Reptile & Amphibian Forums

These are from the facility of a VERY HIGHLY RECOMMENDED breeder. Not only were the chondros kept this way, but LOTS of emeralds as well. This was in mid August and the outside temp was in the mid to upper 90s. I don't recall any humidity within the room and all cages were in a dry state. The room was very comfortable temp and humidity wise.

Pregnant emerald.....one of several that looked like they were going to burst.




Anyone recognize this guy?

Silly how this guy doesn't listen to the experts on how to keep his arboreals. Doesn't he know light bulbs are bad?

B

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www.brandonosbornereptiles.com

I'm not suggesting that new keepers use setups like this. I'm only arguing against the common myth that they CAN'T be kept in this manner. In my experience, commercial plastic cages aren't the best for chondros. But then again, I had the most success with melamine cages and 40 watt lightbulbs. lol. Do what works.

B
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www.brandonosbornereptiles.com

YAY for Rico!
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1.0 cb pastel bp
1.0 cb high contrast albino bp(Russo Line)
0.1 cb normal bp
0.1 cb Brazilian Rainbow Boa

1.0 cb Hogg Island Boa
0.1 cb Cyclops Mt./jaya GTP
1.0 cb aru GTP
0.1 cb bosc's monitor
2.0 wc scottish terrirers

Rico is the man... I wish I had the ability to have my cages like that...

But I still don't like heat lights...
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Shiloh Hawkesworth
kansas
(Midwest Serpents)

Hey Brandon,

I wondered if you were ever going to share those photo's. What happened to the one of you with the "green thing"? That's what I really wanted to see....
Signal Herpetoculture

a little reluctant at first but........I DID IT!

Thanks again for having us down/up?!
Brandon Osborne
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www.brandonosbornereptiles.com

Brandon, That's what I'm talking about! It's nice to see I'm not the only one that can hold one of those. Now we just need to post that pic on the etb forum and watch everyone bicker about how much blood was spilled in that session. NONE!

Thanks for posting that Brandon. Take care and good luck this season.

Rico
Signal Herpetoculture

LOL... I don't think I would have reached in...

I had to get an emerald out of a cage about 2 years ago and it was not a pleasant experience... I ruined a shirt and pants... I looked like both my hands went through a screen door all the way up to my elbows... And my chest (wearing a polo shirt and under shirt) looked like I had been a victim to bad acupuncture...

I keep waiting to see a book from Rico on the shelf... "The Snake Whisperer"

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Shiloh Hawkesworth
kansas
(Midwest Serpents)

Thanks for sharing the pics!!

I am not going to argue that what he is doing might be wrong because it looks like its working great, however few things to note.

A.)Part of the country, I know breeders in FL who use plastic screen 9 months out of the year and supplemental heating when needed. And thus depending on where you live will greatly change your methods.
Glass cages many years ago was the only thing available and it worked but they are not energy efficient, this wont matter to the warmer states as much as it does to the northern states.

B.)Lighting I still use “some” incandescent lighting BUT Heat panels are the way to go, cheaper overall costs and they do the job better for lots less. After the big move all my cages will be refitted with Heat Panels, the overall costs saved per year is significant.

C.)Airflow depending on the room this may or may not be an issue.

D.)Reptile room location and it looks like that room is located at the top of the house (an attic maybe?), the warmest part of the house! Heating doesn’t look like an issue for that Reptile Room unlike some who house reptiles in the basement.

What it boils down to is costs and efficiency, I have no idea what part of the country you are in but here in PA the nights get cold and in the winter temps drop to single digits. You can’t get away with the setup above without another heat source, IE heating the room with an oil heater and that isn’t cheap.
So yes glass aquariums and incandescent heating may work it won’t work everywhere, even in warmer clients your still tossing money out the window because your using more electricity then needed.
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Jason A.
"Long time Herper, first year Breeder `07."
My 2008 Care Sheet & The BRB Stats. Username: brb@kingsnake.com

Heat panels: IMHO, are way overrated. Just a way for someone to separate you from your money.

Light bulbs: IMHO, are just as good. I actually had more success with a simple melamine cage with incandescent light bulbs for heat.

The location of this setup is in the Tennessee mountains. I'm sure it's cold there as it is where I'm at only a few hours away. We're seeing temps in the teens with low single digit windchills. Follow the rest of the pack. They're always right.

Rico, it's time to change your ways. lol.

B
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www.brandonosbornereptiles.com

>>Heat panels: IMHO, are way overrated. Just a way for someone to separate you from your money.
The heat panels I use are $26 a piece... But I agree most are WAY WAY WAY over priced...

Eventually Rico is going to realize that what he is doing is wrong, and by wrong I mean producing 200 Chondro's a year... That is defiantly wrong... Come on Rico jump into the 20th century sometime... lol
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Shiloh Hawkesworth
kansas
(Midwest Serpents)

Hey Brandon,

I guess I will need to change my way's in order to have better success but I'm not so sure I could handle any more success. LOL

He does have a good point though. The facility was built as a herp space and so has its own HVAC and environmental controls. We don't have to heat the entire house to the animals comfort. Still the room does drop to high 60's at night during cycling periods...and yes your right, it get's cold here.

I agree with you that heat panels are very overrated. I use incandescent lights because they are inexpensive, easily determined to be working and I don't need thermostats to control their heat output. The cost to outfit 100 enclosures with heat panels and thermostats would be outrageous. Heat panels are useful for a lot of people though.

It basically boils down to knowing your situation along with the requirements of the animals you are keeping. Then using the equipment that works best for your situation. No matter what species you are keeping.

Happy Herping!
Signal Herpetoculture

Rico thanks for the input. That was exactly my point in the beginning. I NEVER stated that a "beginner" should use glass aquariums. I only stated that they CAN BE USED and with great success. People read into things before they actually read them. I think panties are in a wad. lol.

Brandon Osborne
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www.brandonosbornereptiles.com

Rico, how do you control the temps without a thermostat? If I let a heat lamp even go during the summer in my snake room, they would fry. My thermostats pretty much shut off the heat in the summer as I open the windows and let the south carolina summer temps and humidity do the rest. Or is that what you do too? The winters are too cold here for that. I shut the window in the winter, open the floor vent for heat to come in and the thermostats keep the rest of the temperatures stable.
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4.5~Cornsnakes
2.3.1~Green tree python
2.1~ATB
Dogs, cats, horses....
www.franclycac.com

Hey Meg,

The whole facility is set up to house reptiles with its own thermostat controling the HVAC. The bulbs are sized to provide an optimal basking temp considering the average temperature of the room. All the bulbs are run on timers for about 10hrs a day. In the summer I too open the windows and let mother nature provide the heat and humidity. I hope that helps. Take care.

Rico Walder
Signal Herpetoculture
Signal Herpetoculture

>>Heat panels: IMHO, are way overrated. Just a way for someone to separate you from your money.
>>
>>Light bulbs: IMHO, are just as good. I actually had more success with a simple melamine cage with incandescent light bulbs for heat.
>>
>>The location of this setup is in the Tennessee mountains. I'm sure it's cold there as it is where I'm at only a few hours away. We're seeing temps in the teens with low single digit windchills. Follow the rest of the pack. They're always right.
>>
>>Rico, it's time to change your ways. lol.
>>
>>B
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>>www.brandonosbornereptiles.com

Follow the pack, if it leads me to saving money sure I will follow so I can buy more of these awesome animals.
I wasn't trying to bash or put down your practices, its very obvious they work for you BUT imagine how much money alone your spending to heat your animals..

Brandon what problems do you have with Heat Panels?

Most incandescent lights last around 2,000 Hrs.
Lets say each 75 watt bulb costs $5.00
A 75 watt incandescent lamp; run 2000 hours; at a rate of .10/kWh = $15.00, so that $5 bulb costs you $15 dollars to run it.
I know I can easily go through two bulbs a year if not more brining that total cost to $40 a year to run TWO 75 watt indecent lights. You do that math over ten years with the amount of animals you keep and thats at a fixed rate, MONEY out the WINDOW!!

A heat panel that is using a good proportional thermostat would easily cut that bill in half.

Is the up front costs significant yes, will you make your money back in 5 years, heck you'll double it.

Again not bashing your ways but you can save money in the long run..
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Jason A.
"Long time Herper, first year Breeder `07."
My 2008 Care Sheet & The BRB Stats. Username: brb@kingsnake.com

Hey Jason,

I see you're point on energy consumption but in my case your math is a bit off. For me this is what my set up costs vs. heat panel & thermostat.

Clamp light = 9.00
40 watt bulb = .30 2per year .60
Total startup cost = under $10.00 Annual equipment cost under $1.00

50 watt heat panel (Bean Farm)$68.00 (what panels are you using Shiloh?)
Herpstat ND (my prefered t-stat)$135.00 (also from Bean Farm)
Startup cost = $203.00 not including shipping.

Energy costs vary throughout the country so it isn't easy to compare. Regardless a 40wt bulb isn't going to use a Kw each hour.

For me to convert the entire collection would cost over $20K. Of course if I had an endless supply of funds I'd replace everything with fully loaded Habitat Systems cages and maybe even heat panels.

One thing that I don't like about heat pannels is the fact that most non fossorial reptiles seek out basking sites by light intensity i.e. brightest light = good basking area. Certainly reptiles will learn to use heat panels but to me it just doesn't seem as natural. Just my .02 cents. Still the best thing to do is what works best for your situation.
Signal Herpetoculture

>>50 watt heat panel (Bean Farm)$68.00 (what panels are you using Shiloh?)

I use the Big Apple Desert Ray Heat Panels... With a piece if insulation behind it... I thought you read my article... joking

>>One thing that I don't like about heat pannels is the fact that most non fossorial reptiles seek out basking sites by light intensity i.e. brightest light = good basking area. Certainly reptiles will learn to use heat panels but to me it just doesn't seem as natural.

I cant argue with that... I have florescent lights in my cages, but the light = heat logic is dead on... I tried heat lights in the beginning, but it kept making my cages bone dry... I think the fact that you have a nice water bowl in the cages and the screen to allow air flow probably helps in your case... Plus you have the room set up for reptiles... Do you have your setup on a mister? (my cages were also not at tall as yours)
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Shiloh Hawkesworth
kansas
(Midwest Serpents)

Yes Shiloh, I did read the article but I though others might benefit from the information. Some of the folks reading these forums may not even know what a "magazine" is. LOL

Rico
Signal Herpetoculture

I don't have anything against heat panels. If you choose to use them, that's your choice. My only complaint with panels is price. Everything about supplies in this hobby involves taking more of your money than need be. I just can't justify paying $60-80 for a small panel when I can get the same thing for, like Rico said, $0.30.

I will have to agree with Rico on the costs. I think your figures are a bit off. I don't use anything larger than a 40w bulb and most often use a 25w bulb. In the summer I use a 7.5w bulb and have done so for many years. This works for me and has worked very well. In my newest cages, I've only used an 18" strip light for heat and it has also worked very well.

I was told several years ago from some "experts" that you can't hatch chondros in a Hovabator. Well, I did.....two years in a row. Of course I had a thermostat added to it, but it was a cheap industrial thermostat that cost me $30. I hatched 3 clutches and all pipped on day 49.

My point is, not everything you read in a book is carved in stone.....but everyone seems to think so. There are lots of ways to do things and lots of ways not to do things. Saying you can't keep these animals in "glass aquariums" is simply close-minded, IMHO. Do what's best for your animals and I'll do what's best for mine.....just don't tell me I'm wrong when I've proven it to be successful. Think outside of the box......or circle.

Peace and chicken grease.
Brandon Osborne
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www.brandonosbornereptiles.com

>>I don't have anything against heat panels. If you choose to use them, that's your choice. My only complaint with panels is price. Everything about supplies in this hobby involves taking more of your money than need be. I just can't justify paying $60-80 for a small panel when I can get the same thing for, like Rico said, $0.30.
>>
>>I will have to agree with Rico on the costs. I think your figures are a bit off. I don't use anything larger than a 40w bulb and most often use a 25w bulb. In the summer I use a 7.5w bulb and have done so for many years. This works for me and has worked very well. In my newest cages, I've only used an 18" strip light for heat and it has also worked very well.
>>
>>I was told several years ago from some "experts" that you can't hatch chondros in a Hovabator. Well, I did.....two years in a row. Of course I had a thermostat added to it, but it was a cheap industrial thermostat that cost me $30. I hatched 3 clutches and all pipped on day 49.
>>
>>My point is, not everything you read in a book is carved in stone.....but everyone seems to think so. There are lots of ways to do things and lots of ways not to do things. Saying you can't keep these animals in "glass aquariums" is simply close-minded, IMHO. Do what's best for your animals and I'll do what's best for mine.....just don't tell me I'm wrong when I've proven it to be successful. Think outside of the box......or circle.
>>
>>Peace and chicken grease.
>>Brandon Osborne
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>>www.brandonosbornereptiles.com

My numbers are high even for 75 watts, 40 watts thats not bad. And the price per bulb where do you guys get your bulbs at?

And I agree with the both of you just becuase someone says that you cant or shouldn't doesn't mean that it wont work for you, and that really is the point what works best for your situation.
I couldn't get away with using a 40Watt bulb, in winter we keep the house at 65 and the nights in the lows 60s and a 40Watt bulb doesn't cut it, typically I use 75-100Watts.

I have nothing but respect for you guys and its great that you took time to share some photos..

BTW I would still like to know how much it costs to heat all those animals a year
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Jason A.
"Long time Herper, first year Breeder `07."
My 2008 Care Sheet & The BRB Stats. Username: brb@kingsnake.com

Jason, it's really hard to say how much it costs to heat the animals. My local energy rates have more than DOUBLED in the last 3 years. Before, when I lived in my apartment, my average bill was $60 a month. In my current house, it averages $140-160 and up to $250 during really cold months. It's going to vary from one location to the next. On top of that, my room is free standing and has no supplimental heating/cooling other than a small space heater and a window a/c. I keep the average room temp between 68 and 76 in the winter and 74-80 in the summer. Also, like Rico, I have NEVER used thermostats on cages. I don't see the need for it. Bulbs are virtually foolproof and there is much less risk of fire with them. I can grab a 40w bulb with my hand without risk of burn.

I keep my neos and juvies in the same room as the adults, and I've NEVER had problems when temps get into the mid-upper 60s. Not one single problem. As David Wilson pointed out at the last symposium, temps get down into the 40s in some of these locales. Where do these animals go when it's that cold? The answer is nowhere. They sit in the trees and take it. He accounted for a 3 year study, and stated there were many nights when temps were in the 40s or 50s with a steady rain, finding adults as well as neos and juvies. He did tracking on lots of animals over the study.

People say chondros are intolerant of temp fluctuations and I find that to be false. I tend to think they are intolerant to the amount of stress they indure. Can temps stress a chondro? Yes, probably so. I've seen my temps dip to 60 degrees before and not have any problems. What I have noticed is, my chondros do not like high temps. When I say high, I mean above 88 degrees. If you notice an animal is ALWAYS on the cool side, the temps are too high. Again, this is just my experience and observation with my animals.

I think experience is sometimes the best method of learning. Sometimes you make mistakes, and sometimes you make great discoveries. In my case simple is best, and high tech does not suite my application nor does it suite my pocketbook. Please don't take that comment as being that I don't care about my animals. They have THE BEST vet care I could ever imagine. If I ever have a problem with any of them, it's not even a question whether they get a trip to the vet. My vet is awesome and actually cares about what he's doing.

Sorry for the long rant and off topic crap. lol.

Brandon Osborne
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www.brandonosbornereptiles.com

Amen!

Hey Jason,

It certainly sounds like you'd have a hard time with my type set up. For your situation a thermostat and heat panel would be the way to go. My bulbs come from Wal Mart, 4 pack of 40wt bulbs $1.20. I know Wally World has its own problems but that's one of the few things I buy from them.

At some point a collection's size would dictate a financial advantage to heating a room vs. heating each enclosure. Just don't know what size that would be as I'm way beyond that point. LOL

This has been a fun discussion. Take care.

Rico Walder
Signal Herpetoculture
Signal Herpetoculture

At some point a collection's size would dictate a financial advantage to heating a room vs. heating each enclosure.

Rico,

This is probably going to not be viewed by most people, but the size of a collection would have to be remarkably small in order to justify heating the room vs. heating an enclosure.

Let's say if you did not have HVAC for your snake room and had to use 60 watt bulbs instead of 40 watt bulbs. Your amperage draw per light bulb would then be 0.5 amps (amps = watts divided by voltage).

I have a 17' x 9' snake room in the back of my garage in Rapid City, South Dakota. Yes, it gets cold here. I have 1500 watts of electric heat running on 220 voltage, meaning my rooms only requires 6.8 amps of power when it's running.

So, 6.8 divided by 0.5 = 13.6

In other words, once I go over 13 cages it's cheaper for me to heat the room than to heat the cages. Actually, the number is probably quite a bit lower. More on that later.

Now, I am running my heaters on 220 volts which helps. If I used 110 volt space heaters (which I have) then the number of cages would double to 27. Again, that number is probably high.

But even that is misleading because neither the space heaters nor the radiant electric heaters have to run all the time. On the coldest days when I'm in and out of the snake room all day the heaters still cycle on and off. And keep in mind my snake room opens to my garage which is quite cold so I'm letting all that heat out. Even then the heaters still cycle on and off.

Point is that even with 110 volt space heaters one probably would need a very small collection to justify room heat over cage heat. My room is 17 x 9 and in a very cold garage and I probably see cost savings at about ten cages.

In the typical house in the typical small room the numbers are probably even lower.

BTW, if you're scratching your head trying to figure out who the heck I am, I'm the Chris Harper who is friends with Tom Weaver (Denver Zoo) Bill Hughes and Terry Phillip.

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Currently keeping a small collection of various Gonyosoma. Both G. janseni and G. oxycephala.

asked why such skinny perches? wouldnt you want a bigger diamiter and round instead of skinny and square? now dont get me wrong im not sayin you should i only got one condro and dont even know 1/4 abotu them as much as you do lol but i would think a dider round one would be used specialy in that big of GTP and ETB and preggo ones also to add more support

I can't talk for Rico on the size of his perches, but I can say that female was HUGE!....and I mean HUGE!!! I'm only going on memory here, but I think those perches are about an inch or so in diameter. I use perches that range from 1/2-1 3/4" for sub-adults to adults. I've never really give a choice of sizes, but from all of the chondros I've seen in naturalistic setups, they tend to choose smaller perches over large ones. Chondros and emeralds at the St. Louis Zoo seem to prefer VERY small branches on the trees they use. That's another good question to bring up as I have some -2 year olds that are weighing down the perches in their tubs.

Brandon Osborne

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www.brandonosbornereptiles.com

wow thanks for the reply hopefully rico will chime in also i just know with my sorong she is still young but always likes hte medium size so to say perch i have givin her multiple size perches in her growing and she is still young and small but i think i have about the right size right now she is on 3/4 and loves it eont use anything larger or smaller when i put it in there and when she is adult the largest i will go is 1 3/4 i think that will be plenty fine it just didnt look like there was much support for them guys on those perches lol and again he knows 100000 times more then me on condros and has 100000 times more experience lol

Hey Tim,

Good question. I've actually used a wide variety of perch sizes over the years and nearly all the animals seem to choose the smaller diameter perches given equal environmental parameters. The largest perches I use now are about 1" in diameter... the basin's would probably like something a little bigger but they manage. I've also gone away from smooth round perches as I've seen many animals strain to keep from sliding around them. The perches I use now are made from solid hexagonal PVC bar. It has just enough edge that they can grip easily and the solid construction makes them really easy to clean. I hope that helps.

Rico Walder
Signal Herpetoculture
Signal Herpetoculture

i see what you meen about the square as to the smooth round i set up my perch as a ladder type setup from ground to top with multiple perches all inbetween and my girl sits so she is on the perch but leaning on the glass in the back but i think that adds to her security since i have a background on her cage and fake leaves in the front mroe so but the roughed up perches from boaphile seem to work good for my carpet he holds on nice and good lol anywhos i would think that your perches could use a slight size increase not sayin go huge but i think the added support would be good for them specialy the preggo girls lol but whatever works good for you is your opinion now i just need to save up and get a nice emerald from you lol pop out any tame babies yet lol

All of Rico's animals are TOP NOTCH. Any animal you get from him is going to be exceptional. I never really liked emeralds until I saw his collection. My wife even likes them. Maybe some day.

Honestly, for perch size, I think a smaller perch would be easier on them than a bigger one. The larger the diameter, the more energy the animal has to use in order to grip. On a thinner perch they can just drape over and relax. But that's just an idea. I really have no idea. I think they'll take whatever they can get. As long as they're healthy....I know they're not always happy. lol.

Brandon Osborne

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www.brandonosbornereptiles.com

lol i hear ya very nice animal you got there here a older pic of my one and only green tree

this is a outside pic that i brought her perch ladder with for lol 3/4 inch stuff just moved her to this size very recently once she hit this size

and a few random pics

Off the top of my head....... I remember seeing pics of Chondro's in the wild noticing the "perch" they were on was smaller then I would have expected... In reality I'm sure the snake don't care... lol

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Shiloh Hawkesworth
kansas
(Midwest Serpents)

Didn't you see Brandon's pictures at the start of this thread...? LOL

Rico
Signal Herpetoculture

i seen some tame adults or what looked liek tame adults lol my questionw as about babies lol another question for you from what i have seen on ages oif ETB for sale that they change color ALOT faster then GTP why do you think that is?

I recently "dove" in to emeralds and got 2 very nice Northerns from Rico. I swear I keep waiting for this ferocious beast to emerge. Neither one of them has even offered to strike, let alone bite. Heck, at this point I reach in to change their water dish and my hand is against them the whole time. Obviously they are CBB, maybe this whole "nastiness" is much more of an import thing?

My experience is much to limited to guess, but I have been very pleasantly surprised (though still very careful lol)