Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello All,.......I am just curious as to whether anyone has had experience in big money HERP fraud situations..........If you spend $1000+ on a het for a WHATCHAMACALIT Ball python. Wouldn't that be a felony offense if the animal did not prove out?.... I am pretty sure it is!!..... There is a lot more we can do than a slam on a BOI. Even more than being banned from advertising on site such as this one.......I think it would fall under the FBI's internet fraud division. At least when it started on the net...............I wonder how many people would still continue misrepresenting animals if they knew that they could go to the federal pen for a significant amount of time and have a roomate that loves them. It does not matter if they drop off the face of the planet 'so to speak' they still have a name and an address somewhere..... BY the way I did get burned for $1500+ and the person had 5 something warrants out for his arrest......... God Bless, Lee VanHyfte...............................Ps. If I am correct the statute of limitations would be 7 years!So you DO HAVE plenty of time to prove out a questionable HET!!

I think this has been gone over before, but here's my take on it:

1) Make sure the ad is for a 100% het. Buying a 50 or 66% het means that there is only that much of a chance that it is a het - so you could still strike out, and the seller has not misrepresented anything and does not owe you anything for your gamble!

2) Keep meticulous records of the snake, including photographs from the seller before you get the snake and photographs you take immediately after receiving it. This is to show it is indeed the same snake.

3) Try to prove it out with at least one animal that is either 100% het, or is the visual morph.

4) Let the seller know as soon as you suspect that the animal is not actually a het. They may be willing to work out a breeding loan with you to prove it out, and will likely be more willing to cooperate later if it turns out to not be a het.

If you do all of those things, and the animal was sold as 100% het...the seller owes you an explanation and a replacement. If the seller refuses to cooperate, then yeah, I'd agree with taking them to court.
Throughout the whole thing, you the buyer must cover your @$$ and make decisions that make you look good. If the deal looks too good to be true...it probably is! Get everything in writing, take lots of pictures, and always always ALWAYS be the professional grown-up.

All it'll take is one person crying wolf or trying to rip someone else off and this will never be taken seriously in a court again. My personal thought is that this should be a last resort - what judge is really going to send a guy to prison for 7 years over a snake that looks just like any other snake to him?

~jenny
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"Polysyllabism in no way insures that what you're saying is actually worth being heard." - Blake (an e-friend of mine)

"I have never made but one prayer to god, a very short one: "O lord, make my enemies ridiculous." And he granted it." - Voltaire

Personally I think the breeders/sellers on this site should have a rating system like ebay and amazon has. It's not fool proof, but it at least gives people like me who don't know that much about the many breeders/sellers out there a chance.
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1.0 Graziani Pastel Ball Python (Baldwin)
0.1 Spider Ball Python
1.1 Kenyan Sand Boa
1.0 Snow Kenyan Sand Boa (Gaara)
1.0 Blue Garter Snake (Blue)
0.1 Sumatran Blood Python (Medusa)

WOW thats a great idea!!!!

Hi, it seems like a great idea however the ebay and other bid feedbacks do NOT work. Worthless in my opinion. Even when I have been burned bad by sellers and held up my end of the deal 100% they still gave me a negative when I gave them a negative!!!!! 100% flawed and of no value..............I do believe there is a herp registry, or at least there was one. That allowed certain established breeders a certification. This gave piece of mind but we already know who those people are anyway. ie: Peter Kahl, VPI, Bob Clark etc. So it is hard to say what the value is when we do already know who we can trust!......It comes down to HOW you spend your money if you want certainty you will need to pay for it with higher prices from those BIG NAME BREEDERS!! You will never be disappointed though!!!............Lee

Hi Jenny,.........I generally only buy from friends, For one if they will not let me in their herp room I DON'T buy from them.... That is a level of trust!! The good ones are always ashamed of poop in their cages. HEY S#!& happens. Always cracks me up..............I have the good fortune of being near some of the top breeders in the US. So if I want something I just drive up and meet them.....Regarding the fraudulent sellers THEY SHOULD TAKE HEED!! My point was to see what others experiences are LAW wise.................................. I am glad you discussed this as some people get stung and you have given them a good heads up.....................Personally, I buy het pairs then only use the female and either sell or give away the male to someone wanting a pet BP............................Lee

Having just been part of a suit against a company who was selling bogus hets - I'll let you know this - there was a judgment awarded - the guy skipped town - and we'll likely not see anything. Damages were well over $40K - but no criminal charges where brought.
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Tosha
JET Pythons

Damn Tosha, I'm sorry to hear about this .

That IS a downside to all this. Paying a settlement is simple enough to get out of, if you don't mind relocating.

Quig
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Don't interupt me when I'm talkin' to myself

Ah yes...

He is somewhere though.. We will find him.
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www.HeathersHerps.com

-Ohh, what a Lady-

Balls for Life, Baby!

Hi Tasha,.......Out of curiosity did you actually press charges and file a police report?.....That would presumably be a must....There can be both criminal and civil penalties for fraud especially in the amount of money you are talking.... OF COURSE if they are in Jail you do not get paid....BUT it is easier to win a civil trial if the person is found guilty in a criminal trial...................I would think your lawyer can make contentions garnishing wages, selling off their property at state auction as well as IRS refund with holding. Depends a little bit on HOW good your attourney is. The Fact is in todays society you really cannot escape the law very well, IF the law enforcement officers actually chose to do something about it. OH plus if they DO NOT PAY they are in contempt of court and can be JAILED for that until such a time that they can make restoration to you..... Lee

There were a group of us that were taken - it was probably one of the biggest scams in the industry - reports were file - the DA decided not to pursue a criminal case - a judgment was reached and the guy decided to skip town. It is unlikely that he will be found - and like most people that don't want to have their wages garnished will work off the books. If he pops up on radar again then he'll likely be punished for not cooperating with the courts - but that is a slap on the wrists.

The gist is - even with the amount of money involved (and that was just a small group of his customers) criminal charges were not brought and he was basically just told he had to pay everyone back. You look at other "crimes" involving stolen snakes, fraudulent hets, etc. and if you can prove wrong doing legally the criminals get a slap on the wrist. If he were to defrauded us of $40,000 in something real world tangible like computer equipment he probably would have gotten jail time and more.

Se la vie
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Tosha
JET Pythons

so why dont you tell us all who this idiot was so it might be stopped from happening again to someone else.......and speaking of bad business and lying to customers what ever happened to JOE from morph king...

Any of the big name breeders have to make darn sure that their hets are really hets, because their name is everything in this business.

Years ago, I bought 100 female pos hets from Pete Kahl. I didn't have any qualms about their authenticity because I knew that Pete was an honest guy.

When I bred all the females, the percentage of albinos that I got was almost perfect for the 50% and 66% chance hets.

If you think someone might be shady, don't buy the hets.

i spent thousands on a 100% het from one of the top 3. many many many babies later, 3 clutches, paired with another of their 100% hets - NOTHING VISUAL.

that breeder did not try to screw me, and it was i'm sure unintentional. but that breeder also refuses to consider that an error occurred at theier facility, or sperm retention from a previous non-het male. the breeder offered, after way too many lost years and an extremely lost market price, to replace the female with a baby visual morph.

good intent there, but untold tens of thousands in lost revenue style good intent, definately not.

i think you need to be really sure its "fraud", and dont think buying from the big guys offers 100% security - yes, it offers more security, but not 100%.

Did you breed het to het or visual to het. This past year I had two clutches laid on the same day and I cut them open on the same day. They were both het females bred to visual males, no visuals out of 15 eggs. These were both proven hets. I had 15 eggs total. The odds can really go against you.
Mike

its a tough one. at a certain point (when unproven), you are either the most unlucky person in the world, or the snake is not as told. people make mistakes, and breeders too often dismiss sperm retention, the wrong male being put in. its not like these facilities do not have the occasional intern, young help, whatever. there are many ways a wrong pairing can happen in a large facility.

she is breeding again this year - the 4th time. again to a 100% het.

due to odds, though ridiculous odds in my mind at this point, i have not made a fuss to the breeder, though they are aware of my situation, and cite also stats and odds.

but if she does not hit this year, i will need to make a decision about how to handle this situation.

Could it not be that your 100% het male is not a het? That could be the reason that you are not seeing any visuals. Just something else to think about.

either way both the hets are from the same breeder / facility. which is convenient to my cause - if after this fourth breeding i still have a cause.

Hi, There is a compounding issue. Even though animals appear to be Homozyous for the same form, they may be different (carried on a different alleles). This is the case in the Non-compatible ghost lines. ie: Bell line OG vs. desert ghost and some others.............................In the case of the Caramel Albino there are 2 different non-compatible lines. If you have a het from one line and a Homo from yet another. You may be producing 100% hets for line A and 50% het for line B. The whole Caramel issue scares me because you could work with a Pair of "unrelated" animals and end up with DH 100% het carmel A and 100% het caramel B. NOTE: Used A and B only to give frame of reference not sure the non-compatible line names. One is Obviously VPI the other I cannot remember..........Lee van Hyfte

Yes, that missing on 15 of 15 from homozygous X het makes me think something is amiss. That's 1 in 32,768 bad luck. Could happen but I'd also look hard at other possibilities.

How many babies in the three clutches of het x het? Those odds are longer so missing on 15 of 15 of those would only be about 1 in 75 bad luck. I guess you don't have a homozygous male you could borrow for this year's test?

With possibilities like sperm retention and even parthenogenesis a paternity test would be cheap insurance for both the buyer and the seller of hets. I'm surprised we don't have one available yet.