Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello friends
I was wondering since spring is coming soon *sigh* ok in a few months... what is the best way and products to treat new w/c's?
I'm looking for advice on meds for worming and parasites what ever else you think they would need. I know you may not be able to giving dosing instructions here so you could PM me if you like.
Thanks So Much
Chris
Link

I think the best way is to do stool samples and only treat what needs to be treated. Panacure, Baytril, amakacin (sp?), droncit, and other drugs can be pretty hard on snakes.

THat's just me though, your mileage may vary.
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http://www.hcu-tx.org
http://www.kingsnake.com/mexicana/
http://www.joeforks.com

Well The problems with that is... no vets around me...also I havent owned a microscope since I had a chem set in elemenry school lol. I wouldn't even know what to look for in a sample.
Thanks!!!
Chris
Link

>>Well The problems with that is... no vets around me...also I havent owned a microscope since I had a chem set in elemenry school lol. I wouldn't even know what to look for in a sample.
>>Thanks!!!
>>Chris
>>Link

Worse than that, it get's expensive. We can dig up the dosages and indications for you. I'll check back tomorrow and see if someone supplied them or not, if not I'll see what I can find.
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http://www.hcu-tx.org
http://www.kingsnake.com/mexicana/
http://www.joeforks.com

What gets expensive? And btw you photos on your website are BEAUTIFUL I'm a artsy guy, and I love your pics!!!
Thanks for your time

Chris
Link

Mostly the Vet bills! The meds aren't too bad.

Thanks for the compliment! I still have a lot of work to do (photos to add) but I appreciate the feedback.

Best
Joe
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http://www.hcu-tx.org
http://www.kingsnake.com/mexicana/
http://www.joeforks.com

You can find more info on these drugs with a google search - I just picked out some links for you.

Disclaimer, I'm not a vet, and I don't play one on the internet I think Nathan Wells over on the Milksnake Forum is Veterinary assistant

Droncit (see page 33 for Indications and Dosage:
[url]http://www.animalhealth.bayerhealthcare.com/fileadmin/media/ah/droncit.pdf{/url]

Tylosin (Tylan): www.tylosin.com/

Amakacin: (hard on the kidneys!) www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/amikacin.htm

Baytril: www.baytril.com/15/Other_Animals.htm

Panacur (Fenbendazole) : ratguide.com/meds/antiinfectives/fenbendazole.php
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http://www.hcu-tx.org
http://www.kingsnake.com/mexicana/
http://www.joeforks.com

I have had some flukes passed or crawl out in the water bowl with mostly the speckleds I have caught. They are continuing to feed normally for me so far, I bumped the temps on one side of the cage.
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Todd Hughes

Do not fix what is not broken. Reptiles always carry parasites. Their presense does not indicate ill health. They should not be treated for something that is a normal part of their life.

If your or natures adverse conditions causes their natural balance to tilt and the parasites bloom and compromise the health of the animal. Then a Vet should be called or at least consulted. Until you the keeper understands what and when to do something.

The point I seen to have a hard time making is, snakes SHOULD not be treated for something that does not bother them. The Keepers should instead, work on supporting the ability of the snakes to build and keep and NORMAL immune system. Which by the way is totally lacking on these forums.

In my opinion for decades of field and captive work, a wide temp range is keep to building and keeping the immune system functioning at its best. A narrow temp range is common on these forums and is at best a balancing act between failure and success.

The problem with links to how to use these meds is, they are like bullets and your handing them to folks that do not know what to shoot or when to shoot. They tend to keep shooting healthy snakes.

My approach as always been, keep the snakes healthy and put the gun away. Its worked extremely well for many of decades. Cheers

>> The problem with links to how to use these meds is, they are like bullets and your handing them to folks that do not know what to shoot or when to shoot. They tend to keep shooting healthy snakes.

Nope Frank - I gave him links to information as to HOW the bullets work. If I send him the Meds, then I give him the bullets.

I told him in my first post to get stool samples and treat what needs to be treated. That's what I do, so you're preaching to the choir.
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http://www.hcu-tx.org
http://www.kingsnake.com/mexicana/
http://www.joeforks.com

The information I provided will encourage him to research. The INDICATIONS are critical to PART of understanding what is going on with a sick snake. If you want to argue that my post is doing more harm than good, fine, we can go another 30 or 50 posts and settle nothing.

>>http://www.hcu-tx.org
>>http://www.kingsnake.com/mexicana/
>>http://www.joeforks.com
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http://www.hcu-tx.org
http://www.kingsnake.com/mexicana/
http://www.joeforks.com

Joe, after reading what Chris wrote I checked out your photos and you do have some serious photo skills. I'd like to have a wall calender with some of your photos. No BS. Randy W.

I have to agree that Joe takes amazing photos!! True artwork in my opinion.. I am very jealous of his skills!

~ Mike Russo

you guys are too nice... I was all ready to blasted for my post, you never know on these forums! LOL

Best
Joe
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http://www.hcu-tx.org
http://www.kingsnake.com/mexicana/
http://www.joeforks.com

You need to leave the North move to the South (Florida) than you will have Spring Dec to feb and summer the other months .

I agree the pics are great this is my favorite

http://www.joeforks.com/page15.html

If I was a wild animal would want to live there

One day I sat on one of those boulders and watched a pair of red ear sliders courting. the male would follow the female around in the water and bite her on the front limb and drag her into deep water - I think he was shy. amazing animals in that canyon - green kingfishers, texas cichlids, alligator gar, largemouth bass, carp, snakes out the wazoo. I don't have permission to get down there anymore, too bad.
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http://www.hcu-tx.org
http://www.kingsnake.com/mexicana/
http://www.joeforks.com

My advice is, do not fix what's not broke. If a wild caught snake is healthy, then allow it to stay healthy. That is far more important then treating it for what does not hurt it.

Parasites are NORMAL with wild healthy reptiles, they get them with every meal. And so is a normal assortment of bacteria. Yet, they are still in the vast majority of cases, perfectly healthy.

I think our task as keepers, is to provide conditions that allow them to STAY healthy. (support the immune system)

The treating of healthy animals, is again what I mentioned below, "stupid". You should treat sick animals, not healthy animals. So yes, if you catch a sick individual, then by all means treat it. But to treat a healthy animal thats not sick. YES, that really is stupid. All you have to do is read that sentence over and over to yourself. you know, to treat a healthy animal.

Your task is simply, all you have to do is make a judgement call. Is this thing sick or healthy. Easy enough. Cheers

FR,
What about w/c green ratsnakes? I have never heard of one surviving without getting a full spectrum of treatments.
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ÌÏËÙÍ ËÁÂE!

Trees don't grow on money either.

Sorry but they are no problem. I first bred them in 75(first captive breeding I believe) and off and on including the last two years. All without EVER treating one single individual.

The main concern with Greenrat snakes is, THEY DO NOT TOLERATE hibernation(The common stupid captive type). They are a very cold loving species and are active in the coldest months and feed thruout the winter. No, they do not feed like most snakes in the summer, but they "SEEM" to require four or five feedings during a normal winter. We let the cage get as cold as any, but always allow a hot spot for the CHOICE of the individual snake.

Again, this is a good case for folks trying to fix what is not broken and replace it with something that is broken.

You just something fun to think about, a greenrat being a RATSNAKE, I have to wonder why it only occurs in places with warm winters. Kinda odd, as many common ratsnakes(and boy are greenrats common) can really tolerate cold winters. A funny thought, they love cold, but do not occur where it gets cold. Hmmmmmmmmm I must dwell on that. Oh wait, maybe you folks must dwell on that. It appears I already have.

If you wish, I can post any number of greenrat pics(in the field) Cheers

p.s. the main problem is, most collectors without intimate knowledge of greenrats, often commonly find subordinate males, you know skinny, small, full of all manner of pathogens. And think they are normal. Which by the way is the most common accidental find.

Please post the pics.

And I agree. If you keep a snake correctly, there is no need to treat it for parasites. I believe it causes more harm than good.

I have known people who treated their W/C Green Rats and had more problems than those who didn't.

On a side note, FR, has it been your experience that Chiricahuas triaspis and pyros carry a heavier parasite load than other localities, as is often said?
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Diego

Green rats have one of the largest ranges of the North American Ratsnakes, and like Frank says common throughout the range,
from south of Tucson all the way to Costa Rica.
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http://www.hcu-tx.org
http://www.kingsnake.com/mexicana/
http://www.joeforks.com

when i had and bred triaspis years ago i hibernated them in a closet downstairs between 50-55 with no problems, AND GOT GOOD CLUTCHES. one year i made stupid mistake of putting them in garage which dropped to mid 40's now and then, next to my lampropeltis. came out of hibernation and both adult females kicked in 2 weeks. these were wild caught juvis or w.c.hatchlings raised up to adults. the last big w.c. female i kept was totally infected with parasites as have other w.c. adults ive seen. if i ever kept them again, i would start with juvis or hatchlings. with triaspis too hot temps are bad and too cold is bad, (but it does snow where there found now and then!) these are just MY personal opinions. they are in my back yard now so i look, take a pic, and send them on there way.

I understand the its not broke don't fix it thing. I have caught and keep ton's of Eastern Milks, Foxsnakes, Northern Water snakes etc in years past... without treating them and had no problems. Of course the were keep in well away from my captive breds. So is that what your saying? That "you dont need to treat them aslong as they stay healthy but keep them away from your captive breds" ? Thanks guys and girls
Chris

Link

pretty much. most all wild snakes have parasite loads. It's the plastic box thing and sub-optimal conditions of captivity. That is what stresses the animals and then they can no longer deal with the parasites (of course that's a generalization)
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http://www.hcu-tx.org
http://www.kingsnake.com/mexicana/
http://www.joeforks.com

When a friend took me collecting in Pender County N.C. I was uncomfortable with having W/C in my colection but as FR told me back then when I inquired, they were just fine as long as I treated them well. Scott Koontz who is a nice guy and works with a lot of exceptional E.Kings told me the same thing.

Bob.

I'm a big fan of catching my own animals, when ever possible.

Nice King!
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http://www.hcu-tx.org
http://www.kingsnake.com/mexicana/
http://www.joeforks.com

Then again there is the risk of introducing pathogens and or parasites to which the rest of your collection which may or may not have a natural ability to handle them. Unless you follow VERY strict protocols, movement of protozoa, bacteria and viruses around your collection should be considered a given.

In my humble opinion a prophylactic dosings of panacure and metrodiazonal (sp) along with a 90 quarantine may not be absolutely necessary but they are prudent and helpful. It's an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure kind of thing. That said, Frank is right about maintaining conditions conducive to good health. All the pretreatment in the world isn't going to do any good if you pay no attention to basic environmental needs.

keeping a clean cage, and keeping the snakes separate from one another?

let it go, Howie, you won!LOL!
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Todd Hughes

lol...sorry bro. it went from somewhat of a crusade to good fun somewhere down that thread. hard to let go of a good thing---ESPECIALLY when you know you've won. now if the giants can do the same thing sunday there will be no stopping me.

Don't count on that one Howie.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

I wuz gonna say.......well, live it up while you can Howie!
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Todd Hughes

hey guys, cant help it i've lived and died(mostly died) with the giants since the late 50s when YA Tittle was QB and Frank Gifford was playing,ans Sam Huff was knocking heads off at linebacker. besides they do have a shot at the upset and I would say to you, don't count them out just yet. the great thing is if they lose it will be to an undefeated team, arguably one of the best ever, so you see it's a win-win even if they dont get to the mountaintop.