Reptile & Amphibian Forums

We recently bought 2 8-10 inch cali babies. they were in seperate containers but the man said we could put them together.upon futher reading up it says they will eat other snakes. Is keeping them together safe? they have been together for 3 days with no problems yet.

They will be fine until one gets just slightly bigger than the other, gets hungry, and eats it. Yes, they are cannibalistic and YES they will eventually eat each other!

I saw this happen at my local Petco - they were housing three calkings together, and one morning there were only two! Everyone was in a lot of trouble for "losing" the snake, until it was noticed that one of the other snakes was awfully fat...

~jenny
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"Polysyllabism in no way insures that what you're saying is actually worth being heard." - Blake (an e-friend of mine)

"I have never made but one prayer to god, a very short one: "O lord, make my enemies ridiculous." And he granted it." - Voltaire

This type of concept and education is totally naive. Which means, your comments are based on ignorance, at best and stupidity at worse.

As a pioneer with Cal kings, I first bred them in 1966. And produced many of the morphs that exsist today. I always keep them in pairs and groups, and I found them in groups in nature. This is FACT.

To be cannibalistic, means, they consider eachother as prey. This they DO NOT DO. CONSIDER, if they were cannibalistic, there would be no Cal kings. They simply would eat themselves out of exsistance.

The truth is, they live and work in colonies, as such, they do not feed on their own members. But like anyother carnivore, if starved they indeed will turn on eachother TO EXSIST.

The problem is, non-thinking humans, do not have the brains to understand, when a snake is hungry, really hungry, or straving. Or straving to a point of cannibalism. So many keepers ARE SO BONE HEADED, they strave an animal to the point of cannibalism, then simply state, oh they are cannibals. HOW VERY SAD, Hey?

I fully understand I am being mean, but come on, how mean is it to strave animals until they turn to cannibals. Sir, that is really mean. DON"T STARVE THEM AND THEY WON"T EAT EACHOTHER.

Also, animals do not read books, or watch TV or go to school. So much like primitive humans, they do not consider other tribes or races or populations as their own type. Many primitive peoples call themselves, the people. Every thing else is, the others. The others are simply other animals. So cannibalistic humans ate other tribes, that were only considers, other types of animals. This is very true with snakes.

They do not eat their own tribe, they do eat others, after all, they are only other snakes.

This is easy to test with kings and I have tested it many many times. All you have to do is raise clutches together. If you DO NOT STARVE THEM, they will co-exsist without problem. If you raise two different clutches(at least two) this way, You can then test this. Its not theory, because I have tested it. Once theory is tested, the results render it no longer theory.

Place an individual from one group(clutch) in with the other clutch. In most cases, that individual will be consumed quickly. It does not belong in that group and is considered prey.

This test(if repeated many times) is a test to show relationships. It shows there are bonds created thru proxsimity. They are hatched together, they que in on scent to recognize others. These animals then consider these individuals safe. This occurs with humans by the way.

So, before you go on about Cal kings being cannibals, you may want to educate yourself. The absolute truth is, you can keep them together, with no problems, I have done that for decades upon decades with this type of reptile and many others. But I am aware of two things. One is bonding, and the other is hunger. Hunger will drive any animal to cannibalism.

So, STOP STARVING YOUR ANIMALS TO THE POINT OF CANNIBILISM. hahahahahahahahahahahahhaha its actually not funny.

I apologise for being mean to you, but you deserve to be mean to. Before we keep animals in boxes, we SHOULD KNOW WHEN THEY ARE STARVING. cheers

p.s. snakes do not feed once a month or once a week or every three days, That is stupid human understanding, they actually feed often, like daily, when conditions support that, and then fast for long periods, "WITH" conditions that support that. The problem with stupid humans is, they do not offer or support those conditions, then say, see, those snakes are cannibals or some other such non-sense.

A question Frank..

"Place an individual from one group(clutch) in with the other clutch. In most cases, that individual will be consumed quickly. It does not belong in that group and is considered prey."

If I understand your points correctly your saying that different Cal Kings from two different clutches will be considered prey to one of the said Cal Kings and be consumed quickly..
However if they are from the same clutch they will be fine based on your testing and observation.

How would the poster know for fact that the snakes are clutch mates?

So back to square one, keep them separate..
Few reasons for this,
Quarantine - Who has what, when animals are kept together you wont know and both now need to be treated.
Feeding - animals will fight over food, why create competition for your newly bought pets.
Observation - two animals in two different cages are easier to keep track of, who pooped, which animal might have regurgitated, who shed, who has blood in there stool etc..etc..

As a hobbyist's don't take the risk keep them separated..

As always I enjoy the read Frank..
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Jason A.
"Long time Herper, first year Breeder `07."
My 2008 Care Sheet & The BRB Stats. Username: brb@kingsnake.com

I keep adult cal kings togther all the time and they do not each each other and they are not clutch mates. The only time I have had problems is with neonate clutchmates kept together. But young snakes tend to get hungry easier than adults. The funny thing is even when i keep hungry adults together they still never eat each other.

So what I do is keep the neonates seperate until they start eating fuzzys or hoppers. From that point on they don't eat each other.

Whether right or wrong, that is my experience and I have a lot of kings.
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

Trees don't grow on money either.

I guess I disagree with both you and Frank. I have had adult fat female cal kings put in with males to breed and the female has fed on the male. I disagree that kingsnakes would eat each other out of existance. I think sometimes kings won't eat each other and sometimes they will even if being fat. I have had hatchlings from the same clutch feed on one another even with full stomachs from the egg yoke. I know I haven't been doing this since the 60's but I have been breeding snakes from the late 70's. Just my 2 cents.

If I remember correctly, many of your first cal kings, came from me. At least I remember, you buying a whole bunch of them from me.

And I had no problems keeping them together. To oppose your having some eat each other.

So I said, they do not eat eachother unless starving. You somehow tied starving with skinny. I never said, they have to be skinny. They simply have to be very very hungry. Fat females can indeed by starving.

So I ask, did you feed those females everytime they wanted to eat, or did you feed them when you were ready to feed them? Oh I know the answer.

You do remember how fast my snakes grew and how quickly they reached adulthood and reproduced? That happened because I fed them. But, I never fed them all or when they wanted to eat. Have you?

But I did understand, not to starve them. Particularly a cycling female(they are very needy)

Now consider, I am not saying anything against your methods or your success, But I am saying, you may not understand whats really going on with the snakes.

You also know that I have been working with wild snakes for longer then you have been keeping snakes. Which leads to this. Wild snakes eat as soon as they can and as often as they can. But, if they cannot find food, they have a fix for that. They simply drop their body temps to lower their need for food. That way they can prolong starving. Of course, there can be a time when they simply have to survive and at that time, they indeed with turn to cannibalism.

In our cages, we do not allow them to lower their temps to control their levels of hunger. We keep them in a temp zone where they cannot lower their metabolism. So they have to feed or starve and do so very quickly. Which reminds me, have you ever had a king eat eachother while brumating/hibernating? Why not? because they were cool and did not need to feed. Hmmmmmmmmm

So you really think in nature, its just luck of the draw. Cheers

Frank, I agree on some of your points although it seems to me you weren't keeping them together back then. They seemed to also be overweight. You said they won't eat each other unless they are hungry. I guess some of mine are always hungry no mater how stuffed they are.
On finding lots of them in the same area and under the same cover, we don't know how many were eaten by others before we found them. I think they are oppertunistic feeders.
And on them eating each other into non existance, the male black widow doesn't fair too well when they meet and there surely isn't a shortage of them around. Same with some fish.
On why they are not eating each other in hibernation, that's true although they probably wouldn't eat anything in hibernation. Just my 2 cents.

Would you take a look at my "Could Electronic Devices Affect Feeding" post below and give me your 2 cents?

Most of the replies I got focus on room activity being the stressor, and I agree. But I can't help WONDERING if snakes can perceive either the vibrations or electronic fields from electronic devices with hard drives and microprocessors (ie. computers and video game systems), and if such perception could influence the snakes behavior. I'm thinking of this from a scientific standpoint rather than a "boo-hoo, why won't these snakes eat?" standpoint.
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I'm sure it could. I have heard of snakes being in the same cage for periods of time and as soon as you turn on the light one grabs the other. Don

Well the male black widow breeds the female and then gets eaten. So Don, not a good comparison. Neither is the fact the snakes were fat when you bought them from FR. At least you considered them "fat".

FR for sure posted with particular intent. Anyone notice he makes one or two posts and watches the forum explode HA HA HA. Next thing a year later, everyone is keeping kings together. He makes people think and it won't happen with some boring post.

Foriegn ideas just take a while to get through. FR knows what is rude and what isn't. Do you think hmwalatka ever checked back here? He wanted people to remember his post. I won't remember yours.
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

Trees don't grow on money either.

I never said they were fat when I bought them I said his breeders were overweight (or at least looked like a stuffed sausage). All I'm saying is if some kid buys 2 kingsnakes and keeps them together because of what is said on this forum and one gets eaten are you or Frank going to replace it? Both of you should know better but maybe the egos won't let you.
I also have never heard of an adult cornsnake or other ratsnake eating another one no mater how hungry they were, unlike kings.
I think this post belongs with the one on 18 inch brooksi breeding.

Say what you will Don but I DO keep my Florida king adults together and they NEVER ate each other and I have bred 18" florida kings. That is a fact. Last year I even bred a 20" female and she had 7 good large eggs that all hatched and the snake is fine as well.

i am more concerned about you than the newbies.
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

Trees don't grow on money either.

Black widow males do NOT get eaten IF they pluck the threads correctly. Doing so enables the female to be "soothed" into a trancelike state, allowing the male time to escape. The female WILL eat him if he tarries, but this "rule of behavior" applies. It is all part of the grand scheme of life and death.
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Todd Hughes

Your assuming they do, you have not proof what so ever, are their lots or any records of kings normally consuming their own?(within a colony) What do stomach contains reveal? Its my own experience that you can very commonly find dense numbers of eastern type kings.

An example, on our field study with Willards and leps, the most common prey item is lizards(by alot) then rodents, birds, insects. But we never found a snake or any signs of cannibalism. Yet, in captivity, willards have been known to eat eachother. Got any assumptions here Don? Why do willards eat eachother in captivity and they are NOT snake feeders.

Of course, kings commonly consume other snakes. But the difinition of what that means is very weak. As I mentioned, is other snakes, all or some other species. Or is other snakes, all species, including individuals from the same population, or colony? Again, to be cannibalistic, they must consume members of their OWN KIND. Again as I mentioned, they do not have a book that tells them, who is food and who is a mate.

Most of us field workers NOW understand that these types of snakes live in dense numbers and in close proxsimity to eachother. So tell me, if they normally ate their own type(oppertunistic) Why do they stay near eachother when they can be consumed as any other prey item?

So Yes, I do question your assumptions, and yes, I think you have no idea about wild snakes except from what occurs in boxes.

The actual answer to the start of the thread is. IN CAPTIVITY, under our current conditions, its advisable to not keep kings together, as if neglecked, they will consume one another. That I would not argue. But if your saying kingsnakes naturally each eachother(within a colony) Then your wrong and you have nothing but captive assumptions to base your thoughts on. Cheers

On the proof you have none either unless you have seen everyone of the animals in the wild populations.

Frank, I think they may live in the same area because it is the most optimum place to live. I still think finding snakes together under a board or whatever doesn't mean he or she has not fed on like animals. Finding different snakes under the same board that have not eaten each other may mean they just didn't know the other one was there. This is just my opinion.

Finding snakes together under the same piece of debris may also mean that the snakes are not hungry or are not prepared to fight one of their own kind in order to eat when there is easier food such as lizards and rodents available. I like hamburgers, but I'm not going to eat one when I'm full and I'm certainly not going to kill and slaughter a whole cow when I can drive to McDonalds. See what I mean? Just because the snakes are sometimes found together doesn't mean they don't occasionally consume each other in the wild. I think some of the people posting here are taking this too far and assuming that if a snake will eat something that means it will automatically always attack and devour that certain animal every time it is encountered. I had a speckled king that loved anoles as much as it loved mice, but sometimes he did not feed on them.

The person who started this thread had a simple and valid question, and I feel sorry for him because he could not get a straight answer. He asked if it was okay to keep two juve Calis together. The answer is that they DO sometimes eat each other in captivity, for whatever reason. The owner should be prepared to make his decision based on that fact. What happens in the wild is irrelevant.
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1.1.0 Hondurans Het Amel
1.1.0 Hondurans Anery, Het Hypo
0.1.0 Honduran Hypo
0.2.0 Pueblans
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The person who started this thread had a simple and valid question, and I feel sorry for him because he could not get a straight answer. He asked if it was okay to keep two juve Calis together. The answer is that they DO sometimes eat each other in captivity, for whatever reason. The owner should be prepared to make his decision based on that fact. What happens in the wild is irrelevant.

I think the point was IF they are not starving.

If people fed their snakes enough,like they should, they will not cannibalize. Most people in the hobby DON'T feed their snakes enough and if you do they sling the term "Powerfeeding" around like that was a bad thing.

Lots of misinformation in this hobby.
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

Trees don't grow on money either.

There's a response I can relate to, good one, Rainer!
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Todd Hughes

could you explain how much need to be fed with adults or hatchlings? or just tell me how you do with yours? i'm just asking and learning.

Well snakes at different stages and age and periods of the year all need different amounts of food. Best thing is feed , feed, feed and you will learn when a snake is hungry and it is not.

If you can figure out how to live with the opposite sex and computers this is a cake walk.
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

Trees don't grow on money either.

True dat!!!
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Todd Hughes

i tend to get scared of just feed and feed and feed lol! don't want my snakes to be so fat lol. well this is what i been doing for a while is for hatchlings snakes (pinky mice stage) i tend to feed them every 3 days at least. as for adults i feed them every 5 days or so. i guess i need to watch the snakes more for hunger but i might suck at it haha! when you say feed and feed i am not sure how much or how many or (is it everyday? just kidding). but hey thanks for explaining.

I agree, and I "powerfeed" my snakes, too. I subscribe to the "Tom Stevens Approach." But I'm trying to look at this situation from the perspective of someone who is new to snakekeeping. Guy buys a snake at a petshop. You'd think they would try to sell him as many mice as possible to make some money. Instead, they tell the guy to feed it a pinky once a week, so that's what he does. I hang around pet stores and hear it all the time. Even though I don't usually buy anything retail, I overhear their conversations with other customers. And when I was younger, that's just what I did. And I wondered why my snakes wouldn't grow.

Speaking of feeding, I've got to go and thaw some rodents.
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1.1.0 Hondurans Het Amel
1.1.0 Hondurans Anery, Het Hypo
0.1.0 Honduran Hypo
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0.0.1 Speckled King WC
0.0.1 Jungle Carpet
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i second that. "pet stores cr@p" when i first got into snakes and my first snake was a campbell (milk) then a normal corn and that corn grew wayyyy too slow and in about 3 years this corn can only eat/fit a hopper mostly smaller and only 2 feet long and as thick as my middle finger but not exact. now my lesson learned. that was over 10 years ago.

But on the other end of it, a lot of people don't believe you about how big of a meal a snake can take, or how often to feed snakes. I've had people tell me that the whole point they got the snake was to only feed it once a week/month, so that's what they're going to do.

Granted, not all petstores are created equal, but when you're trying to be one of the 'good guys', customers can make it pretty darn hard. :-/

~jenny
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"Polysyllabism in no way insures that what you're saying is actually worth being heard." - Blake (an e-friend of mine)

"I have never made but one prayer to god, a very short one: "O lord, make my enemies ridiculous." And he granted it." - Voltaire

BTW, I hope no one feels like I'm downing pet stores. That's not my intention. Like any business, there are good ones and bad ones, and I certainly respect the good ones.
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1.1.0 Hondurans Het Amel
1.1.0 Hondurans Anery, Het Hypo
0.1.0 Honduran Hypo
0.2.0 Pueblans
1.0.0 Thayeri MSP
0.0.1 GBK Blair's Phase
1.0.0 California King
0.0.1 Speckled King WC
0.0.1 Jungle Carpet
0.1.0 Ball, Normal
0.0.1 Sulcata
0.1.0 Girlfriend, Caucasius Mexicana, Fiancee Phase

Nah, it's just that you ALWAYS hear about the awful pet stores...and never the good ones.

I work at my store because I've been shopping there for the past two, almost three years, and I guess they just caved and hired me
The folks there, honest-to-god, each have their own following, and they all have been in the hobby for years and know their stuff. We read all the care books, we each have our area of speciality, and if we don't know, you bet we look it up. Our store is clean, the cages clean, the animals healthy and doing well.

But you never hear about petstores like ours.

~jenny
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"Polysyllabism in no way insures that what you're saying is actually worth being heard." - Blake (an e-friend of mine)

"I have never made but one prayer to god, a very short one: "O lord, make my enemies ridiculous." And he granted it." - Voltaire

then bring over the pet store you work at to my home town. just kidding. great to hear about some good pet shops. i got nothing good here and there are 8 pet stores around here.

around here, there's 1 that I don't have to drive at least an hour to get to and they quit carrying mice, frozen or live...
But after what they did to a friends dog grooming it, I wouldn't give them my money anyway...
Apparently, they're scared of big dogs, so they choke them till they pass out, then groom them... My friend went to pick up her dog and they said it hadn't woke up yet, so she couldn't get it...
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~Maggie~

"Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious."
1.1 Cal Kings
1.0 Mali Uromastyx
1.0 Brooksi
0.1 Red Belly Piranha
1.0 Quarter Horse
1.0 Australian Shepherd

what the h#ll?? pass the dog out? that's sad. so what happened next?

if it had been my dog, a lawsuit... but i dont know what she's going to do about it, other then not take her dog there again...
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~Maggie~

"Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious."
1.1 Cal Kings
1.0 Mali Uromastyx
1.0 Brooksi
0.1 Red Belly Piranha
1.0 Quarter Horse
1.0 Australian Shepherd

"Wild snakes eat as soon as they can and as often as they can. But, if they cannot find food, they have a fix for that. They simply drop their body temps to lower their need for food."

When they are done digesting is it natural instinct to thermoregulate down to a level that prevents the absorbtion of fat stores? Are chemicals released in the brain or body when fat stores begin to be absorbed? Chemicals that cause a response? And cause stress when the snake cannot respond naturally? If so, a fat snake may not need to actually get thin to become stressed and eat a cagemete. Another meal or a refuge with proper conditions may relieve that stress and prevent a cannabalistic event.

Way off base Frank.

Frank I totally think you are onto something with this "family group" stuff. Having lifted many boards and rocks and found kings of several types associating with each other and with other species, I think for them to cannabalize there is always a reason. I think that feeding and unfamiliarity are not the only reasons though. Anyhting can set it off and in a confined environment one king may get sick of his "brother" or "wife" hogging the heat spot and just decide to eat them. Many things, I think, could set off a cannabalistic event. Heck one king may not like the smell of cooking hamburgers wafting into the snakeroom and just go bonkers on it's cagemates. My spotted pythons used to pace their cages every time I cooked hamburger. There are so many variables to duplicate in captivity I think anyone who tries to maintain kings in groups must be fully prepared to accept failure.

I like that "individual snake" comment as well. I've caught many splendida under the same boards with calligaster at the same time. Snakes just hanging out with each other without consequence. On the other hand I have a splendida right now that I guarantee will try to eat her mate when the time comes to breed her (she tried it every time last year).

Despite the arguments, another interesting topic!
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http://www.hcu-tx.org
http://www.kingsnake.com/mexicana/
http://www.joeforks.com

I think you're right, Joe.
It's good for all these opinions to be expressed and the knowledge shared. Everyone could gain from reading these posts. I'm 32 and have been keeping snakes since I was, like, 5 years old and I learn something new almost every day from these forums, my own snakes and the good people who post on here who I've spoken to and bought snakes from.
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1.1.0 Hondurans Anery, Het Hypo
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0.0.1 Speckled King WC
0.0.1 Jungle Carpet
0.1.0 Ball, Normal
0.0.1 Sulcata
0.1.0 Girlfriend, Caucasius Mexicana, Fiancee Phase

I don't think the "multiple snakes under the board" thing is completely relevant. In my experience, which is admittedly limited, snakes under boards, tin or other artificial cover (AC) are generally thermoregulating to facilitate digestion, shedding or perhaps just general warming depending on the time of year or day. Its a HUGE jump to equate what happens under AC in the wild to what happens in the confines of a cage.

we don't fully understand all the kingsnake behaviors (wild and captive). Thanks for reinforcing my point Tony
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http://www.hcu-tx.org
http://www.kingsnake.com/mexicana/
http://www.joeforks.com

...............the attitude of the snakes being kept together. I think you have to look at this topic on a "snake by snake" basis. I've had some kingsnakes that practically jumped at the chance to down any other snake that crossed their paths. I had an Fl/eastern integrade that went after a baby prairie king, a bullsnake (that was larger than it was) and a rough green snake - he did not discriminate. I had a 5 ft. male Florida king that almost killed a buddy's 6 ft boa constrictor - that was a freaky moment. I've also had other florida and eastern pairs that lived just fine together. I have had more than a few common kings, be they cal's, holbrooki's, or goini's that have never shown any interest in eating another snake when given the oppurtunity. I really think it depends on each individual snakes preferences and how hungry they are.

I've raised clutches of one of the most notorious "cannibals", the eastern chain king, together (many years ago when space was tight) and had no problems whatsoever. Of course they were on a twice weekly feeding schedule, and were seperated for feeding.
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Brad Chambers

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

You're wrong Frank. I had a friend hatch a clutch of Cal kings and some individuals ate others while in the incubator only a day or so after hatching.

Cal kings will each each other even if they're not starving.

Tim

You're wrong Frank. I had a friend hatch a clutch of Cal kings and some individuals ate others while in the incubator only a day or so after hatching.

Cal kings will each each other even if they're not starving.

I have had three females eat their own eggs right as they laid in 2004, 2005, 2006 and 2007.

Now I take the eggs out right as a female is laying. I go back and take 2 out. Check back in ten and get a few more.

I hate when that happens.
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

Trees don't grow on money either.

May I have your permission to use this post on other forums. All credit of course will be given to you. Thanks.

PETCO by me actually is pretty good they know what they are doing and very healthy reptiles though I boycott them because they REFUSE to carry standard 30 gallon tanks (36 inches) and thus I had to go hour away if not more for them

they only carry 29 gallon tanks

29 is the standard... 30g breeders or long are much less common, and have less demand...

Used to work there... the animals aren't usually as healthy as they seem. If it doesn't say CB or isn't something that obviously must be captive bred (like leopard geckos or bearded draagons), then they are CH or WC. They just buy them from a middleman, because then they can claim they bought it from a specific supplier, not directly from an importer (which somehow makes it okay).

...is there a significant size difference with that extra gallon? Did you want something with more length? 'Cause I swear those 29 gallons are pretty darn close to the 30s we carry at my store.
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"Polysyllabism in no way insures that what you're saying is actually worth being heard." - Blake (an e-friend of mine)

"I have never made but one prayer to god, a very short one: "O lord, make my enemies ridiculous." And he granted it." - Voltaire

LOL!.....As your post says,...."no problems yet",......the key word here, is "YET".

Not a good idea AT ALL!, as mentioned by the previous poster, it is surely just a matter of time before something surely does!

Inevitably, one day, one will be gone, and the other one will look like a "stuffed sausage".

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Cal kings "can" eat other - FACT - no matter what the conditions.

Contrary to someone's "very small time on this earth"...cal kings have been around longer than any single human being. They can eat each other (in the wild and yes, in captivity - ya know...like what you are doing). Some cal kings like mice, some like rats, some like other reptiles, some will eat rattlesnakes, some WILL NOT eat rattlesnakes, some like eggs, birds, etc.. Some like other snakes, to include their own. Some people's misunderstanding of trying to use logic on this forum is hilarious! Cal kings DO EAT each other and yes, their species survives! Northern Pike eat other, their species survives, largemouth bass eat each other, their species survives...LOTS of species in the animal world eat their own...yet their species survives. Cal kings DO EAT each other in the wild and in captivity and their species survives.

In captivity (what you are doing) cal kings can eat each other even from the same clutch...that is a fact....even when obese.

If you think that a properly fed cal king won't eat another cal king (sibling or not) than that is simply ignorance.

In captivity (what you are doing) cal kings can be kept together...but they can eat each other...your choice...but be careful what you read from on these forums (to include my opinion). See, I've only been breeding cal kings for about 15 years (which does not make me an EXPERT-but my observations are VALID - just like yours will be)...there is a lot to learn (some people have painted their own CLOSED box based and their expertise ha ha )

My observations are no less important than anyone else's. YOUR observations are no less important than anyone else's. Make your own observations and decide for yourself.

Kerby...
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Lonesome Valley Reptiles
www.lonesomevalleyreptiles.com
Specializing In California Kingsnakes

Well said Kerby and BlueRosy!!! You guys have kept these snakes longer than I have, and I've noticed the same things. Adults have never attempted to each other or even the Cal kings that are around 20", in my experience. In 06 I kept two newly hatched siblings together for two weeks, then one day one coiled around the other and had it good. Luckily I was there to separate them. I will never keep juveniles together again.

Hi Kerby , Its a good thing I read your post because I was about to reply to FR's post almost word for word to yours.But one shouldn't get too serious about someone who can't even spell with a measure of accuracy. If I spelled like that I surely would "strave"to death and eat my own species.Lol Hey, how come this forum isn't fun 100% of the time? It should be you know. Why the name calling, why all the self styled experts/authorities especially the large number of them that love to rub it in other peoples faces? Why can't we all just get along?

"Blessed are the cheesemakers."-Brian of Nazareth

I found this video of FR during his younger days as the Techno Viking dance king.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1nzEFMjkI4

So hard, so euro, so hardcore, so totally [bleep]ing Bohemian.
DAH!!!

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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

Trees don't grow on money either.

Youre too funny sometimes dude. almost made watching your table worthwhile last year. couldnt resist a dig at the lousy spelling accumen. It was just straving for an insult. hey that bret frave sure played a crummy game sunday.

it Fav'Ray!
BTW Howie that was also me that Rainer had watch his table on Daytona/Sunday so you could have a break.And he never quite disclosed what he bought while we watched and he shopped.

hey Chris, good to chat with you again. yeah we need to find out what he bought. i personally think he was sneaking cocktails(it takes one to know one). glad i have found some agreement here about FRs post. and the very meanness in it. i guess some people never learned the simple courtesy of contstructive criticism, or at the very least prefacing a comment by stating that it is simply your own humble opinion.ah well, takes all types. and Rainer, your a great guy and all, but I am going to state my opinions and certainly come to the defense of the object of a mean sprited post no matter if its FR, God or even the omnipotent Curly Q.Link

I have read the original post and all the posts after, and I will state, as my opinions, that
1) Frank, Rainer, and Kerby have a lot of experience, proply Howie and Doug as well.
2) More than likely, both scenarios are probable
3) Frank apologized for being mean
4) We have captive bred (mostly) and cannot 100% confirm that the two kings are or are not clutchmates
5) I think we stress our snakes more than in nature, and nature can dish out a lot of stress, that makes our captives release behaviors that they may or may not normally express in the wild. In other words, I do not think it easy to study kingsnakes in captivity with the same set of parameters as in the wild, and vice versa.
6) We are all mean sometimes and we are all nice sometimes, but we are NEVER nice ALL the time or NEVER mean ALL the time.
7) I have gleaned a crapload of info from both wild observations and captive situations from almost all on this and other forums
8) all this doesn't mean squat in YOUR collections
9) what matters is what YOU do in YOUR collections ONLY to YOU, LOL!
10) All you guys are funny mo fos 90% of the time and can be jerks 10% of the time and
11) I am a jerk 90% of the time and funny 5% of the time, the other 5% I am confused at best!

I also hope the original poster does the experiment and learns the answer for themself, that way they will KNOW for certain what CAN happen in THEIR collection, one way or another and not rely on someone else to answer the question for them. How did any of you KNOW what would happen? Didn't someone tell you yes or no? Obviously some of you did not listen and some did and had different results.
I think all answers are right and wrong, there are no absolutes, both can and have happened so the real answer is yes and no.

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Todd Hughes

I just seperate them at birth and house them by them selves and then there is zero chance of it happening.I have even had corns eat each other (hatchlings and clutch mates)in the past so whats the point in the experiment you speak of Todd? LOL...it can and does happen all the time in the wild and in captivity.I don't get the argument?
Oh well, L8r

Very well put and my thoughts exactly.

I second that

Hi
Lol I was just kidding. I was reading the posts and just wanted to kid.
I will debate about breeding "CA" Guppies which I used to breed lol

what kind of name is Juile?
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

Trees don't grow on money either.

Lol I was going to ask you same thing . What kind of name is Bluerosy ?

It is a hard, euro, so hardcore, totally [bleep]ing Bohemian thing.LOL!

Actaully it is from ture axanthic rosy boas which were blue. ie "blue rosy".

Are you a chick? Can you post a pic?

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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

Trees don't grow on money either.

YES we need pics. Its not hard watch I will do it.

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i'm not over weight i'm under tall

When I signed up on kingsnake my real name Julie was taken I couldnt use it so went with this form.

I am a "chick" and will post a pic of my snakes soon and back yard pond but may or may not me after all this isnt the Howard Stern show is it lol

point is, person A says this, person B says that, lines are drawn, sides are joined, this person doesn't know which way to turn. If they want to KNOW FOR SURE, the only way to know is do it for themselves. Most of us do not want to lose any snakes for any reason, but we are prepared for the event of losing some. Kind of like knowing exactly what kind of snake you have, if YOU catch it, that is as sure as you can be, unless Rainer is nearby throwing morphs under boards while you aren't looking! Shannon, you live in Cali, have you ever seen a Calking eating anoyher in the wild, or a dor with another sticking out of its' gut, or caught one that regurged another? In captivity, this can and does happen, but it doesn't have to, that's what I get out of this reply. I have never seen any dor or w.c. snake with another of its' own kind in its' gut. Not a definite, but my data says no.
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Todd Hughes

Todd,

Like Shannon I have done a lot of feild collecting in Calif. I have never seen a cal king in the stomach of another.
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

Trees don't grow on money either.

I know that, I was simply waiting to add his comment on the scale. I live in splendy/holbrooki/calligaster range and experience the same, if ever there was a snake eater out there, it's calligaster. No cannibals seen here, which doesn't mean anything except in my experience, I haven't seen it. Lack of proof is no proof, hahahahaha!
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Todd Hughes

My sig comes from one of my favorite sayings when debating evolution...but it also translates well to this topic.
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Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

I was having problems in the restroom. OKAY!

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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

Trees don't grow on money either.

I agree.
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"Polysyllabism in no way insures that what you're saying is actually worth being heard." - Blake (an e-friend of mine)

"I have never made but one prayer to god, a very short one: "O lord, make my enemies ridiculous." And he granted it." - Voltaire

I was going to respond with something VERY similar to yours in reply to FR's post. Very well said!

The "FACT" is,......there is always "POTENTIAL" for cannibalism to occur. And I also don't see how this can be argued,..... even if "someone" happens to be the self proclaimed "KINGSNAKE GURU" of all time, and has been breeding them since Abraham Lincoln was in office!..LOL!

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Nothing else needs to be said.
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Genesis 1:1

well like others have said they are cannibals but then again aren't all carnivores capable of cannibalism? siamese fighting fish(betta) live together in rivers???kings live together in the wild(obviously or they wouldn exhist)what gives???... husbandry, conditions and probably ALOT more variables that noone will ever understand. im guessing your new to kings by listening to "the man" you bought them from as oppossed to doing the research before purchasing so i would suggest housing them seperate, however if you do choose to continually house them together feed them seperately and keep an eye out for when they are in feeding mode.
best of luck,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Well, I have proof that Red Belly Piranha will turn to cannibalism when left in the care of a roommate for a weekend... But the last time I checked, they survive quite well in the Amazon on their own...
So ya, I can agree that any carnivore is capable of turning to cannabalism under the right circumstances...
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~Maggie~

"Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious."
1.1 Cal Kings
1.0 Mali Uromastyx
1.0 Brooksi
0.1 Red Belly Piranha
1.0 Quarter Horse
1.0 Australian Shepherd

Being relatively new to Kings (3years) and to snakes in general, I've read the posts and opinions on here, and they all present pretty relevant and interesting points of view. IMHO I think there's more reasons to keep 'em separate than together, the foundation of which would probably be for simple observation on the individual well being of each snake (which is why I house all of my snakes separately... for now). Just my .02.

Happy 34th Day of Winter,
reako45

Being relatively new to Kings (3years) and to snakes in general, I've read the posts and opinions on here, and they all present pretty relevant and interesting points of view. IMHO I think there's more reasons to keep 'em separate than together, the foundation of which would probably be for simple observation on the individual well being of each snake (which is why I house all of my snakes separately... for now). Just my .02.

Biggest reason for me to keep them together is cage space.
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

Trees don't grow on money either.

Man, I feel sorry for you. Bet when you posted that simple question, you weren't expecting to open this can o' worms...or snakes.
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1.1.0 Hondurans Het Amel
1.1.0 Hondurans Anery, Het Hypo
0.1.0 Honduran Hypo
0.2.0 Pueblans
1.0.0 Thayeri MSP
0.0.1 GBK Blair's Phase
1.0.0 California King
0.0.1 Speckled King WC
0.0.1 Jungle Carpet
0.1.0 Ball, Normal
0.0.1 Sulcata
0.1.0 Girlfriend, Caucasius Mexicana, Fiancee Phase

When the Beatles penned the words to that tune, they obviously never checked out posts like these on the kingsnake forum.

Rainer, you are a nut. thats probably why i like you. I do lean left, especially after the events of the past 7 years. but to be honest , i hope the next debate when they put all the candidates together that they all eat one another.