Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Why is it such a huge deal?
I can understand trying to preserve a certain look for a snake - for instance, I am very fond of the way wild-type Guyanas look. However, if you are not trying to breed to create more snakes that look like that type, and are instead trying to breed snakes that to your eye, look better...why is it such a bad thing to cross localities within the same species? We're going to assume that the person doing this is up front when they sell that they are not trying to breed locality specific snakes, just snakes that look good.
I just don't quite understand all this locality stuff and why it's such a big deal in this instance. The whole point of 'designer' snakes is that they are snakes that would not be found in nature - why try and preserve purity of a bloodline when it could benefit from an outcross?

Not trying to start a flame war, just curious as to what you all think.
Thanks!

~jenny
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"Polysyllabism in no way insures that what you're saying is actually worth being heard." - Blake (an e-friend of mine)

"I have never made but one prayer to god, a very short one: "O lord, make my enemies ridiculous." And he granted it." - Voltaire

IMO there are two basic points of view.

Having a pure-bred animal (locality) appeals to some.

Having a designer snake, maybe purebred, probably not appeals to others.

All the discussions (many get quite heated) (IMHO) simply boil down to one side thinking their point of view is better and trying to convince the other side they're wrong.

My oppinion is BOTH sides are right for their own reasons and it's up to each individual to decide what they want/like. And no reason you can't have some of both.

Problems DO crop up related to sales, some will mis-represent their animals to increase their value. I've heard and seen both sides getting the shaft on that one, localities that don't look quite right and morphs proving out not het for what they were supposed to be.

Lastly, BOTH SIDES have the same inherent problem, inbreeding can lead to genetic defects!!! And selective breeding can and does lead to animals with a specific look which may not be true to a wild type animal!! Fur example, not all WT Suri's have a big bright red tail but many breeders are breeding for that very trait. After a few generations, fewer (if any) are born with a more normal looking tail. Still sold (and rightfully so) as Suri's but the misconception is Suri = big bright red tail.

Just my $0.02 (ok, more like $0.035)
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Your opinion is much like mine. It just seems kind of silly that both sides fight so fiercely over it - they're both doing the same thing, they just have different end goals.

Thanks for the response!

~jenny
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"Polysyllabism in no way insures that what you're saying is actually worth being heard." - Blake (an e-friend of mine)

"I have never made but one prayer to god, a very short one: "O lord, make my enemies ridiculous." And he granted it." - Voltaire

there are too many unscrupulous, shall we say, crosses, and these crosses sometimes look close enough to a pure locality that some will try to sell it for more money as a locale boa. For example if I'm going to buy a sabogae, I damn well want to know it's a real sabogae before I spend that kind of money on it.

Another thing is, really it's just kind of nice to know what your boa is. I deal in Nics, I don't have any colombians, and I want to keep it that way, at least for now. For example I have been considering leopard boas, and I really would like a pure central leopard boa, not a bigger than normal colombian cross. Many localities have a typical look, and I for one would like to keep that in most.

Some crosses are in fact extremely pretty, but eventually no one will know what boa is what, and the lines between subspecies will mean nothing, and all boas will look the same because they're so mixed (clearly this is an exaggeration). But I think the different forms of boas within the trade made it more interesting. I would lose interest if all boas looked the same.

That and I like my little boas to stay little. Sorry for the ramble, hopefully it makes some sense.

It did. Thanks! Your reasons to stay with locale boas make sense.

~jenny
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"Polysyllabism in no way insures that what you're saying is actually worth being heard." - Blake (an e-friend of mine)

"I have never made but one prayer to god, a very short one: "O lord, make my enemies ridiculous." And he granted it." - Voltaire

> We're going to assume that the person doing this is up front when they sell

Well that’s really the problem isn’t it? I’m not a huge fan of crosses (although I do own some salmon boas, I didn’t know they were crosses before). However, I don’t mind if people do it, just so long as they are upfront about it. A lot aren’t as the other posters have also pointed out. I cannot even count the number of times I’ve looked at ads for hog isle boas and recognized a cross being sold as pure.

>why is it such a bad thing to cross localities within the same species?

Some people, ahem, me being one of them, believe the ‘species’ labels are not always accurate. I think more work should be done to classify the hog isles for example. Right now they are classified the same as any Colombian BCi but are not as common and were thought to be extinct in the wild. I think a natural looking hog isle is gorgeous and would like to see that look continue and not get mixed and forgotten.

It’s all up to you and what you like. I’m not going to tell someone they have no right to do something. If all people were scrupulous and honest about they sold the world would be a better place.

My $.02

-April
(Egg, my hog isle being hissy)

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'There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."' -Rainshadow

I agree, it would be much better if people were more upfront about what they were really selling.

I think though, that depending on where that cross was attempting to be sold... if the seller was upfront about it being a cross, they'd either get a lecture on breeding ethics (why would they make a hybrid?!) or a lecture on responsible keeping of animals if they claimed the pairing was accidental.
Just something I've noticed, not necessarily on this forum.

I appreciate the two cents

~jenny
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"Polysyllabism in no way insures that what you're saying is actually worth being heard." - Blake (an e-friend of mine)

"I have never made but one prayer to god, a very short one: "O lord, make my enemies ridiculous." And he granted it." - Voltaire

I guess I can appreciate both sides of the locality/morph debate...

I am working on several dwarf boa projects...Sonoran desert boas, Hondurans, Nicaraguan, etc...I like the small size, and they definitely have a distinctive look in their pure form...

That being said, I would like to work in the future toward dwarf morphs, creating smaller adult boas more suitable for pets...

And, I also have 50/50 Suriname/Columbian crosses het for albino, the reason being the Suriname blood does so much for the color and pattern of the albinos...

I think the most important issue with intergrades, is full disclosure and honesty on the part of the seller, and anyone who may own/sell the animal in the future...
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Heather Martin
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Agreed. But the reason for dishonesty is that so much emphasis is placed on the importance of an animal with pure locale bloodlines, or an animal fresh from that locale.

Meeehhh. Supply and Demand!

~jenny
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"Polysyllabism in no way insures that what you're saying is actually worth being heard." - Blake (an e-friend of mine)

"I have never made but one prayer to god, a very short one: "O lord, make my enemies ridiculous." And he granted it." - Voltaire

I feed that becuse I prefer localities to mix breeds or morphs. Just my personal preference so I will pay more for a known origin and bloodline than for one that was questionable. So, yes, it is very important to me because I am looking to produce more locality (Suriname BCC) boas
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My take on this subject is this.....There is a place for all boas in this hobby. Whatever makes someone want a boa is a good thing. If you like it because it is pure then that may be what makes you want to care for that particular boa. If it is because your particular morph is more rare than someone else's then perhaps your prized morph will get the kind of care it deserves. Good for the boa in both cases.

I look at it like this. Morphers are like x games athletes. Looking to be on the cutting edge of the newest and latest thing that has been come up with. Purists are like show dog breeders, looking to produce or procure what they consider the "ideal" for a particular locale. The x gamer would consider creating carbon copys of that locality a boring waste when there are so many "new" things to be explored. The show dog breeder considers taking the "ideal" and altering it a wast of great genetics and detrimental to said breed.

Not alot that can be done to change that in people as personality has alot to do with what a person likes. As long as these animals are being taken care of and properly represented, I say have fun with the type of boa of your choice.

JMO
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You make very good points! I like the showdog analogy, and I sort of wish that kind of thought would carry over into the morph side of things. Instead of striving to improve the type locality, striving to produce the best looking example of that morph, by incorporating genes from different pools.
Maybe someone is already doing that and I am just too new to this to know about them yet?

~jenny
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"Polysyllabism in no way insures that what you're saying is actually worth being heard." - Blake (an e-friend of mine)

"I have never made but one prayer to god, a very short one: "O lord, make my enemies ridiculous." And he granted it." - Voltaire

I think there is so much more blatant outright premeditated felonious scammery going on these days because of the Ball Python market. It's spilling over to other markets.
That pyramid scheme is like a boil getting ready to pop, with all of those "Beanie Baby Snakes".
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

(I'm one of those crazy beanie baby ball python collectors )

But you're right. The ball python market is so much easier to scam with. People who don't understand genetics think it'll be a snap... Haha!

The market 'bubble' is already starting to pop. Listen to the whining when you walk by a table at a show - "omg these were so much more last year!". Now's the time to buy stuff that makes cool combos - In the last year I've spent $200 on snakes that would have easily cost three or four times that just two years ago.
Now is also the time when folks who invested in quality animals are seeing the true results - their offspring are not dropping much in price ($600 for a NERD line lemon pastel!) but a low grade pastel that someone just threw with their normal is producing babies that they can't sell even for the price of a normal ball.

It's fun to watch if your life savings isn't invested in it.

~jenny
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"Polysyllabism in no way insures that what you're saying is actually worth being heard." - Blake (an e-friend of mine)

"I have never made but one prayer to god, a very short one: "O lord, make my enemies ridiculous." And he granted it." - Voltaire

My point is -- there are just so many people with thoughts of getting rich off a pair of "investment" pythons, that paid way too much and know basically nothing about reptile husbandry, genetics, and the economies of breeding -- in that market.

There are more ways/methods/options to be dishonest in that market than in any market I've ever seen. I hatched my first snake eggs in 1965 or 66. I was 13 or 14 at the time. I've seen them come and I've seen them go.

jsc

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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

And I agree with you.

Balls were the first snakes I've ever bred, and I love em. I honestly think it'll be nice once the bubble pops and people stop buying them just to get rich - I like the boa circle more in the aspect that folks on this side are trying to improve the looks of their speciality, whether it be locale or morph wise. The only ones apparently trying to improve their stock in balls are the big breeders, but they don't necessarily put that out there, and smaller breeders don't seem to get that aspect of it.
Oh well.

~jenny
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"Polysyllabism in no way insures that what you're saying is actually worth being heard." - Blake (an e-friend of mine)

"I have never made but one prayer to god, a very short one: "O lord, make my enemies ridiculous." And he granted it." - Voltaire