf Hammock rat snake.

Doesn't look like a Gulf Hammock Gary Rat Snake. It may be a natural Gray / Yellow intergrade. The reason I think it is a mix because of the color of your snakes eyes. The photo shows some red pigment around the edges. A Gray Rat's eye color is close to its backgroung color. In many cases it is a silver gray.

The first photo is of a young Yellow Rat.
Photo two is of a young Gulf Hammock Gray Rat.
Photo three is of a young classic colored Gray Rat.

greenish rat,or as the rednecks here in sc call em,'chicken snakes',lol
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0.1 cb spotted turtle (parker)
0.0.6 wc baby stinkpots
0.0.1 cb peninsula cooter (gizmo)
0.0.1 wc yellow belly slider (snaps)
1.0 cb albino corn(rusty)
1.0 cb albino lucy texas rat(frost)(pink eyes,all white)
0.0.2 wc halloween crabs
0.2 irritating cats (sassy & miley)
2.0 cb children (sidney,12 & kaelan,4)
0.1 wc wife (danae,age withheld due to fears for personal safety)

I also tend to think that it's probably a natural intergrade of Yellow x Gray. As stated in previous post, the irises have some yellow/orange tint(typical in Yellow Rat) that is not seen in Blacks, or Grays. Also, I can just barely see some hints of coloration from Yellow influence in it too. Other bold "H" shaped blotches as typical of the Gray Rat, and prominant side blotching as well.

One thing to keep in mind though, it is virtually impossible to say with certainty though, that it does not, or cannot have influence from all three to some degree. Gainsville seems to be an area where all three subspecies(Yellow, Gray, Black) have been known to overlap. Please note the legend on this range map, and you can get a good idea for yourself.

You could also see the snake develop some signs of longitudinal striping, as many do not change until they are a little older as well.

Cool snake whatever the case!

~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Kojak69,
Elaphefan and DMong are correct in that you probably have an integrade, and it will yellow up with age, but never turn into a brilliant yellow.
The blotches will fade allot, but probably never go away completely.
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Gainesville is interesting for Rat Snakes because:
• From town and 20 miles east, stripes dominate blotches in the adults but the yellow gets very washed out (really ugly).
• 10-20 miles south, (Micanopy, McIntosh, and really to Ocala (south of Ocala they start really yellowing up nicely)) yellow gets stronger, but still not brilliant.
• 10 miles west they are still yellow, but by 30 miles west (Chiefland), they are clearly Gulf Hammocks with strong blotches and stripes; very white/gray base with a hint of yellow. By Manatee Springs they can be classic Gulf Hammocks.
• Go north (Brooker) and the grey starts mixing with the yellow, but stripes dominate with faint blotches. North of there, grey and blotches really start taking over.
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This is a good reason to always ask a breeder to show you the adults, before you buy a Rat Snake hatchling. Breeders would serve themselves better by showing the Sire and the Dame, when they advertise, and many do.
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What side of town, generally, did this animal come from?
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Regards, Bill McGighan

I'm not certain exactly where she came from, but I can find out. She was in a pile of mulch, so there is the possibility that she was a "stowaway" from wherever the mulch originated.
I definitley agree with you when it comes to seeing the parents of any given offspring that you are considering purchasing. But as for her, she is my "diamond in the rough", so to speak.
Any idea what the offspring might look like if I bred her to a nice yellow (Marion County wild caught)? Will I continue to get snakes that demonstrate a mix of the two parent's coloration, or will I get clear cut yellows and greys (or blacks, depending on what she is actually mixed with)?

“I'm not certain exactly where she came from, but I can find out. She was in a pile of mulch, so there is the possibility that she was a "stowaway" from wherever the mulch originated. “
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Yeah boy, It could have come from anywhere. That makes it more exciting if you keep her, to see how she turns out!
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“But as for her, she is my "diamond in the rough", so to speak. “
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How you came to have this animal can make it a special one, years from now.
I have some in my collection that you would not be impressed with at all, but the individuals are special to me because of the circumstances where they were found.
Ex:s
A yellow that I found under the cowling of my boat motor.
A Gray that I rescued from the traffic of oncoming 18 wheelers.
Etc. etc……………
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”Any idea what the offspring might look like if I bred her to a nice yellow (Marion County wild caught)? Will I continue to get snakes that demonstrate a mix of the two parent's coloration, or will I get clear cut yellows and greys (or blacks, depending on what she is actually mixed with)?”
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An Alachua County animal and a Marion County animal should produce offspring somewhere in between with some variance; one or two may look like the Mom and one or two the Dad.
It has been my experience that the darker blotches seem to pass on more easily so the combo may be have blotches as dark as the Gainesville animal. Many north Marion County animals retain faint blotches till very old.
Only way to be sure is to try. Keep us posted as she gets older.
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Regards, Bill McGighan

If you bred it with a good yellow example(Yellow Rat), you of course would be increasing the percentage of "quadrivittata" in the lineage, therefore also increasing the tendency for more yellow coloration. It's hard to say exactly what their offspring will look like, especially since yours is still VERY young, and not displaying adult pattern, or coloration yet. But it is a safe bet not to expect BLAZING YELLOW BANANAS from the F1-pairing(first generation) you are contemplating.

It could be surprising to see how this snake could change it's appearance as it ages. I would document some "age progression" shots at certain intervals to see just how the snake "evolves" while going through it's ontogenic change.

~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Thanks for all the feedback everyone. I will take progression pictures as she grows. I tend to do that with all my snakes, if for no other reason to be able to look back and say "Wow, look at how this one has grown!" or "Can you believe this grew into this?"
I find that this can also be a useful resource when trying to figure out what a hatchling MAY turn out like.
I'll post some more pics as she develops.
***Update****
I was able to get her to eat 2 mouse pinkies. I had to invoke a biting response, but once she got the pinky lodged in her mouth, I think she realized it was edible and swallowed it. This worked for both pinkies. She shortly after went into opaque/blue, so I tend to believe she may be very, very young indeed.
Thanks again everyone.

Chris