Reptile & Amphibian Forums

OK, I thought I'd ask a new one for you guys. Outside of the country east of Marathon (which doesn't count because there's so much rock below ground!), has anyone found alternas in areas that are more than a few hundred meters from rocky slopes, ledges, boulder piles, -- the usual habitat we associate with them? Have there been any found out in creosote flats or out in the barren in-between space north of the County Rd north of Linda Vista on 118, for example? Just curious. I figure they must get lost once in a while...

Cheers,
HW

I can tell you that a person within the last 2 years observed a small male Alterna about 30-40 miles west of Sanderson in the flats. Nice light Alterna phase... Person who found it is very reputable.

Best Wishes,

SXO792

>>I can tell you that a person within the last 2 years observed a small male Alterna about 30-40 miles west of Sanderson in the flats. Nice light Alterna phase... Person who found it is very reputable.
>>
>>Best Wishes,
>>
>>SXO792

I wouldn't even question that one. There have been DOR's right there and the mountains are less than 100 yards off the point. That is a pretty good mountain pass you make leading up to lemon's gap.
I'd cruise that and feel good about my chances (if it were legal to cruise that anyway).
-----
http://www.hcu-tx.org
http://www.kingsnake.com/mexicana/
http://www.joeforks.com

Henry,
The most curious museum record I have is Lobo at hwy 90. Pretty flat for a good ways right there. Of course there is great habitat a ways to the west, but it is a good ways.

There are probably dozens of records just a few hundred yards into the flats. Incidentally all of those (those that I know the sex of) are males. Makes sense.

I found a male at the 12.2 west of Langtry picnic area - that's a good ways into the flats but I really don't view it as "unusual".
-----
http://www.hcu-tx.org
http://www.kingsnake.com/mexicana/
http://www.joeforks.com

The wonder is why isn't there a ton of records in the flats all over the Chihuahuan Desert. Obviously there are millions of alterna in the flats right now, otherwise there is no way that the species could populate the entire Chihuahuan Desert with alterna, from Nuevo Leon to New Mexico, and from Rocksprings to Durango. Think about it.
-----
http://www.hcu-tx.org
http://www.kingsnake.com/mexicana/
http://www.joeforks.com

I found a nice light phase DOR many years ago on 90 in the flats between Comstock and Del Rio. I went back during daylight to see where it might have come from. No cuts or rocks in sight. There were some shallow arroyos near by though. I thought it might have been washed down from somewhere. Occasionally in California many years ago an occasional Zonata would turn up near sea level. Some theorized that they may have "washed" down from the higher elevations. All "jive" theory though. Don't really know for sure. Maybe someday when we start tagging a few animals we'll find out!

Stu

moons ago george and i found a blairs crawling right at the old trash cans on 90 east of comstock...i think its the border patrol check point now.....we also fopund several between that west langtry picnic area and dryden which i think is all flat.....joe smacked the nail right on the head ...they are all over the place out there

I, too have heard of a number of them on the Stockton Plateau -- the whole limestone formation that encompasses so much of the "blairi" country at the eastern half of the range in Texas (here's a great map of the formation: http://www.utexas.edu/tmm/sponsored_sites/tss/images/tk1.gif ). None of the cases there surprise me very much because every hole that heads underground there goes into that rock formation -- its like mountains underground. That geological situation changes, however in the Bend country and it is there that I am most curious. I've personally found 5 alterna in the flats between rocky outcrops -- but none of those animals were more than several hundred meters from SOME rock-strewn areas. I'm wondering if anyone has ever found one (maybe a DOR) halfway between Marfa and Valentine, for example.

This is really a question of how restricted is the species to rocky habitat or perhaps more specifically, habitat with lots of places to crawl around without being out in the open. Joe's point that they must be out in the flats else they would not be in the mountains or rocky areas on either side of the flats may not be correct for the ranges outside the limestone country. It is possible that the range today is relic -- a holdover from past times with different climatic conditions with occasional crossovers since then from wandering males. If nobody has ever spotted one between the ranges in west Texas east of Marathon, that would support this perspective. The best way to disprove this idea would be if there's been a few females found out in the flats.

Regardless, the cases you guys are mentioning east of Marathon are interesting and certainly demonstrate their wide range in that country. Time to do some radiotelemetry on these guys!

Cheers,
HW

>>>>It is possible that the range today is relic -- a holdover from past times with different climatic conditions with occasional crossovers since then from wandering males.

More than likely, you are right on it there. But also, yes there are a few unpublished records from creosote flats and a two new records from grasslands.

My point was more of an idea that they don't sit still, they are still expanding into any environment in which they can survive. There is a huge collecting bias there, who hunts grasslands and creosote flats for alterna?

>>>>>If nobody has ever spotted one between the ranges in west Texas east of Marathon, that would support this perspective. The best way to disprove this idea would be if there's been a few females found out in the flats.

17 miles east of marathon, is the first record east, after that there are many in between lemon's gap and sanderson.

>>
>>Regardless, the cases you guys are mentioning east of Marathon are interesting and certainly demonstrate their wide range in that country. Time to do some radiotelemetry on these guys!
>>
>>Cheers,
>>HW

The Lobo record is not far from Valentine, just a few miles north.
-----
http://www.hcu-tx.org
http://www.kingsnake.com/mexicana/
http://www.joeforks.com

Obviously, they are not suited to burrowing like a milk snake, or hognose. They are crevice dwellers which is why most of the locals are rocky outcrops. but they DO leave the confines of the rocky outcrops. The food source is there, the question is whether or not the other elements critical to survival are there, and how long they can survive there.

Most every time some one flips any mexicana species, it's in a rock on rock situation. (not every time, just mostly).

I think there are plenty of places away from cuts and mountains where they can survive, live and breed, but I think the presence of rock is critical.

In the places I mentioned where there are new records from grassland and creosote flat, there is an abundance of rock associated. IMO that's what you have to look for if you want to find alterna away from cuts and mountains.
-----
http://www.hcu-tx.org
http://www.kingsnake.com/mexicana/
http://www.joeforks.com

That sounds right to me, Joe. What did the Lobo animal look like? That's a real interesting locality. -HW

I think Joe is right, but one more thing to add is that most collectors are focusing their efforts in what is considered the best habitat. With collectors spenting less time in the flats less animals will be discovered in these regions.

I found an alterna this past year that was hit, but still moving in a very flat region. I was looking for milksnakes. A real eye opening sight. Yes Joe it was a young male.

Adam Sweetman