Reptile & Amphibian Forums

By next fall I am hoping to move to a unpopulated area on Sand Mtn, in the great state of AL. One of the things I am planning to do after I am moved is set up an outside "pit" or enclosure for pit vipers. I am only planning to keep regionally collected animals in there. Most likely the snakes I pull from peoples yards and barns. I am thinking about using cinder blocks and sinking the wall 12 inches into the ground and have about 48 inches showing above ground. No gates or doorways. the only way in or out is over the wall. Thinking about making it 20 feet by 20 feet and placing a filtered pond in the center. I have 2 issues that I need to resolve for this plan and i would like input from anyone who has ever set up such an enclosure. first issue, i need some sort of artificial den for the winter months. I do not want to use anything eclectic. i don't want to run the risk of a power outage killing off the snakes outside. what i am thinking is a plastic footlocker, insulated on the top and sides. half inch holes cut in the bottom to allow water to filter out should any make it in. Then digging out an area and placing gravel in the hole, the box on the gravel, then burying the box 18 inches underground. snakes will have access thru a PVC pipe running underground to the box. also planning to put hay inside the box in late fall. The hay should create a little of its own heat over the winter months. Second, looking for an expedient way to feed the collection of snakes inside the pit. I think tossing in couple dozen live mice would get some feed, but many of the mice will dig or climb out. throwing in dead mice, i think the prolific eaters will feast and the more reluctant will starve. I plan to keep fish and fogs in the pond, so the cottonmouths can probably earn a living from the pond. Some coppers may follow suite, but I don't think the timbers will ever assimilate to an aquatic diet. Another thought is day old chicks right out of the egg. no chance of those digging or climbing out, but not sure how difficult it will be to have access to those spring to fall. of course, no feed from about late oct to april. Thank you and look forward to the feedback.

Samuel 'Chuck' Hurd
Professional Educator / Venomous Reptile Curator
www.ChuckHurd.com
423.580.7513 (txt capable)

Chuck Hurd Serpentology

You got to be kidding!

Randal Berry

If the "attractive nuisance" doctrine applies to 4 ft unfenced swimming pools, I'm pretty sure it would apply to a 4 ft unfenced pool filled with rattlesnakes, cottonmouths, and copperheads.

From Nolo:
"attractive nuisance: Something on a piece of property that attracts children but also endangers their safety. For example, unfenced swimming pools, open pits, farm equipment and abandoned refrigerators have all qualified as attractive nuisances."

joker. Me too, n/p
Maybe you could suppliment with gnomes.

The rules in Florida for open top outdoor pits like that require your 8” wall to have a concrete footer and not less than three feet into the ground measured from the outside perimeter. There isn’t the “pool” rules about fencing, but it does say the enclosure shall be equipped with barriers to prevent visitors from falling in if constructed below ground level.

While most are not taking your post seriously, Bill Haast would. He has just such a setup at Miami Serpentarium Labs in Punta Gorda, Florida. Here’s a link to a tour of the facility by the Calusa Herp Society. You will see one of the half acre “propogation pits” and pictures of a copperhead and western diamondback that live in the same pit.

http://www.calusaherp.org/Special_Events/previous_events/miami_serpentarium_fieldtrip.htm

Here’s another link to a site that shows a tour of the facility by the SHHS, same thing. They say there are 200 rattlesnakes in the pit at any one time.

http://www.geocities.com/hotherps/haast.html

Maybe you should contact them to arrange a tour of their facility? Ask how he feeds them!

venominme

lol where do you think he got the idea
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Dan S.
Crotalus & Company-- Captive Bred Reptiles
Venom-Center -- Venomous Community
Wisconsin Reptile Community
Hybrid Herps-- Hybrid Community

Hi Chuck, I like it! I think you would want to have access to the hibernaculum. What about putting it in a mound build above ground level. You might be able to design some rear access filled with insulation and only slightly covered by natural cover? Also it you used two inch styrofoam sheet as insulation, maybe it would not have to be that deep? Don't give up on the electrons yet....what about a camera in there with them. I got one of the underwater cameras mentioned on another forum and that would be great!! The exterior fencing would probably be a good liability protector. Checking with Bill Haas would be a good idea on the feeding, but I hope he won't suggest tube feeding them (LOL). I might also think about some "lip" at the top of the enclosue. Let us know when its done, I want to come see it.

My house as a whole will have a chain link security fence, the enclosure will not be out in the open. I may provide another fence inside the yard to separate the enclosure area from my yard, i am still undecided on that. As i stated, i intend to be moving to a very unpopulated area. the reason that i haven't put something like this into affect before is that i have lived in places that were too populated for such an endeavor. I have been in contact with the AL officials, there are no codes there, as they are in FL. i know that Haast has some sort of open air enclosure, but i have not seen his. i actually saw my first pits as a small child in southwest VA. back then every spring and summer, snake pits popped up beside the road. people brought in all types of local snakes and dropped them in a counter-sunk pit. i guess it was about 6 feet deep. they provided you a long stick you could move the snakes around with. i think you paid something like $.50 to go in and look at them. of course, as i child i didn't realize they were being mistreated. i just enjoyed seeing them. so, i have wanted a set up like this since i was probably 5 years old. of course as my knowledge expended, the design in my head changed quite a bit. I am looking for as natural of a set up as possible. I am not planning to move the rattlesnakes i have been keeping the last 10 years out of the slide rack and into the pit. during the spring and summer i get called out quite often to remove snakes from people's yards and barns. with an adult snake, you can not relocate them, they will not adjust. the only options are to leave them alone, kill them, or move them to captivity. so, i am thinking i will take the removals and use the outside enclosure for them. so, when a nature center calls and says, chuck, our rattlesnake just died, we need one, i have a reserve. also, i am hoping they breed. I can return those off spring to the wild in locations with little human activity. I think its going to be important to have access to the den. I think the hay will have to be replaced each fall and of course from time to time, one will roll inside the den. I know that plumbers burry water lines 18 inches to prevent freezing, so that is why i am thinking they need to be at least 18 inches deep. so, i guess i am looking at just digging up and replanting the dens every fall. i have decided to cap the PVC leading to the den. as part of my feed back, one keeper had something like this set up. he had an EDB come out one day in Jan when the afternoon temp was high. When the sun went down, the temp dropped very quickly and he got stuck out and died. during the 4 coldest months, i plan to cap the lines to keep them in and during the warm months, will probably cap to keep them out....lessen the chance of one dying in the den. as for feed. good idea on the auto feeder. will keep around the prey i toss in and also attract wild mice, rats, squirrels, ect. i like it. Haast has to extract from his collection, so he keeps a detailed record. When he extracts one, he tub feeds it. I am not planning on working with them individually at all. I am looking for a set up that will be close to self supporting once it is initially set up. I don't want to track down each snake to feed it. I may look at some sort of lip on the walls, but i only plan to keep pit vipers in there. they are not good climbers to Begin with and should i have one that is over 4 feet, it would probably warrant going inside to one of my many breeding project. Thanks for the information. and i am not too concerned about those that aren't taking it seriously, they know very little about what i am dealing with and their opinions would not have been useful any way.

Samuel 'Chuck' Hurd
Professional Educator / Venomous Reptile Curator
www.ChuckHurd.com
423.580.7513 (txt capable)
Chuck Hurd Serpentology

I took you seriously, I'm just not sure an unpopulated area without a fence will protect you under the "attractive nuisance" tort doctrine. My biggest worry would be that teenagers hear there are a dozen-plus snakes in a pit 20 miles down the interstate and then you have all kinds of pranks or worse. If your property fence is secure I guess you can be secure. If I remember my Discovery Channel, the Haasts have a 8 foot brick wall around the EDB outdor enclosure--very cool-looking I must say!

i'm suprised no one mentioned Mr. Hayward Clamp's pits here in SC...he has two pits,one for venomous and one for non...the water flows around the edge, with little creeks that also feed water from the islands...they apear to be sunk about 2ft and come up about 4 ft, making a 6ft wall... no entrance just jump in...he released live rats in the inclosures the first year and they dug tunnels all over the islands...he did not want this so now he feeds the large animals dead rats in the inclosure...he also releases live mice in the inclosure for the smaller stuff...the rat's tunnels did do one good thing,the snakes now use the tunnels, but if he had kept using the live rats,they would have eventually destoyed the pits...the walls are made of cinder blocks covered with stuck-o, to give it a smooth surface...they are shaped like a kidney bean and maybe 80 ft long...one would fit in my back yard,easy...would love to put my coppers in one,maybe one day...the water is kept clean and the walls scrubbed weekly...the mote looks to be pained with a pool paint...paul moody has some pictures on his web site Easterdiamondbacks.com...under Edisto Serpentarium....supprised you have not been to Hayward's before Chuck, it's just south of charelston....it's nice!!! love to just watch the animals in the pits and just look for how many you can see...the non venomous pit has kings,corns,water snakes(banded,brown,& red bellies),rat snakes(yellow,greenish,grey,and black)coachwhips,racers,and possibly a couple others...and there are like 20 snakes in each tree...you can even see the rattlesnakes climbing trees and bushes,something you don't expect to see...chuck you need to come this way and check em out...i believe hayward has pictures of how it was built on the walls on the inside building...hayward and teddy built the pits themselves,probably with some help....and he could help you out tremendously....jamie

its not going to be a pit in the seance of being counter sunk into the ground. this "pit" for lack of a better word, will have a 4 foot high block wall all the way around it. no one will fall into this. but regardless, access will be all means to limited to only people i allow near it.

Samuel 'Chuck' Hurd
Professional Educator / Venomous Reptile Curator
www.ChuckHurd.com
423.580.7513 (txt capable)
Chuck Hurd Serpentology

I am co-writing an article for future publication in a reptile journal (with Dr. Rodrigo Souza of Brazil and Dr. Earl Turner of Tx) on the keeping of bushmasters that includes keeping them in outdoor enclosures (where they are native). It's considered a "primitive" form of herp keeping but you can't beat mother nature in terms of what it provides. There are many, many challenges in keeping herps in this manner (not to mention parasites, etc.) but it can be done and I think that it's a neat idea as long as certain elements are addressed.

Some folks laughed at Chuck but I think your idea has a lot of validity and value. We keep our native turtles in outdoor enclosures and they do great, breed well and have never experienced any problems. Feeding will be a challenge I would recommend not keeping too many in the same "pit". Creating a hibernaculum isn't too hard and will just take a little planning as you have done. There's no textbook way of doing it. I would, however recommend a very gradual grade to draw water away from the artificial den. Also, have a good layer of different size gravel under the den for drainage. If you did a deep enough pit, filled in with flagstone, clay piping and even carpeting and then have a few access areas once filled in will be plenty.

I'd like to hear how this project comes along and don't let others say it can't be done - it can but it will be challenging. You'll probably find a lot of enjoyment of watching your animals in a natural surrounding. Yes, you can always better monitor herps in a controlled, indoor setting but whose to say that's the best way.

Rob Carmichael
Wildlife Discovery Center

>>By next fall I am hoping to move to a unpopulated area on Sand Mtn, in the great state of AL. One of the things I am planning to do after I am moved is set up an outside "pit" or enclosure for pit vipers. I am only planning to keep regionally collected animals in there. Most likely the snakes I pull from peoples yards and barns. I am thinking about using cinder blocks and sinking the wall 12 inches into the ground and have about 48 inches showing above ground. No gates or doorways. the only way in or out is over the wall. Thinking about making it 20 feet by 20 feet and placing a filtered pond in the center. I have 2 issues that I need to resolve for this plan and i would like input from anyone who has ever set up such an enclosure. first issue, i need some sort of artificial den for the winter months. I do not want to use anything eclectic. i don't want to run the risk of a power outage killing off the snakes outside. what i am thinking is a plastic footlocker, insulated on the top and sides. half inch holes cut in the bottom to allow water to filter out should any make it in. Then digging out an area and placing gravel in the hole, the box on the gravel, then burying the box 18 inches underground. snakes will have access thru a PVC pipe running underground to the box. also planning to put hay inside the box in late fall. The hay should create a little of its own heat over the winter months. Second, looking for an expedient way to feed the collection of snakes inside the pit. I think tossing in couple dozen live mice would get some feed, but many of the mice will dig or climb out. throwing in dead mice, i think the prolific eaters will feast and the more reluctant will starve. I plan to keep fish and fogs in the pond, so the cottonmouths can probably earn a living from the pond. Some coppers may follow suite, but I don't think the timbers will ever assimilate to an aquatic diet. Another thought is day old chicks right out of the egg. no chance of those digging or climbing out, but not sure how difficult it will be to have access to those spring to fall. of course, no feed from about late oct to april. Thank you and look forward to the feedback.
>>
>>Samuel 'Chuck' Hurd
>>Professional Educator / Venomous Reptile Curator
>>www.ChuckHurd.com
>>423.580.7513 (txt capable)
>>
>>
>>Chuck Hurd Serpentology
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

I was a little quick to jump to conclusions. It was late and I thought this was some ye-haw I'm a gunna build me a snake pit post. I guess it still is that kinda post but in a validated "ye-haw" way. I hope to see it up and running shortly.

I think a cheap way to keep feeder rodents in would be to add a foot high metal flashing around the top of the wall

I checked out your website and love some of your horridus projects, Is that pic of what your going for one of Vandeventer's Snakes?

No hard feelings, but I have been keeping rattlesnakes since I was a child, close to 30 years now. I think I have done the research and have the background to make this idea work. As a child, of course, I had to hide the snakes I caught, so my early collection was all housed outside. They probably weren't in the best of conditions, but this was years before the internet and reptiles mag, so I had to learn as I went. Anyway, no, that is not the snake that Terry was keeping. That one actually belonged to Randy Smith, Terry was only housing it. There is a picture of that snake under the canebrake photo gallery on my site. These snakes were orginoally collected in MD, they are true timbers. The current owner asked me not to post his name, he wants to keep a low profile for some reason.

Samuel 'Chuck' Hurd
Professional Educator / Venomous Reptile Curator
www.ChuckHurd.com
423.580.7513 (txt capable)
Chuck Hurd Serpentology

Me too Chuck, I wasn't making fun of your idea when I said, "You got to be kidding"
You call yourself a "Professinal Educator" and I was referring to all of the mispelled words in your post.
However your idea of an outside "pit" has potential!
Good luck in your endeavor.
Randal Berry

In all honesty, I teach history, not spelling and grammar. I typed out the post while at work, so I did it in a hurry. Sorry my inaccuracies offended you. I will try to do better in order to live up to your expectations in the future.

Samuel 'Chuck' Hurd
Professional Educator / Venomous Reptile Curator
www.ChuckHurd.com
423.580.7513 (txt capable)

Ok, I'll forgive you this time! Try to do better next time!
LOL! Just Kidding! Relax!

Randal