Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I wondering when all the herp people in texas are going to start listening to those of us in other states who have been through this. Months ago I tried to tell you that you better start collecting MONEY because when they started screwing you on collecting I could see California 25 plus years ago. Once they win one, your in BIG trouble and you let it slide by. You need $20,000 to $30,000 just to start, and plan on $50,000 to $100,000 by the time your done. Four of us spent $28,000 just on one case here in California in the late 70's when attorneys were alot cheaper than they are now. You also need a lobbyist = MORE MONEY. Your RIGHTS mean nothing to these people. I've found in this country you either pay for your rights or someone else will take them from you.
Michael Luhrs

How did things get so far in Texas? With all the Herp Societies and breeders I would think that you could have some kind of influence in the state legislature. Louisiana has faced some unwanted laws in the past few years but we were able to defeat them with only a few enthusiastic members of a local Herp Society. With the help of term limits this past year, the nemesis for reptile activities in the State Legislature was unable to run again. Because there was going to be a 60% change in the State Legislature, The Exotic Pet Owners Association spent a lot of time interviewing candidates for the House & Senate and encouraged other folks state wide to do the same. We now have some legislators that are sensitive to our issues and will protect individual rights. Hopefully our major battles are over. ~Bill Watts~ EPOA Executive Director

The 2007 legislation snuck up on us, but they won't find us asleep next time! Check out (and join!):

Herpetological Conservation Unlimited
www.hcu-TX.org
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Brad Chambers

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Just a hint, the last time we went to war with the Cal Fish and Game we hired a lobbyist who was the retired head of the state Fish & Game commission. The first check was for $10,000 and worth every penny. It's probably closer to $20,000 to $25,000 now. What everyone needs to understand is that you can't fight these people without lots of money. You need to get all the breeders to kick in at least a thousand each. Hell for the bigger breeders that just one or two snakes. Pet shops will scream but they need to kick in at least $250 each. Let them know that if they don't want to join you then NONE of you will shop at their stores again and mean it. You people are behind the eight ball and they are about to bank you into the corner. You have to stop being nice. Believe me they will kick you when your down anytime they get a chance.
Michael Luhrs

I also believe that massive public input is very influential. On the last roadban we essentially won the battle without a lobbyist, in that we got the law changed. Unfortunately Mr. Hilderbrand apparently had his mind already made up from talking to just two or the TPWD higher-ups with personal agendas. He ignored the clear will of the people and his fellow legislators and snuck the law back in as a rider at the end of the session. We know from HCU's Freedom of Information Act requests that all of our calls were giving them major headaches. In what little public debate there was(smalltown newspapers, internet forums) the herpers fared very well and there were few arguements in favor of the roadban that stood up to even a small amount of logic and critical thinking. I got the distinct impression that HH and TPWD did not want any publicity on their doings. I firmly believe that public outcry can be very effective next time around, as I do not think any legislator will want to spend as much time(wasted public money) on this issue, which recieved very little public support and tons of opposition. While a lobbyist could help alot, I think on this issue public outrage is every bit as important as having a lobbyist.

Has PIJAC helped any?

I don't know, they might have helped with the exotics part. I think it was mostly grayband hunters and private herpers who got involved in the roadban part. The roadban thing was orchestrated by just a few guys within TPWD. It was never based on any science or data or records, just revenge for old personal confrontations these guys had in the field with gryaband hunters.
Anyways that's just my opinion but I can tell you that these confrontations were already legendary by the time I started hunting graybands in 1996. The behavior and lack of respect by some grayband hunters was wrong but IMHO that pales in comparision to the misuse of power by these higher ups in TPWD. There was no science behind the grayband prohibitions of the 1980's and there is no science behind this new roadban. It is the same circus of bullpucky happening all over again.
You guys in TPWD (and I know you're watching) need to realize that most of us today had nothing to do with that stuff that went on in the 70's and 80's. Let it go. Let us walk the freakin' roadcuts.
Sorry for the rant.

I agree with Aaron, but I hope we can get it done without a lobbyist. Running a smooth and clean campaign(fight) is just as important to me than winning. I do not want to stoop to buying our way in, as that is dirty and should be held out for all to see. It may be the way things are done, but I for one don't think it should be, not now, not ever. I would hope that we will win by merits of truth and sound scientific data, of which they can supply little. We are the citizens utilizing the resources, they should manage it, but not prohibit sound resource management. To cap all without sound evidence is absurd.
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Todd Hughes

We are actively pursuing a good lobbyist. We are fighting them on every front. I'm not going to say we are going to fight dirty, but we aren't going to fight nice. I don't think Hilderbran is going to be happy when we show up at his campaign headquarters and fund raisers and start planting signs in his district. He may not have an opponent in this election, but his reputation is going to be blemished by his own actions.

We got plenty in store, we are not giving up, I don't care how long it takes or how much it costs.

Now we know how to play the game, offense, defense, and special teams.
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http://www.hcu-tx.org
http://www.kingsnake.com/mexicana/
http://www.joeforks.com

A Lobbyist is a good move. And when you picket or make signs, point out the fact that this guy is against the Freedom of Individual Rights. Yesterday it was to limit the Freedom of owning Reptiles, tommorrow it may be some other freedom like limiting how many miles you can drive yoor car.... Taking our rights away has to stop now! ~Bill~

When this first cropped up the law did not apply to us because of a language definition. At the very last minute the phrase "game animal" was changed to "wild animal".

That is the reason we got caught with our pants down. We were well aware of the law ahead of time, but it simply did not apply to "us" because of the language.

That was a new one on us. Lesson learned the hard way.

Also , we did have a lobbyist that wanted $40K to fix it, but heard that Hilderbran was going to screw us at the last minute anyway. That would have an expensive mistake.
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http://www.hcu-tx.org
http://www.kingsnake.com/mexicana/
http://www.joeforks.com

One of the problems with stuff like "the language not applying to us" is that some of these posts contain information that the people, like Hilderbran, can use against us. If they weren't reading our posts, they would not have thought of the change in the wording on their own - They really aren't that smart

The old saying, "Loose lips sink ships", applies here.

The time to talk about certain aspects of the law, that we can use as loopholes, is after the law has been passed.

That being said, did anyone see Harvey & his pet assistant, Todd, coming out of a restroom together?
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"And the rest is all in his head"

I agree with you Max, but it was cause and effect. After they changed the wording, we went nuts on the web.

It was TP&W that changed the wording. They lobbied for the law from a state capacity which is against the law. Greg Abbott does'nt care, and neither did Rick Perry. I have yet to find an attorney to attack on these grounds.
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http://www.hcu-tx.org
http://www.kingsnake.com/mexicana/
http://www.joeforks.com

Ok, I guess what I am worried about is us losing the sense of urgency we had last session. I get mistrustful when someone says just give me $40,000 and I will fix it. I want details, updates on wht the other side is doing and honest answers about both what the other side wants and why. The lobbyist that just came out of the blue last year and said give me $40,000, was what put me off on lobbyists. Seeing as how we now have time to research a lobbyist and choose carefully, as long as the public still has alot of input, I am not opposed to it.

Thats one of the reasons you hire a lobbyist, so you don't get blindsided. Believe me if you had spent the money all this would have never happened. As for fighting the "good, clean fight" all I can say is get a grip on reality. This is the real world not some pollyanna class room exercise. You either do what it takes to win or go hide in the corner because the people your fighting will eat your heart while it still beating in your chest. I've been fighting these kind of people since the early 70's. I thought just because we were right and they were wrong we would win. I can't believe I was ever that naive but I was, all of us were. California Fish & Game kicked our ass up and down the block. You wouldn't believe some of the bad science they used, alot of it outright lies. We tried to counter with the truth and got kicked in the teeth over and over. Untill you understand that they will keep cutting off one finger at a time till you don't have a hand to fight with, you will keep losing. At this point you will probably never get back the rights thay have taken away but you can still stop them from taking more.
Michael Luhrs

Sir I will be quite honest with you. You sound like a salesman trying to sell me something. What do all these expressions mean? Fancey words and phrases like "getting our a**es kicked up and down the block" or "getting our teeth knocked out" have no substance. I appreciate your passion but you have given no examples of where a lobbyist has actually helped you. In fact in one post you say you paid $10,000 for a lobbyist in a California fight and in the next post you say you got your "teeth knocked out" in CA, or some such thing. Understand sir, I am not saying a lobbyist is a bad thing. You just have not convinced me even minutely that it would have or will solve all our problems.
You may look at the last session as a failure. I personally have never seen herpers respond in a more unified and powerful voice to any herp issue. I think the politicians sensed that well. I do not think the politicians are looking forward at all to next session and we did that without a lobbyist. I simply believe that logic and science are on our side on this issue and that if we continue debate through nonstop public response, logic and science will prevail. I fear that a lobbyist may stifle debate IF we regard that lobbyist as a cure-all.

Yessir, I have more time to devote to phone calls, e mails and letter writing than I did last year. Believe me when I say the public's voice will be heard, till they can stand it no more. Lose rights? Ha, I will keep on until we have non game laws here that will be balanced in protecting both the animals and habitat with wise use of the natural resources for everyone. Why should game animals get preferential treatment? You say money talks, I say people talk, and you will hear more talk this session than ever before about these issues.
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Todd Hughes

You know, Pollyanna style isn't my way, but I will tell you this, stand until you can stand no more, then stand some more! I don't believe in fighting dirty 'cause it's the way it's done, and you won't see me crying over any of it. There will always be places to hunt, but to stoop is still getting lower. You just don't get it, personally, I am sorry for what you went through, but I don't believe in payola, that's b.s. There are other ways, and I will explore them to the fullest. When raping and pillaging of a natural resource versus lawful personal take is agreed on, then can we work out some meaningful laws. But to pay someone to cross anothers palm is low. In my opinion.
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Todd Hughes

We used a Lobbyist in Louisiana in 1986. She did a very fine job of talking to legislators and keeping us informed. What you guys need to do is establish a focal leadership and a plan that would include getting a Lobbyist involved. You can probably get some good results for less than $5000. Get the Herp Societies and Texas Breeders involved. After this support is established ask for help both financially and involvement from Societies and Breeders in other states. They have either been through it or will go through this grab of personal freedoms and rights by the state legislature. I know that Louisiana has written to the Texas legislature in support of you but we could do more if there was a focus and a plan. ~Bill Watts~

Mike I know you from California, I purchased Angel Island Chucks form you many, many moons ago.... So here's my take (I'm a nobody in the scheme fo things here in Texas, but here is the one thing that I have or take issue about this subject. Mike is right in a sense, I happen to ascribe to the non lobbyist approach, but hey if you hire someone, you should set the ground rules as far as what you want from them. Lobbyists indeed are the way government and politics works in the U.s., how they work within the system takes on many different approaches with different organizations and issues.. Now that being said--let me point something out here,and I am not saying anything new here but you all are camping out on the roadside collection, why don't you persue states rights and the fact there is a violation of the citizens rights her in Texas with this law as it sets at the moment. You could get legal counsel to take this on, even a young bright intern looking to make a name on your behalf, the fact of the matter you all pay taxes for the roads, You have umpteen years of precedence set as to how and what was legal. The horned lizard program is of non effect, and other issues come into play not missing all the arguments about the amount of monies spent in far away rural towns on week ends. Your safety record over those years it in the 95% percentile, so I don't understand why someone hasn't approached this from states and citizens rights. If you have a law that applies, then not only should it apply to us,but any other group that would use the roads etc. etc. The fact of the matter it seems to me you have
every good reason to approach this from another angle. Finally and I am a little sheepish in asking the question, did anyone finally actually meet with Harvey face to face, and if so it is obvious what the results were. but if not then why not? Also I haven't seen any proposals that have been put together as to how the lizards and snake situation could be run and what is reasonable form a lizard and snake organization(s)on behalf of the hobbyists and herpers in Texas? You have to have something to propose and sorry if I have missed all this but I don't need you all to start sending me links, I just want to know that some of these ideas have been explored up to this point, then I have a better idea so how my own involvement in this will take shape.

So my last point behind the scenes there could be any number of things taking place, if I was joe average herper how do I know whats going on, what the issues are, and how can i get involved.
My point is "we" all need some better vehicles in approaching the Texas public and hobbyists with this issue, or they just don't know, we know we have the numbers but how do you get them involved? O.k. I'll shut up, and Mike good to here from you, mike has a lot of experience in these areas so I wouldn't throw out the baby with the bath water, he didn't post because he doesn't care, if it has happened here there will be other states that this will spread too. You just wait....
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www.phrynosoma.org

I went to meet Hilderbran and he did not show up, instead he sent Todd and Theresa.

Yes we are approaching this from all angles, including civil rights issues.

Best way to get involved, join HCU.
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http://www.hcu-tx.org
http://www.kingsnake.com/mexicana/
http://www.joeforks.com

When you meet with these folks, stress three things:
1) The reptile business in Texas is a multi-million dollar idustry that pays taxes.
2) There are many families in Texas that have raised reptiles as a hobby for generations and aren't going to obey this law. Hundreds of grandmothers will become criminals.
3) This law is an erosion of Rights. How far is it going to go?
~Bill Watts~ Exec. Director, Exotic Pet Owners Association.

I'm afraid most of you still believe in the premise that you can talk sense into these people. All it does is feed their ego. They will use any attempt to be reasonable on your part against you in a heart beat. I've had to deal with these kind of people for more than 30 years and I can tell you that they are truely scum. They have no morals and will do or say anything to win. If you are really going to try to fight them, the first thing you need to do is to really understand the kind of people your dealing with.Talk to those of us who have beaten them and their kind before. Not in this forum but on the phone or by email. Your clock is ticking and only you can stop it. Everything you do will reflect on the rest of the herp community.
Michael Luhrs

Mike Luhrs is absolutely right. Aaron, you are nothing but a naive neophyte. Started collecting Graybands in '96. I was out there looking for them in 1970. Give me a break. I've been at it since the 1960's.
Just last year we were sandbagged by a ton of bad science when the Commissioners, with more herp blood on their hands than all herpers combined, made hobbyists the fall guy in the name of conservation. The Commissioner's are huge land owners, billionaires, in fact!!! How did they make their money? Land development, automobiles, highways, parking lots, etc. Talk about perverted justice. The whole issue was driven in the press by the inhumanity of sending our turtle fauna to China for the Chop Stick Meat Market. Who got a free pass? The Chop Stick Turtle Meat Market got a free pass. That's who. Why? Because they both speak the same language. Money talks. Birds of a feather. Full speed ahead. Business as usual.
Why did that coterie of College Professors fall in line and peddle all that bad science on the Commissioner's behalf? Just a bunch of cronies pandering for their grant money. You see, some people believe only they have a right to observe, study, enjoy, and appreciate nature -- those aloof academic gentry for lack of a better term. They know better than we do. Of course, they do. Just ask them. The "I'm smarter than you. I'll decide what's best" mentality.
my 2 cents
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

No need to name call and how long you have been collecting graybands has absolutly nothing to do with the legal side of it.
If you read my posts carefully you should see that I didn't disagree with Mr. Luhrs. I simply said money is not the only tool we have to fight this. For one thing we don't have much of it, compared to many other special intrests, so if it's all we rely on... if all we do is say hey donate some money... well we may not get enough to garner any kind of pull with these politicians. If we use ALL our tools; letters, emails, phonecalls, continued presence in the politicians and wildlife agencies daily lives in addition to money, we have a better chance. All I am saying is we need to do more than throw money at the problem. It will take ALL of us who care and all of us to us ALL our tools.

Your theory that it is some old grudges held by certain senior TP&W officials is nonsense...you heard stories...is rediculous...
It's all about money and control.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

The large boid and venomous laws and the catering to turtle collecters is about money for sure. I was talking specificly about the roadhunting ban. There are most certaily long held grudges and egos that are coming into play there. It is fine to say let's all donate money but I will say it again, we need to use all our tools. Money is not as powerful, and the people not so weak, as you think. Our dollars will go alot further with participation by the people. Who do you suggest we give our money to? Without an answer to that you're just spouting off.