Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I just got a female from a guy that had her housed with a male. I but her in with one of my breeders and I've been witnessing copulation for the last 2 days...

How long should it be before I start seeing her getting plump?

I'm asking b/c she's already looking fatter than she did 2 days ago, and she's only been in with my male for about 3 days.

I'm hoping she isn't gravid from the other male she was with.

The first male a female breeds is usually the one that fathers the clutch, with multiple paternity clutches happening once in a while.
She may be building follicles, which is why she looks fatter, or she could be building up to ovulation. If by tomorrow she looks like she swallowed a small football, then she is ovulating and chances are the other male is the father. If she just looks a bit pudgier, then she is likely building follicles, and your male may still have a chance.

Good luck!

~jenny
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"Polysyllabism in no way insures that what you're saying is actually worth being heard." - Blake (an e-friend of mine)

"I have never made but one prayer to god, a very short one: "O lord, make my enemies ridiculous." And he granted it." - Voltaire

I keep pretty detailed records of our snakes, especially during breeding. I also tend to run more than one co-dom male through a female during breeding. Last year 17% of our clutches had more than 1 co-dom represetned in the hatchlings. In addition, 54% of the clutches were not fertilized by the first male that locked with the female . . . in many cases it was the last male that locked before ovulation.

I'll be keeping the same info for this season to determine if last year's data was a fluke or what.

Good luck to everyone during this season!
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Alice Cobb
Florida Reptile Room

That's amazing!
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Ryan Sherman
Scottsdale, Arizona
www.ThePaintedPython.com

54% out of how many snakes?

Sorry, not trying to sound abrasive, just curious - 50% of 2 snakes is 1 snake. Just looking for something to compare to.
I was quoting the barker's book when I said that it's usually the first male. Personally, since I haven't had any codom males until recently, I used only one male with my female to be sure of paternity.

Record keeping is pretty awesome though. I'm really curious about the results if you are able to keep the same kind of track of things this year. It'd be cool if more breeders who cycle multiple codom males through their females kept those kinds of records (along with their husbandry methods) to see if there is any kind of trend. Since everyone does things differently, I think we could learn a lot just by comparing data.

One can dream, right?

~jenny
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"Polysyllabism in no way insures that what you're saying is actually worth being heard." - Blake (an e-friend of mine)

"I have never made but one prayer to god, a very short one: "O lord, make my enemies ridiculous." And he granted it." - Voltaire

Jenny, there are a few of us anal retentive types in the ball python world that keep very detailed records of their breeding efforts. For example, I know Tim and Monica Bailey of Bailey & Bailey Reptiles also keep excellent records.

Good question regarding real numbers, not percentages. 54% of our clutches not "sired" by the first male to lock up represents 14 clutches out of 26 clutches that had multiple co-dom males put with a single female. I also took into consideration that I might have missed a lock so I only included clutches where I knew a particular male was not put with that female until several weeks after the first male locked with her. My results for the year before last were similar but the number of clutches was much smaller.

I did not count the recessive clutches we hatched in this analysis as they did not have more than 1 male for obvious reasons.

While I really admire the Barkers and other pioneers in this hobby/industry (I refer to their book as well as Kevin's on a regular basis,) I think there are many areas where we just don't know all the answers/possibilities yet. For example, before JP posted the no substrate method of incubation (thanks for that JP - I'll never go back), everyone thought you just had to have your eggs nestled snugly in a mixture of vermiculite and perelite. In addition, as I said in my first post, last year might have been a fluke . . . I'll need many more years to say anything conclusively.

Hope this helps.

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Alice Cobb
Florida Reptile Room

Thank you very much! That answered my question(s) completely.

And I'll agree - there is a lot we still don't know. Speaking of, did the no substrate method work for you with eggs that were definately glued together? I keep having issues with vermiculite keeping the eggs on top humid enough without making the eggs on bottom too soggy.

~jenny
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"Polysyllabism in no way insures that what you're saying is actually worth being heard." - Blake (an e-friend of mine)

"I have never made but one prayer to god, a very short one: "O lord, make my enemies ridiculous." And he granted it." - Voltaire

Yes, the no substrate method works without separating the eggs.We use wet perelite covered by a floresent light grating cut to the right size. Eggs go right on top of the grating. They do not touch the substrate at all. We don't try to separate the eggs unless they are just too high a mound to fit in an egg tub. No problem whatsoever - just need to make sure the box is the right size. I keep too sizes ready, a standard 6 qt and then one that is deeper/higher.
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Alice Cobb
Florida Reptile Room

The good news is that if she is still breeding your snake then she isn't gravid - the bad news is that once she ovulates and fertilizes her follicles - there's a good chance that if she mated with the other male - some of his sperm may be used for fertilization. There are those that say the first male in usually fathers the clutch - tho there have been clutches laid were there were obviously more than one father.

Good luck.
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Tosha
JET Pythons

Ok. Thank you. I never witnessed copulation with the other male. How long after mating will she show though... I mean is 3 days enough time for her to show, if she is gravid from my breeder? If not, then am I correct in saying that she may still use his sperm to fertilize the eggs from the other male?

Sorry I'm new to this...

The female will store the sperm from the males that she copulates with until her follicles are big enough to fertilize - when they reach that size she'll push them into the oviducts for fertilization - they kind of get jammed up in there and that big lump you see for about 24 hours is the jammed up follicles - we call this ovulation. If you see her ovulate you'll know she is gravid. There are several signs you can look for to tell which phase of her reproductive cycle she is in - Markus Jaynes has a great web page that has an outstanding pictorial guide www.ballpython.ca/gallery/breeding.html

Good luck.
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Tosha
JET Pythons