Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Over the last couple of days I have seen several references to an animal being het for bloodred. I thought that bloodred was not a simple recessive trait but rather the result of generations of selective breeding. I have never really been into bloodreds so it is entirely possible that I have just misunderstood their genetics but can an animal be truly het for bloodred in the strictest sense of the word? Just curious. Thanks for the help.

Rob

A controversial topic to say the least! I think most people would agree that "diffused" is a simple recessive genetic trait. This means the blotches on the sides of the snake disappear or are "dilluted."

The "red" part does not appear to work that way. Rather it's a selectively bred trait.

So I would say an animal cannot be het for bloodred. It can be het for diffused though.

What would happen if a bloodred were bred to a normal? The offspring would be normally patterned, but het for diffused. The offspring would be varying degrees of red. By breeding the reddest babies togather, you'd get 25% that would be bloodreds.

Not everybody agrees on this, but that's the way I see it.

Tim

Third Eye

....that is very helpful. As I said, it was really just a curiosity for me. I also seem to remember (way back when) that some people thought that bloodreds were genetically weak tended to be problematic (a vague term, I know). Is that still the case? Thanks again.

Rob

>>A controversial topic to say the least! I think most people would agree that "diffused" is a simple recessive genetic trait. This means the blotches on the sides of the snake disappear or are "dilluted."
>>
>>The "red" part does not appear to work that way. Rather it's a selectively bred trait.
>>
>>So I would say an animal cannot be het for bloodred. It can be het for diffused though.
>>
>>What would happen if a bloodred were bred to a normal? The offspring would be normally patterned, but het for diffused. The offspring would be varying degrees of red. By breeding the reddest babies togather, you'd get 25% that would be bloodreds.
>>
>>Not everybody agrees on this, but that's the way I see it.
>>
>>Tim
>>
>>Third Eye

Yes, they have been genetically weak. The reason being, since there's no such thing as "hets" they were inbred to the point of being genetically weakened.

After years of outcrossing to strengthen the line, their genetics are better, but the deep red coloration that gives this snake its name has for the most part been lost and replaced with red-orange.

Some people prefer the brighter coloration, while others long for the dark red color from "back in the day."

Tim

Tim go check the saly forum.
Jeff
-----
1.0 pastel ball python
0.1 mojave ball python
0.1 normal ball python
0.2 3-toed box turtles
2.3 eastern box turtles
0.0.5 3-striped mud turtle
1.0 northern diamondback terrapin
2.1 tiger salamander
1.1 red-sided garter
1.0 anerythristic red-sided garter
1.1 Iowa snow plains garter
1.1 Het butter stripe cornsnake
0.1 anerythristic motley cornsnake

Thanks you very much, Jeff. I appreciate the kind words!

Tim

Most today are not quite what they were years back, some of this is good,...some of it maybe not so good. I'm sure a few people have tried to keep some of the lines as genetically original as possible though. R.Z. comes to mind, that is probably still doing this.

~Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

First, let me address something that I want everyone to think about. If you have not bred bloodreds (remember this is the original name and I'm old fashioned about accepting change) AND if YOU personally have experienced frailties in the genetics of your line of bloodreds, it's your perrogative to report that to everyone. If you do that, PLEASE, tell them that your comments are a result of YOUR personal experience with them and does not necessarily reflect a trend within the mutation. I say this because my bloods are about as fertile and virile as any other morph I have. Over 15 years ago, there were fertility issues and problems getting babies to eat. As a family of corns, my baby bloods eat as well (if not better) than most corns out there. They are NOT weak. Fertility? What can I say? I get 80-100% fertility in all my bloodred projects. That's precisely the efficacy I expect from ANY corn snake project. So, before addressing your question, let me say that I want people to stop parroting what they read and hear, without doing some research. My success with this line is the same as the success my competitors and associates are experiencing. To say that bloods are problematic is like saying you're a bed wetter. Perhaps you wet your bed as a child, but you surely do not do that now. Hence, you are no longer a bed wetter, so you probably omit that item on your bio and your resume. As a race of corns, bloodreds are no longer problematic. Perhaps someone's are, but generally speaking, they are not weak by any physical or genetic standard.
Note: I'm not pointing at Tim here. He's a valuable asset to this forum and I enjoy reading his posts.

Now, are they simple recessive? Obviously, there's nothing simple about them. This is the main reason the F1 outcrosses of bloods used to be called "outcrossed bloods". If you breed an albino corn to a normal corn, you get all normals. None of them show any markers for carrying the amel gene. That's how a simple recessive works. Since some (or most) of the F1s from pairing a bloodred (again I'm using the name they were originally called, regardless of coloration) show SOME signs of being like their bloodred parent, we used to call them outcrossed bloods. Obviously, this is lame, but figuring out exactly what genetic mechanics are in this snake has not been easy. Common perception today (in lieu of more extensive breeding trials) is that they are some form of dominant mutation. Some say bloodred is a variable or incomplete dominant gene. Unless another gene is working in concert to create the look of a bloodred (diffused) corn, this is the best label I can think of to describe the function of this mutation. SO, at this time, I'd have to call it incomplete dominant. That is, until more evidence is offered that best describes what's going on with this unpredictable race of corn.

Why does the web site for South Mountain Reptiles still call the F1 outcrosses HETS? I need to change that, but it would require that I offer two or three forms of bloods. One form is identical to a wild-caught normal corn. You see, if incomplete dominance is truly what's going on, I should be able to sell every baby from a bloodred X amel pairing, as a bloodred; even if they look completely normal. Who's going to buy those? Not me. I want the ones that grow up to be like the pictures we see out there. SO, you can see that I have a problem calling a normal looking corn a bloodred OR calling one that has half the bloodred looks, a PURE BLOODRED. This begs the question, "What do we call the ones that don't look good?". Grade "B" bloods? I know it's not correct to call them hets, but by doing so and charging less than bloodred prices, my customers get a snake that is capable of producing stunning bloodreds. If I don't figure out what to call those other than "het" (which of course, they really are not), I'm faced with two options. Fraudulently sell them as normal corns, even though they have some blood markers and really are more than just normals OR euthanizing them because they do not neatly fit into a known morph classification. It's almost embarrassing to call them hets when it appears that they are not, but what would I call them? Have two grades? Three grades? Grade A bloods for the good ones, Grade B for the halfway looking ones and Grade C for the ones that have NO bloodred markers??? That's not practical either. Suggestions?

In conclusion, let me remind you that people that read this forum (and others) tend to believe most of what they read. If they read that bloodreds are frail, the morph undeservingly gets a bad rap, and isn't properly marketed and propagated. Me, I can't help but notice that the more we try to change the color or pattern of bloods, the more we strengthen the genetic integrity of the mutation. I have not seen a lack of genetic integrity in this line for over 15 years. Perhaps it's because I was on a mission to infuse this mutation with other colors and patterns, and in the process, I diluted inferiorities in the line. If that is the case, I'm in good company, because many of my colleagues report to me that their bloodred lines are also superior to other allegedly strong lines.
South Mountain Reptiles

Ten years ago I had an adult male bloodred. He bred several females and each and every one of them had infertile eggs. A couple years later that male died at 5 years of age. The females that he bred were later bred by non-bloodred males in future years and produced many fertile offspring.

Three years ago I took a female bloodred on a breeding loan. It laid eggs (which were mostly fertile) and then promptly died.

It is well documented that historically bloodreds are weak and I think that it is fair to mention this in posts.

This year I hope to breed Love line bloodreds and am interested to see what the outcome is.

Tim

...let me explain my first venture into bloodreds.

Went to the Orlando show back in the early 90s. Bought a pair of bloods. Bred the male to the female the first year and got all slugs. Bred them together the second year, , , all slugs. Okay, here comes the best part. The third year, I still couldn't smell the coffee, so I bred the male to her again AND to three other non bloodred females. ALL slugs. Duh. Three or four wasted years, and all because I had an extremely rare morph that I just had to hold faith in. If I could have sued that male for felonously eating my mice, with no intentions of compensation, I would. Finally, after three years of that CRAP, I bred the female to another male and she did fine. She's still here, but that male disappeared. I think I refuse to tell me what I did with him, but I likely sold it to someone as a pet. Heck, HE may be the reason we're hearing so much negativity about that line. Typhoid Bob, the infamous sterile bloodred. Perhaps he's changed hands a dozen times out there and each person gets the same black eye I did. I may have shot myself in the foot for letting that crook outta my sight. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
South Mountain Reptiles

I'll start at the beginning getting my first bloodred on an accident. I have never posted this, and I hope there are no bad feelings. My female was Tim's loaner. She was large female that ate medium size rats, she was a killer feeder. Yup she did the old dirt dive shortly after her first clutch. I NEVER had bad feeling about that as I know how reptiles can be, and Tim is a top notch breed. PERIOD!

But, the babies I took, were hard to get to feed. I had to tease feed them all. Then all became good feeders that I ignorantly sold off. NOW, I will address this as I post it. This DOES NOT mean they all have this trait, as I've had baby bloods that are killer feeders too. It's what happened in one instance. Also the colors on the babies were all over the place. I wish I knew then what I know now, as I would ahve kept all the top looking females.

I now have one of her outcrosses, for the lack of better words, she is a picky eater and spotty and undersized for her age. A blood red issue?, or something with just that lineage? or a cause of the pairing? To small a section to make a determination. IMHO.

I now have a terrible issue with a female blood. I dropped $175 for her. I was hungry for a more adult female. At the time I had 1 male bloodred in my entire collection. In a large tub on a wire rack on heat tape for 2 years. My biostat read 87 degrees. I never checked inside temps. Now I get this slightly undersized female, and a few babies from someone else. 4 snakes burp meals!!! I actually check temps and it was 95 or more. Being in smaller tubs I guess they have less range. I correct my temps, and 1 of the 2 babies is now great, 1 spotty. The outcross is doing well but picky, but I think by her size she was probably always that way. My $175 investment is terrible. Now we already had long posts about crypto, but my wife brought up I was watching this snake for over 6 months maybe 9 at the show and she always looked ok, not massive, but ok. Obviously she was eating, and the guy is an ok guy. I seriously think it is my fault. I know I am verbose and even a bit outspoken, but if I screw up I admit it, what ever it may be. I like honesty.

So, I enter in that if I did something wrong, GASP,, maybe someone else did too. We've all made mistakes big and small. But some people may be afraid as a newbie or oldies to post I killed my bloodred as an error, so it gets attention as "those bad bloodred genes again"

My conclusion: Inconclusion!!!, and most peoples are as well, as it is a small sample of the line we each have. It maybe as simple as in most bloodreds in (whatever city) come from a similar line, that may have issues. So that area does. That's is speculation on my part. But most of us, me at the bottom, can not label a "true conclusion" on any snake. people at it the longest, and breed the most of a slect morph have the best "ideas" IMHOOC

I can say, I have/had bloods that killer eaters, and picky ones. But I also know a "goober" that has 2 creamcicle corns, breeds them every year, can not get them to eat and hands them to us. We tell him to STOP breeding them. I use this example on purpose as creams are noted for hybrid vigor, and all I've seen never refuse a meal. Except his.

A forum is a tough place to whittle out these issues. I'm sure in person, thoughts would be clearer, and ideas collects to make some better quasi-conclusions.

Bloods are a great snake, Tim has a great philosophy, don't breed snakes with bad traits.

But for god sakes, people must educate themselves too. To many people jump on the web read 2 articles, buy 2 snakes and they are breeders.

OK, with all those words have to come pics. Sorry same pics for the most part. I don't take pics naerly s much as I should.
First female I spoke of. She's still my favorite, but my male is getting close with his extreme attitude.

Male last summer. He's grown and heavier. NOT fat, just BIG.

Same male, he will coil up like a cobra, and rattle his tail if you walk past his tub. Not what I call a normal trait of any corn, I just want his babies to eat like him.

One of the babies. Not super bloods, and now they are brighter and really look more okeetee, but starting to diffuse it seems.

Big male again, in normal postion with lid off.

Last blood, my real trouble case.

Mystery snake, for hybrid Christmas snakes!!!! OK OK just kidding.

OK one for the URL link, me and wifey to be at Case Western Reserve Univ. Please note the circa 1978 Parma Pets Tee Shirt!

-----
Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com

First, thank you for the detailed explanation, I truly do appreciate the information and, even more so, appreciate the time that you and others spend on the forums.

Second, let me just be clear that I was in no way intending to defile the bloodred line, in general or anyone's line in particular. I was simply trying to get a better understanding of their genetics based on what I remembered from 10 or so years ago. I should also point out that I have not kept corns for about 10 years and only recently have I begun paying attention again to what is going on in the cornsnake world. This was the reason for my second question because, as you said, long ago (when I was paying attention more closely) there were reported issues with the bloodred morph.

I apologize if the intent of my questions was unclear and if I offended you, or anyone else working with bloodreds. I was simply trying to gather some information as I make my way back into the cornsnake realm.

Thanks again for the information and the time you spend here, I appreciate both.

Rob

P.S. - I WAS a bedwetter and, you're right, I have since removed that from my resume.

In NO way was I thinking you were slamming the morph. Not at all. I just wanted to take the op to tell folks there is a lot of bad information about them out there that is unjustified. We all tend to repeat what we hear, even if we don't research the information. It's human nature.

Yeah, I'm sure my bed wasn't always dry in the mornings when I was a neonate, but until now, I too never admitted that was in my past. lol.

Thanx.
South Mountain Reptiles

although it has been very rare. I remember one male, a beautiful bubblegum snow, that sired only slugs no matter which female he bred. And a really nice creamsicle female that never produced a good egg with 3 different males. There was one other female that never produced - I believe it was an alb. okeetee. But I never personally had a sterile blood, although I certainly believe they exist.

Even way back in the '80s, when I got my original bloodreds from Eddie Leach, I didn't find fertility issues with the line I worked with. But they did tend to produce huge clutches of tiny eggs that hatched into tiny snakes that were difficult to get started. That was a hallmark of the morph for many years in my collection, until they were sufficiently outcrossed with other colors / morphs so that their eggs and babies became just like any other corns. The one exception was my pewter line - even the bigger babies were often problematical feeders. I finally let that line die out and have infused charcoal blood from other lines into my bloods.

I think every long time breeder will know the pros and cons of their own lines, no matter what the morph, or even the species.

Once a morph has been around long enough for lots of breeders to "improve" their own lines to their liking, I doubt that it will be easy to make any generalization cover all (or most) of the various bloodlines being worked on by all of the US breeders, let alone breeders all over the world. That is, except for some positive points that most breeders would agree upon as being a desirable outcome to strive for, such as those concerning generally accepted morph appearance, good health, easy feeding, etc.

are a hot topic.

And many thanks to people with long experiences and take the time to post here.

I did not name name so I did not leave people out.

But many thanks.
-----
Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com