Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Ok, so I recognize a name or two from the Ball forum, but my first time on here....so a little background; I have been doing rescues for many years. Mainly BPs, but some others (corns, kings, etc.) I have never had one of the "big boys". Well, as it happens, I have been asked to take in a 6 ft burm. If I don't, he will be put down. I simply cannot have that. I have searched, but can't find anyone else to take him, so it looks like I am going to be learning to care for this fella through immersion!
The snake is awesome. He is easy to handle, and quite healthy. I was asked to visit with his owner to show him how to handle it. My response was simply, "couldn't tell ya! love to see it though!" So off I went to visit. Turned out the owner was just scared of him, and brutus the burm seemed to know it. After he tried 3 times to take it out of the box he had it in, (which is way too small)he gave up. Each time he tried to grab the burm, it would flinch its body away, and its head towards the handler, and in turn the handler would jerk his hand away. I decided that it was my turn, so after about ten minutes (wanted brutus to have a chance to calm down) I reached in, took a firm but gentle hold, and pulled him out. (wow thats a heavy snake!!) What a sweetheart!!!!
Needless to say, a few months down the road and here I am, trying to figure out how to make the small spare bedroom into a burm room! I am doing my research, but info on burm care isn't as easy to find as it is for some other snakes. I guess what I am getting at is; can you guys tell me what I'm in for???? hahaha!
Really guess I'm just introducing myself. If I do end up with Brutus, I suspect I will be on here bugging you guys quite a bit for the next while!
Let the adventure begin!
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James.....
"Curiosity killed the cat, but satisfaction brought the beast back."

oh how i love the burms.

Especially at that size- they're super easy!

when i get home in a while- i'll give some more info.

They really aren't so bad. He's probably starving- most of the ones we get that are nasty mean- slam down 3-4 rabbits and have a totally different attitude- like a whole new animal!

They are lots of fun...

gotta go- i'll be back though!

Beth
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The rescue site: www.freewebs.com/okreptilerescue

Aha, I see that you've been bit, so to speak.

What I mean is you've been bit by the Burmese Python passion. I've kept many different types of snakes, both venomous & non-venomous, but very few satisfy me like burms do.

I've kept & rescued many reptiles and thoroughly enjoy passing the flame, sharing my passion & experience(s) with others. Here's what I would if I were you:

It's because of keepers like the one you mentioned that there's a need for rescue services. Personally, if the keepr still has the snake and is interested in learning I would volunteer my time to go & teach them in their home, with their snake.

Granted, we can't take the time to teach everyone everything there is to know, but in this particular case it sounds like the keeper's fear and lack of knowing how to pick up a snake is causing the burmese to interperet the actions as aggression towards it. You seemed to have proved that by being able to reach in & get it without incident.

So, you take the time to show them how slow & steady, deliberate movement, with confidence, is needed to pick up ANY snake. I also suggest teaching them to hook-train it.

A hook for hook-training a burmese python, or any other handleable snake, doesn't have to be strong enough to lift the snake, just merely something used over & over, besides a hand, to signal to the snake that it's going to be handled and not fed or harassed. I've got instructions on how to make one for less than 5 bucks if you're interested.

All-in-all, my point is to try to teach others what they don't know about proper handling & basic care when/if we can. Hopefully they'll pick up on it & pass it along to someone else. If it works, then you will have saved at least one from having to be rescued, which I feel should be our ultimate goal.

One red flag I see in your case is that the cage it's in now is too small, and the burm's only 6ft. Will the keeper be able to house it properly when it gets even bigger? Maybe, maybe not. It needs to be discussed.

As for me being able to tell you what you may be in for, honestly, with burmese pythons the only thing I view as different from what you said you've got experience with is - size. Size of the snake & enlcosure. There's a reason they're called "Gentle giants," as you've already experienced.

Bug us! All you want. Hahaha!! Most of us are here to serve as well as learn.

Welcome aboard!

Have a good one!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Well, I must admit, having that animal in my arms did get me pretty hooked. I would, however prefer to educate this owner. unfortunately, he has no room for it now, let alone in the future. Do males stay somewhat smaller than females, like with BPs? Also, can their enclosure be too big? I have a small spare bedroom, that I could convert to a nice big home for him.

Thanks for the info. Nice to know that if this does happen, I have experienced people to help me out! (didn't know Beth had a burm, so I already know someone too!!!)
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James.....
"Curiosity killed the cat, but satisfaction brought the beast back."

> > > "Do males stay somewhat smaller than females, like with BPs?

Yeah.

> > > "Also, can their enclosure be too big? I have a small spare bedroom, that I could convert to a nice big home for him."

Yes.

I realize you said "...that I can convert... but the main thing about using a spare bedroom is it would take major modifications. It would be impossible to maintain proper humidity levels with walls made of drywall, plus, the humidity would deteriorate the drywall and you'd most likely end up with mold/fungus all throughout your house.

Not only that, but it would also be tough to maintain an acceptable ambient temperature in large areas without costing an arm and a leg in power bills.

It can be done, you just have to think "really big enclosure." Water proof walls, ceiling, floor, large heat source (forced-air heating that we use in our homes dry out the air), etc...

Later!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

to help with heating they make under flooring heaters(think hug under the tank heater) for use in houses look at homedepot.com under flooring itll say under floor heating, 10'x30" was 199.99 you could hook that up to a thermostat set it at the low ambient temp for burms im not sure exactly but i think 78-80 would be good and that 10x30" is only 300 watts, then get a couple big radiant heat panels. thats just an idea from me hope it helps you out.
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1.1 jungle carpets
1.1 sumatran bloods
1.1 het albino rtb

You know....

I think it's easier to put the money in a big cage to go inside the spare room. The idea of converting of room is cool, but it's a lot of work and $$$$.

That's what I was thinkin' but for some reason, while reading your post, I got the hair-brained idea of maybe using two or three of the room's walls and adding a top (ceiling), say... 3 - 4ft high and build the other one or two walls. Of course the existing walls used would need to covered with FRP or something and that will deface them. They'll need repairing if you were to move or need the room for an unexpected child

Now you see why I normally try not to think aloud. And also, me using the words "normally" and "think" in the same sentence is an oxymoron. Hahaha!!!

I'm with Laura, if she'll let me associate myself with her. Hahaha!

Later Tater!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

You can associate with me anytime! But what would my husband say?

"You can associate with me anytime! But what would my husband say?"

Oh gosh! (Gulp) That's not quite what I meant. Once your husband met me any worries about me hangin' out with you would be eased. Ha! Ha!

Your husband's the least of my worries, it's my wife that terrifies me. In fact, below is a scene that took place here at home after she read your reply.

You can always tell your husband that I'm........, well, better not. Then he'd be worried 'bout me flirtin' with him. What does he look like? Hahahaha!!!

Thanks for the grin!

Take care!
Mike
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

i have all kinds of stuff-
burms, retics, red tails- colombian and peruvian, ball pythons, corns, blue garters, i've got a doll of an emerald (my trophy!), .... then the lizards- beardies, iguanas, monitors, geckos, then frogs and toads...
hubby wants a green conda' and a surinam RTB so i think those are our next kids....
then we have dogs, birds, ferrets, cats,.... everything- AND- my house DOES NOT smell like animals!! (yay- me!)-- and those are just our PERSONAL pets- we've got i think around 13 rescue animals right now that are ready for adoption-- and i've got 4 more at a foster home that aren't ready for adoption.... i've done rescue for years and its truely my passion- its what got me started back in high school when i worked at the pet store- i'd take all kinds of things home that were left on the steps or brought in...

lol...

anyway...

I love the idea of the bedroom- but i think he's too small for it now.

Our cages for our big kids are 7 ft. long, 4 ft. wide and tall-- we have 4 of these.
another cage is 8 long, 2 wide and 2 tall-- works well for those 7-9 footers....
then we've got a few other random sizes...
The only big girl that hasn't really fit in the 7 ft long cages is a HUGE burm- she's about 16 foot and a little smaller than a basket ball -- never missed a meal! eats f/t and we can throw the rabbits up in the air and she'll catch them. She doesn't try to wrap them up, she just digs in! once she's working on those- we put the other rabbits in litter box pans and set in her cage, an hour later- theres no more bunnies.

anyway-- that big girl has a brand new cage thats 7 long 7 wide and 4 tall.... its nice! has shelves that actually support her...

they are awsome creatures- here's an example:
This is an adoption/education event we went to last year- 2 hour drive, warm/hot day about 80 degrees- out there for 6-7 hours straight 2 hour drive home- and was STILL in a good mood...
pic:

Beth
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The rescue site: www.freewebs.com/okreptilerescue

a bigger pic:

Shivvah- 14 ft

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The rescue site: www.freewebs.com/okreptilerescue

Beth, I was wondering why you feed some many rabbits in one sitting? We have a 15ft 100 pound female that gets one 7-8 pound rabbit every 10-14 days.

Just curious,
Randy
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Randy and Michelle
Art In Scales
(719) 439-4199
info@artinscales.com

hey- it is a personal choice that makes the summer events go SOOO much easier.

We have events nearly every weekend from early spring until the first weekend in September (if its warm enough).

During the summer i don't feed NEARLY as much- we can't take these huge snakes that people are scared of to begin with- out in the public and put them on people... and have them crap a rabbit on someones kid...

did that once- newbie then- wont do it again.

After an event, if i don't have another one for at least 2 weekends- we'll feed 2 rabbits...

they usually only get 2-3 meals from april to september- so while they still have great attitudes- they have lost a few pounds.... so we pack it on all winter so we don't have to worry about it.

these girls would eat until they popped- but can go several months and not even notice...

if we didn't do so many education/adoption events- we wouldn't feed like we do.

They get an incredible amount of exercise being out and moving around 6-9 hours nearly EVERY weekend- so they do loose some weight- and it comes off faster than it goes back on too.

They aren't obese by any means. The pics i posted above were of our smaller (shorter) girl- at the last event which was the 2nd weekend of september-- you can see she is starting to get thinner- but not skinny...
She started the spring/summer bigger than that... she was fat at the first event...

its hard to explain- but does that answer your question.

if we didn't have them out so much all summer- they wouldnt get fed like they do all winter-- if they were normal, just pet burms that came out once a month or whatever- they wouldn't need as much food...

Beth
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The rescue site: www.freewebs.com/okreptilerescue

I was just wondering because I've seen in other posts that you always seem to feed several rabbits in one sitting and was wondering if you couldn't get big rabbits or if you were going for a record burm. HaHa

Talk to you later,
Randy
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Randy and Michelle
Art In Scales
(719) 439-4199
info@artinscales.com

lol- record burm... i probably have one thats close- but thats not what i'm after.

A lot of times, i can't get rabbits period. This winter they've been few and far between- and about 10$ for a 5-7 pounder.
during the summer- i can find them all day long for 1-2$ so i get as many as will fit in the deep freeze to last me all winter- but this year, our freezer went out and we lost 40 some rabbits- so we've been shelling out 10$ a pop....

its wierd with the feeding- but i've had a few too many people get poo'd on for me to feed all summer- which means i can't feed them like 'normal' pet burms....

Beth
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The rescue site: www.freewebs.com/okreptilerescue

Beth,
Please don't take any offense to this, I'd just like to share some of my concerns about your feeding methods. I'm in no way looking for a debate, argument, or anything like that, I don't have the time. Besides, I'd much rather be friends & get along with as many people as I can. If I tick you off you're just gonna tune me out, and I'll just be wasting my time expressing my concerns for the snakes' well-being.

So here I go, in my smoothest, friendliest, most sincere tone of voice, and with a warm & friendly smile on my face:

Is there any way that you can alternate the snakes per event so they can be fed & sit out an appearance and catch the next one, giving them time to defecate?

Beth, the feeding regimen you use is hard on snakes, it puts their bodies thru more stress and dangerous points than meets the eye. I could be wrong but I think that not all fat stores that a snake builds up is eventually consumed, utilized. I think some fat stores remain & continue to grow, even though we may not see visible signs, and these can eventually lead to premature death in the form of organ failure.

Going from fat to skinny (or near fat to skinny) on a yearly basis, as by the way you're feeding them, is a real health risk. It would be for any animal or human.

Your snakes are experiencing hunger during the summer months, and the SPCA would have a field day with that. (Ha! No, I'm not affiliated with 'em, nor do I want to be.) Considering the heat (= metabolism) and the exercise they get, they need to be fed.

Putting myself in your place, as much as I can imagine, I can see where you're coming from about concerns of defecating snakes. I'm wondering if there's a happy medium somewhere, you know, give a little - take a little, as far as their feeding goes.

Not to be sarcastic but I can't help but feel that the snakes' needs are being set aside for human satisfaction. But maybe there's more to the picture than I can see or think of at the moment.

You rescued those creatures from people who were not, or could not, meet their needs. I'm just asking you to please meet their needs a little beter than you are. None of us are perfect, we all make mistakes or sometimes place our desires above our animals' needs. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't encourage each other to strive harder. I know sometimes I could use some encouraging and constructive criticism.

At least think about it. That's all that I'm asking.

Have a good day!
Mike
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

I am always open to constructive advice- emphasis on the constructive part.

This summer will be our 3rd year with tons of events.
our first year we had 3 events- very spread out- and they ate like 'normal' ...

year 2-- we had 5 events-- that was the poop year. i fed them like 'normal'- good size rabbit, maybe 2 once a month-- poo poo poo-- every event there was poo. It was horrible. Can you imagine being terrified of an animal... only to have it crap a rabbit on your kid?

Year 3-- we had 11 events! We tried the new feeding thing- pack it on in the winter- lay off all summer. She ate 2-3 times during the summer- certainly not 'normal'.

Year 4-- we have 14 (14!!!!!) events booked as of now-- and there are always those last minute events that we get calls for. we'll probably land around 18 by the seasons end.

now, Year one- we had 1 big burm -- but we didn't have any events- no big deal.

Year 2 -- same one burm- more events- MORE poo...

Year 3 -- We'd lost our big guy, he was quite old (somewhere around 13 when we got him- in POOR health, another 1 1/2 years to get him healthy and then 3 years healthy), and went down hill very fast over the winter-- several thousand at the vet did nothing for him, he was just old... We also had gotten another big girl- which is who i posted pics of a few posts above-- The feeding method worked well-- we would get home late sat/sun and feed mon/tues- when we had a weekend off- and she'd poo around wed/thurs before the next event. Just looked through my records- She ate 4 times over the summer. one meal was quite small- only 1 5lb rabbit- the others were 2-7lb, 3-4/5 lb, and 2- 7/8 lb. rabbits.
There were 2 events she didn't attend b/c of shedding cycles.

Year 4- We now have ANOTHER big girl. She has not been to an event yet, but we have constructed large crowds of willing reptile keepers, willing friends, and occasionally family and had her out for several hours, lifted up and down, moved around, redirected multiple times, lots of tail touching, blah blah blah- seems to do great. We have probably 4 weeks of super warm weather before our first big event, and she'll be out 2-3 of those weekends to 'test' her some more.

The biggest problem we've had is with the # of snakes we have. before we've only had one really 'useable' snake. This year we have 2 big girls and I will alternate--

There is NO possible way to keep eyeballs on 4 snakes- 2 of them being huge. these are 3 people snakes and saftey is #1.

We have multiples of the other species we take to the events- we've got 4 red tails that rotate, we've got 3 smaller snakes (1 corn, 1 rosy, and 1 kenyan), and 4 balls that rotate. Occasionally we'll switch one of those out for the retic or iguana.

we're still in the 'figure it out' part. We've done rescue for what seems like an eternity- and recently started doing events. The events are very important and directly impact the way the rescue runs through the rest of the year. 2 years in a row, we've had a vet donate 500$ worth of service to us- his clinic is 2 hours away, but we're there regularly to visit family, no biggie to drag along an animal that needs checked out. And a lot of our animals come from the city, i call up the vet while i'm picking up the animal- and drop by. We've had multiple boxes of rodentpro/similar feeders donated. snake lovers- that have rodents thier snakes have outgrown- see us, run home, get the box, and bring it back. We get lots of caging supplies, heat pads, uv lights, etc... I've also had 2 people at one event fill the gas tanks in the 2 cars and 2 suv's we drove 4 hours away to attend the event- totally awsome!

I TOTALLY understand what you're saying about the natural feeding methods being altered to 'suit' our human needs- and it is a great point! however, those animals being out there and being seen- directly impacts them to. Not saying they wouldn't eat or have vet service without donations- because that obvously isn't true-- my rough total on out of pocket expenses for the rescue for last year alone totals well over 8,000$ (thats more than my car cost!)That doesn't include the gas or car wear and tear, tolls, or road food for us.

We get many, many burms- and the vast majority are just not 'up' to the challenge of being exposed to over 1,000 people in a day- thats a lot for me to take, much less them. we've had a few that could have been good canditates- but at 4 foot... aren't quite the attention getters we need.

Now, to put you at ease a little- We will change the feeding methods this year- i'm very-open to anything that will make our lives easier. We have 2 girls that can rotate, and we're hoping to have more. A good friend of mine that does similar events- more for schools/b-days and things- has a 10 ft yellow head that he's offered to sell to us- we just need to decide if we want him or not.

anyway-- don't know if i got all you points covered-- i know this is a rediculous post and i cut out a lot... so let me know if theres anything else!

Thanks
Beth
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The rescue site: www.freewebs.com/okreptilerescue

Beth,
It's nice to see that you took my concerns/post for what they were, constructive criticism (although I don't like using the word "criticism" with "constructive" because it almost sounds like an oxymoron.).

You did a good job of giving me a better view of your thought process without coming across as defensive. That's not easy to do. It sure is nice to feel that we can discuss things without getting personal & out of hand and I have to admit that you gained quite a bit of respect from me due to the nature of your reply.

I see your point, I think you see mine; we're both considering everything. That's effective discussion. I don't feel a need to say anything more about it.

I also want to thank you for giving everyone a good "behind the scenes" view of animal rescue. A lot of people don't have any idea of the personal & financial sacrfices rescuers have to make, and how much rescuers need & depend on others.

I'm small-time compared to you as I only get a few animals here & there on a persoanl level from people that know we keep all sorts of animals. I tried to go big-time but couldn't find enough people willing to meet for 30 minutes once a month to form a BOD (Board of Directors) for non-profit status.

Thank you for a pleasing & effective discussion!

Hang in there and have a great day!
Mike
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Our intent was not to start any kind of bash-fest, but we agree with Mike.

Think of it this way...

What if you were to "pig-out" all weekend long and just lay around the house, then work all week and just eat a few snacks here and there. Now, if you did this week after week, how do you think you would be feeling come Thursday or Friday?

I know in the wild these animals take what they can get when they can get it, but we are supposed to be giving them the best care we can provide.

I really like the idea that Mike gave in regards to a rotation. I hope that is something that you can incorporate. In addition to the feeding, this could also reduce the amount of stress they are exposed to being around strangers.

I understand by not taking them, you might be missing an opportunity to adopt out the animal that is at home. One option would be to take pictures of the animal(s) that aren't in attendance, that way people could still see pictures of the snake and if they ask why you didn't bring them you could tell them that they were recently fed and didn't want to take a chance of people getting poo'd on. Not only will it get a great laugh, but it shows your dedication to their well-being.

I hope you don't feel like we are ganging up on you, we are just concerned about the well-being of your animals. Ultimately, you have the final choice, we are just making suggestions.

Take care.

Randy and Michelle
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Randy and Michelle
Art In Scales
(719) 439-4199
info@artinscales.com

i posted below and must have missed your post- earlier.
As for leaving some animals behind and risking not getting them adopted.
We don't quite work that way.

The animals we take to the events-- some came to us as rescues- and some were purchased before the rescue.
I have only recently started buying the animals i want- like specific locales, morphs, whatever.

anyway- we don't let any of our animals go to new homes AT the event. we leave with a PILE of applications- usually around 30- most are impulses- 'oooh i want a snake- how cute, throw it away when i'm bored' type things... we look over the apps, look at how much they know about the animal, check vet refrences- and if they can't TELL me the name of any reptile vet- like they havent had a reptile before- but haven't bothered to check around before getting a reptile... this annoys me greatly.

We requre to see the caging, the app. has common sense things on it- the apps for iguanas and larger snakes is 3 pages- if you tell me that Igs eat 'lettuce'-- it goes in the trash- The specific question says- "What items should a balanced Iguana diet consist of?" Q2 is "What are 3 things Iguanas should not eat?" (head 'lettuce', meat, etc...).
Same for snakes- "how big does _____ python/etc get when full grown?" (if you tell me 7-9 foot and its a retic- theres a problem)

you wouldn't believe some of the answers i've had to the questions on my app. I am not a rescue that refuses to adopt to people with kids- thats stupid- HOWEVER- if the cage is in your kids room, or you don't have a cage- forget it!

anywho- i got kicked out of the living room b/c i wouldn't stop talking- and now you guys fell victem to the babbling.

anyway- check my post below and let me know if you have other Q's or comments.

I don't see this as a bash fest- and i have seen the true bash-fests- last time i was involved in a bashfest- i wasn't on kingsnake for 6 months afterwards- There is definatly a different tone to this one- I'm not being treated like a 13 yr old newbie- and i appriciate it.
We are still trying to figure out what we need to do regarding food and poo....
the other post below ("concerns" talks about it- i dont want to duplicate it.

Beth
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The rescue site: www.freewebs.com/okreptilerescue

I'm glad you took it for what it was and not that we were bashing on you. I was very concerned about that.

I didn't realize there was so much to adopting these guys, but I guess you have to be thorough so they don't become a rescue again. It has always amazed me how misinformed the public is about the reptiles.

Good luck,
Randy
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Randy and Michelle
Art In Scales
(719) 439-4199
info@artinscales.com

Males do usually stay smaller than females, but the males still get pretty big. I used to have a 12ft 80pound male, so I guess it's all relative.

If you have a spare bedroom for the snake that's great. I would suggest to either buy or build a cage for him and set it up in the bedroom. A room that is one big cage doesn't work very well. When we bought our house in the early 90's we hade a spare bedroom and decided to make it one big cage for all our bigger snakes(I know, bad husbandry to house multiple snakes together, we didn't know that back then). The room had hardwood floors, so we pulled the baseboards off, laid down plastic and tacked the baseboards back on to hold the plastic and not let the snakes get under it. We put a space heater in that ran of a thermostat and a humidifier. It didn't work too good. The snakes stayed on the floor, so we had to really heat the room up to get the floor area warm. Then there's entering the room. We had to peak our head in to see where all the snakes were before entering and it could be dangerous to walk around because you are in their domain.

Another thought is when you get your second burm (we all know you will, HaHa) you won't have anyplace to put it if you use the whole room for a cage.

Just my thoughts,
Randy
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Randy and Michelle
Art In Scales
(719) 439-4199
info@artinscales.com

"Another thought is when you get your second burm (we all know you will, HaHa) you won't have anyplace to put it if you use the whole room for a cage. "

Now thats a good point!!! I have already experienced the addiction with other reptiles, and I wouldn't be suprised if burms get me too!!!! lol.

Converting the room is within my abilities...I do home renos, would just insulate with an extra layer on the walls, then put up bathroom drywall (moiture proof). Its also pretty easy to build a floating floor, and run floor heating underneath. Over that, lay linolium, and run it about 3 inches up the wall. I already have a floor drain in the room, so I could literally hose down the floor for cleaning.

That all being said, I will reconsider building an enclosure, since the bug will prob hit me soon, and I am running out of reptile space in my house!

Thank you all for your replies! I really do appreciate all the input.
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James.....
"Curiosity killed the cat, but satisfaction brought the beast back."