Reptile & Amphibian Forums

EVERYONE needs o get theirs butts to the opening page of Kingsnake.com and follow the link regarding the Feds banning Boas & Pythons.

This is gogint o be one of the most serious attacks on our hobby yet, so everyone needs to do their part. It may require you writing a physical letter, making a few phone calls and doing it more than twice.

We need to all band together and make something happen.

We have until April 30th, from now till then send multiple messages of disagreement, contact as many people as you can, and raise hell.

Please remember to be polite, sounding crazy does not help our cause.

Contact your local congressman and senators. If you know any out side your area that woudl also help.

Good luck and lets fight!

Jon

is that for real?? think about how bad that would suck... no more imports and no state to state....

so if that passed i would no longer be able to order a boa from the next state over?

allthough after reeding some of those other posts i do agree that its should be controlled to a point, however a ban like that is a bit extreme and way distructive to the herp industry.

IMO large reptiles are way to easily accessible to people incapable of caring for them. burmease, retics, even green iguannas. these animals dont make good pets for ametures or hobbyist. then there are also annacondas even allagators and other large lizards that some of the "more experinced hobbyist" or herptoligest dont even have proper facility to care for some of these and thats bad for the animal...

at the same time there are others who know very well and are more than capable or caring for said animals, and to them a ban would be most unfair...

perhaps if anything where to be done about this IMO i think it should be that the larger reptiles (like those mentioned above) can be keept with permit only.... that way those who are capable can keep whatever they want, and also makes it harder for those who arnt, to obtain any

im not against having these large reptile at all... im against people having then who cant care for them and provide proper environment. and banning everyone from having them is not a good way to solve for that
-----
-Stephen-

0.1 soon to be wifey (hopefully)
1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer-wifey's pooch)
1.0 norm corn (Jake aka grumpy old terdhead)
0.1 col redtail boa (Dixie-my baby girl)
0.1 ball python (Bella- wifey's baby girl)

hopeful for not to distant future:
--brazillian rainbow boas 1 female for sure
2 or 3? maybe a breeding pair?
-- bearded dragon for the wifey my list got to big...

more distant future hopefuls
1 or 2 of each maybe a breeding pair?
--anery boa (ooooh)
--jungle carpet python (love to have 1 or 2)
--dumeril boa (ahhhh)

slightly more wishful thinking
--hypo br rainbow boa (love em)
--anery br rainbow boa (oooh even better!!)
--motely boa (gorgeous!!)

I agree with you completely Stephen. More than anything I think that the larger reptiles should be regulated, including monitors, iguanas, crocodilians, the larger pythons and boas. I want to open a pet/reptile store of my own in a few years and I have seen too many that sell iguanas and red tail boas without much hesitation. Burmese are harder to find but still easy enough. To have a complete ban like that would be a tremendous blow to the industry as well as captive breeding programs. It sounds like it will be imposed not only through the internet but also at pet stores, for example there is a nice pet store in Oregon that I have always wanted to go to but if I went and wanted to buy something it would probably be required of me to show a drivers license at least for the state I purchase in as proof of residence. I think that permits would be a better idea but implementation would be more costly than a ban and so that is why they are going all out instead of finding a medium.
-----
Jess
2.4 adult BRBs (Sango, Dude, Copper, Cleo, Cherry, Dudette)
1.1 baby BRBs born 6/18/06 my first litter(Zeek, Isis)
0.1 baby BRB produced by Dave Colling (Sable)
1.1 Pacific/celestial Parrotlets (Dewey and Delilah)
1.1 MORE Pacific/Celestial Parrotlets (Tickle and Booger)
1.0 normal corn (Pop the Cornsnake)
1.1 african brown house snake (Nellie, Lacie)
1.1 crested geckos (Chips, Dijon)
1.1 western hognoses (Google, Yahoo)
0.1 paranoid mother "too many snakes!"
1.0 significant other that gives me a funny look when I say a baby snake is cute

It might be interesting to have this discussion amoung our small group to see if we can come to a consensus. Saagbay, and Medyssa I think we may share similar thoughts on the regulation of these animals except that I'm in favor of monitoring all species. Only large/venomous animals pose any real threat to humans. But, ANY species, if placed in the correct habitat, could become an invasive one. In my opinion MANY species are produced in waaaay to many numbers in captivity. It's the surplus of animals that are being released or ending up in the hands of people who are ill-equipped to handle them.

I'd like to suggest that the first step be to collect data on how many of each species are actually purchased by individuals each year. In other words, how many animals are finding permanent homes every year?

Next, we try to make sure that, as breeders, we don't overshoot that number. Maybe breeders could purchase "baby credits" or something from some national herpetological organization. I realize that this may drive the cost of species up a bit. I think it's better than a ban.

Finally, a microchipping program could be established for some or all species as need be. Each time the animal changes ownership, the new owner could be logged electronically. This way escaped / released animals could be traced to breeders and owners so that they could take responsibility. Again, this would add a cost.

These are just a couple of preliminary ideas and I certainly don't have the details worked out. But, our hobby is being shared by thousands and thousands of new people each year. Some guidelins should be agreed upon to keep the hobby healthy.
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Mike Lockwood
www.tooscaley.com

i agree that this kind of discussion is needed, i think we all can learn alot from eachother and collectively come up with some good ideas...

"'m in favor of monitoring all species. Only large/venomous animals pose any real threat to humans. But, ANY species, if placed in the correct habitat, could become an invasive one. In my opinion MANY species are produced in waaaay to many numbers in captivity."

i both agree and dissagree with this and here is why
your right smaller reptiles share the same potential of being place in an inproper environment as do large, and either way its just as bad for the animal. however with larger reptiles i think it happens at a much higher % rate. i think a line has to be drawn to prevent execess cost to the government

not only that but if you consider ALL pet reptiles, why stop there... i dont know the facts for sure but i would assume there are FAR MORE mistreated dogs in the country than all reptiles put together. if we make all reptiles "by permit only" where is the line drawn befor the same is said about any kind of pet weather it be dog, cat, bird, fish, rodent, reptile....

I'd like to suggest that the first step be to collect data

i agree with this. i have many assumptions, alot of witch are prolly not far from the truth. but with no data to back it up its as good as meaningless.

a microchipping program could be established for some or all species as need be. Each time the animal changes ownership, the new owner could be logged electronically

this sounds like a good idea, however i dont see it as being very realistic. yes it would make it easy to track said animal, but i think it would be way to costly and impractical. as with a ban i think this also would premote "underground herping".. on the same note if it came two microchips and an outright ban, i dont think i need to say which i would chose...

just a few of my thaughts on it
-----
-Stephen-

0.1 soon to be wifey (hopefully)
1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer-wifey's pooch)
1.0 norm corn (Jake aka grumpy old terdhead)
0.1 col redtail boa (Dixie-my baby girl)
0.1 ball python (Bella- wifey's baby girl)

hopeful for not to distant future:
--brazillian rainbow boas 1 female for sure
2 or 3? maybe a breeding pair?
-- bearded dragon for the wifey my list got to big...

more distant future hopefuls
1 or 2 of each maybe a breeding pair?
--anery boa (ooooh)
--jungle carpet python (love to have 1 or 2)
--dumeril boa (ahhhh)

slightly more wishful thinking
--hypo br rainbow boa (love em)
--anery br rainbow boa (oooh even better!!)
--motely boa (gorgeous!!)

Thanks for replying.

i both agree and dissagree with this and here is why
your right smaller reptiles share the same potential of being place in an inproper environment as do large, and either way its just as bad for the animal. however with larger reptiles i think it happens at a much higher % rate. i think a line has to be drawn to prevent execess cost to the government

OK, I see your point. This is why I think there should be a national organization for herps (Like the AKC???). It should be made up of herpetoculturists, herpetologists and lawmakers. This knowlegeable group of people could come up with guidelines for hobbyists. Blanket legislation over all species will be difficult and is probably unneccessary. I don't think you'd disagree that large snakes should be regulated. I'd like to suggest ANY long-lived species (10 years or more) as well. The longer an animal's life span, the more likely that an owner won't be able to properly care for it permanently.

not only that but if you consider ALL pet reptiles, why stop there... i dont know the facts for sure but i would assume there are FAR MORE mistreated dogs in the country than all reptiles put together. if we make all reptiles "by permit only" where is the line drawn befor the same is said about any kind of pet weather it be dog, cat, bird, fish, rodent, reptile....

Yes, the same problems exist with dogs and cats. It's no secret that these animals are mistreated and that there is a surplus of them in our country. This discussion often turns to dogs and cats as the example but I don't think it should. We should strive to structure our hobby so that we don't make the mistakes made with dogs and cats. I'm not suggesting permits for them. I'm suggesting taking a good look at herps because that's what we know and herps are what this particular piece of legislation is targeting. I'm also NOT suggesting that people purchase permits to own reptiles. Only the breeders should do this. We should pay to produce the animals. For example, I could buy the right to produce 30 BRBs in a given year. Those 30 babies would each be assigned an ID number. The sale of those animals could be logged into a national database. If I if that database logged over 30 sales by me in that particular year, then I would be fined. Our permit money could go to fund this national herpetological body. Breeders of large and long-lived reptiles should pay for microchipping. I know that if I made a sale I would be sure that the "chip" was transferred to the new owner. Now they are responsible. If they sell the animal, it will be up to them to have the chip updated to pass responsibility onto the next owner.

this sounds like a good idea, however i dont see it as being very realistic. yes it would make it easy to track said animal, but i think it would be way to costly and impractical. as with a ban i think this also would premote "underground herping".. on the same note if it came two microchips and an outright ban, i dont think i need to say which i would chose...

A microchipping program is in place in Florida. I don't know how many problems it has solved vs. ones it has created. But the technology is there to do this.

All of these things would incur costs which would have to be passed on tho the consumer. I'm O.k. with this. If someone has to pay a little more for their pet, they're going to take better care of it.
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Mike Lockwood
www.tooscaley.com

While I like the idea of more responsibility, standards, etc... in the hobby I do see some problem's.

One is that while the AKC is one of the premier examples of structure(records and controls/restrictions) in current day husbandry it is neither universal nor without flaw. The AKC is one of many registeries operating in the USA with it's single biggest competitor being the UKC. So while you have to behave according to the AKC's rules if you want to participate in their registery there is nothing the AKC can do to control the activities of non-members.

The positive effect of their not being a single all encompassing registery is that it minimizes damage to species/breeds from line/inbreeding. Very common among the microcosm of a single registery is the selection for very specific traits to the exclusion of all others. This is normally because as the judges favor a trait in competitions the animals with that trait end up being worth more money to prospective breeders. This in turn encourages the line/inbreeding of specimens with that trait for financial gain. Two examples are the poodle and the german shepherd. The poodle used to be a hunting dog but now is plagued by poor eyesight, hearing, and smell. The german shepherd used to be a working dog and have a almost level back. Now German Shepherds have been bred for shorter hind legs to give it a sloped look when standing and they suffer from hip and other health problems.

Another problem the AKC has ties back to the underground herping idea. The AKC is in part successful because of the fact that it uses closed book registeration. This means that all of the AKC registered dog's are 100% "pure" in refferesnce to bloodlines/genetics originating from the end of the initial recognition of the breed. However that also means that any animals which are imported, offspring from later imports, and offspring of AKC eligible but unregistered parents are all not registerable. This could cause a problem in the genetic health of the species in the long run if there is not a sufficiently large gene pool among registered specimens. Likewise if the registery is successful then the registered animals will most likely cost more and that will be incentive for individuals wanting to save money on specimens but not breed them to buy unregistered specimens.

As far as Microchipping goes there has been two or three existing microchipping programs here in California for at least the last handfull of years for both Canines and Felines. I only know this because I got my dog's chipped some years back when I was renewing their liscenses. Now I do not know about the program in Florida that you mentioned Mike so I have no idea if it is at all similar to the ones out here. I do know that out here, last time I checked, they were having a little problem of not all pounds/vet's checking for all the types of chipping. As a result you needed to make sure of which ones were in use by the pounds in your area in case your dog/cat got out.

The one draw back to the increased costs of large overhead hobby wide is that it will negatively affect the hobby growth and I expect fairly significantly if the price difference is high. Any hobby has to have a low cost entery level option to be able to adequately continue to recruit new enthusiasts. Mainly this is because parents are not willing to spend alot on a first time hobby for their child most of the time. So if the entry level cost of the hobby is high you will largely be relying on adults to pick the hobby up on their own out of personal interest and most adults are too busy and set in their habbits to pick up completely new hobbies. For this reason I would be cautious about any program that will cause a blanket rise in cost across the hobby.

I do think that there is a big problem with iresponsible keepers and sellers. Primary example being Burmese Pythons in Florida. That being said I have a strong suspicion that most of the problem here is unscroupulous sellers either not informing the potential buyer of the necessities of the species or the seller being willing to sell problem species to people who do not seem to be ready for them. By problem species I mean species that get large enough to not be housable by the average apartment renter or which can be dangerous to humans.

Overall I would like full disclaosure of animal ancestery to the degree that is possible and a way to reduce irresponsible ownership/sales of problem species. Unfortunately the least offensive option I can think of is a voluntary registery/registeries along with a permit requirement for problem species. Even this though I have concerns with since, as we have seen in California, permits to keep can easily turn into essentially a unofficial bann. The CA example I am familiar with is the permits for gila monsters/beaded lizards. Last I heard the only people that still have been allowed to get the permit for these species are the five or eight breeders that were grandfathered in when the permits were legistlated. This also means that the only people that those permit holding breeders can sell offspring to are either out of country or out of state residents who hold a permit in their state of residency.

Hopefully this discussion will continue and grow and a outright bann be avoided.

Sean

PS: Mike I wasn't targeting your responses specifically, just we only have a few people talking so far to respond to
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1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

Thanks for the reply Sean. There's no targetting here. Just good conversation

Again, while we might be able to learn from AKC/Dogs/Cats. I don't necessarily think they have a lot to do with this legislation.
-----
Mike Lockwood
www.tooscaley.com

Your comments deserve much more of a reply than I gave you. But, I had to run out of the house for something suddenly (couldn't even watch the ned of the game ). I'll re-read your post and reply more appropriately tomorrow O.K.
-----
Mike Lockwood
www.tooscaley.com

No worries Mike.
As you said just carrying on the conversation and the more ideas being worked over the better the chances of finding something worth while. See ya farther on down the post tree

Sean
-----
1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

Sean,
....You wrote
"The one draw back to the increased costs of large overhead hobby wide is that it will negatively affect the hobby growth and I expect fairly significantly if the price difference is high. Any hobby has to have a low cost entery level option to be able to adequately continue to recruit new enthusiasts. Mainly this is because parents are not willing to spend alot on a first time hobby for their child most of the time. So if the entry level cost of the hobby is high you will largely be relying on adults to pick the hobby up on their own out of personal interest and most adults are too busy and set in their habbits to pick up completely new hobbies. For this reason I would be cautious about any program that will cause a blanket rise in cost across the hobby."

And I agree 110%. Microchipping will add a cost. That cost may seem insignificant to someone selling multi-thousand dollar snakes but to someone breeding normal Bci and selling them for $35 each the cost of microchipping is significant and prohibitive. This hobby will not do well without new recruitment of people interested in learning about and keeping snakes and higher prices for entry level snakes will stop some of them.
Jeff

Sean,

I know absolutely nothing about the AKC. I only mentioned it because It's an organization that lays out guidelines for captive reproductio. I completly see your point that there are flaws within their system. I don't think this should deter us from uniting and organizing some guidelines for what we do.

I'm not familiar with the phrase "closed book registration". From your post, I'm getting the idea that it means that the gene pool is limited because no "new" genetics are accepted (please correct me if I'm wrong). In a way, we already do this. We line breed for specific traits. But we also see the value in outcrossing . We do this to increase genetic diversity as well ast to create new combinations of phenotypes. I see herps being different here because there is no set of "standards" to describe the ideal rainbow boa. There's no reason for us to narrow the gene pool (yet).

I do see your point 100% about low entry cost into the hobby. I don't think that a set of breeders guidelines would have to disrupt this. There could still be a healthy set of introductory species available to newcomers. Hell, regulating the hobby could delineate those species very clearly, making the choices for newcomers easier (although somewhat limited).

Again you guys, I'm only trying to continue a discussion that seems to be cropping up on this and opther forums. This is not the first ime in recent years that we've been faced with legislation. I really don't need to see myself as being right and I won't feel bad if our hobby goes on for the next 1000 years unregulated. I just see this as a golden opportunity to unite.
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Mike Lockwood
www.tooscaley.com

Yeah, I'd like to see more organization but if possible I'd like the organization without the forced regulation. This might not be possible in the hobby as a whole but I'd like to aim for as little forced regulation as will get the job done.

Sean.
-----
1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

Mike,

With all due respect, I think your ideas have merit, but only
theoretically. Practically, I don't see how these procedures could be agreed on by everyone in the hobby, much less enforced. You'd still have buyers who don't want to pay the premiums for snakes from "registered" breeders/sellers, so you'd still have "unregistered" breeders/sellers. For dogs, I'm not sure the AKC has done anything to prevent similar problems with canines.

Personally, I think most of the breeders/hobbyists (whose opinions I've read) are overlooking the real problem here. The real problem, imo, is pretty simple. The vast majority of the public in the US do not like reptiles, and they especially dislike/fear larger snakes. I feel as strongly as anyone that the federal government has no business even proposing this legislation, but since it has, I'm not optimistic that we (a small minority of the US citizenry) can really do much, except to submit feedback as proposed by the feds. Let's face it, domestic dogs and cats are more "injurious" to humans and wildlife, probably by several orders of magnitude. And ironically, the more snakes in the wild, assuming they'd even survive, might be helpful to we humans, as they control rodent populations. But dogs and cats are cute, fluffy mammals, not evil serpents.

I'd encourage everyone to do what the USFWS is requesting to provide feedback (see the legislation link on kingsnake.com home page.) The legislation is not calling for a ban yet on boas and non-burmese pythons, but rather it's a call for more information.

The only legislation that I could see that as meaningful and
possibly enforcable is to require sellers of large constrictors
to take back snakes from customers who can no longer care for
the snake. Not sure that would work either, but I just thought
of it about 22 seconds ago.

Just my $.02.

Thanks,
Ed

>>It might be interesting to have this discussion amoung our small group to see if we can come to a consensus. Saagbay, and Medyssa I think we may share similar thoughts on the regulation of these animals except that I'm in favor of monitoring all species. Only large/venomous animals pose any real threat to humans. But, ANY species, if placed in the correct habitat, could become an invasive one. In my opinion MANY species are produced in waaaay to many numbers in captivity. It's the surplus of animals that are being released or ending up in the hands of people who are ill-equipped to handle them.
>>
>>I'd like to suggest that the first step be to collect data on how many of each species are actually purchased by individuals each year. In other words, how many animals are finding permanent homes every year?
>>
>>Next, we try to make sure that, as breeders, we don't overshoot that number. Maybe breeders could purchase "baby credits" or something from some national herpetological organization. I realize that this may drive the cost of species up a bit. I think it's better than a ban.
>>
>>Finally, a microchipping program could be established for some or all species as need be. Each time the animal changes ownership, the new owner could be logged electronically. This way escaped / released animals could be traced to breeders and owners so that they could take responsibility. Again, this would add a cost.
>>
>>These are just a couple of preliminary ideas and I certainly don't have the details worked out. But, our hobby is being shared by thousands and thousands of new people each year. Some guidelins should be agreed upon to keep the hobby healthy.
>>-----
>>Mike Lockwood
>>www.tooscaley.com

I appreciate your comments and I do agree that the things I'm suggesting are unconventional. At this point, I'm not too passionate about anything I'm saying. Just brainstorming to generate conversation.

Practically, I don't see how these procedures could be agreed on by everyone in the hobby, much less enforced.

No, it would be very difficult to come up with a comprehensive set of guidelines to please everyone. However, if a committee representing the herpetocultural community developed a plan which considered the breeders, the animals and the public at large, I would accept it even if it contained some inconveniences. The alternate (a total ban) is much more intrusive.

You'd still have buyers who don't want to pay the premiums for snakes from "registered" breeders/sellers, so you'd still have "unregistered" breeders/sellers. For dogs, I'm not sure the AKC has done anything to prevent similar problems with canines.

I agree, but here is where legislation would be helpful. It would be illegal to be an unregistered breeder/seller of particular animals. These people would not be able to attend snake shows, nor advertise on kingsnake. They would not be able to sell to reputable retail stores. They would be kept out of the largest parts of the market. I've been working withthese animals for a long long time. But, I've only very recently entered intot he business side of the hobby. One thing you notice right away is that reputation is everything. The registered breeders are going to have that on their side. There will always be dishonesty. People have the freedom of choice to break all the rules they want. That shouldn't stop us from trying to be responsible with the animals we are producing /selling.

No, it would be very difficult to come up with a comprehensive set of guidelines to please everyone. However, if a committee representing the herpetocultural community developed a plan which considered the breeders, the animals and the public at large, I would accept it even if it contained some inconveniences. The alternate (a total ban) is much more intrusive.

Personally, I think most of the breeders/hobbyists (whose opinions I've read) are overlooking the real problem here. The real problem, imo, is pretty simple. The vast majority of the public in the US do not like reptiles, and they especially dislike/fear larger snakes.

I have to disagree with you here. I really don't think this is a matter of not liking reptiles. Herp keepers have messed up. We have allowed ourselves to produce more animals than the market can handle. Because of the high numbers of large pythons and boas that are produced annually, their prices are dirt cheap. Hell, the cages required to keep these animals are more expensive (quite a bit more) than the snakes themselves. As a result, anyone with 50 bucks in their pocket can pick up an animal that has the potential to do real damage to people and the environment. I've seen the consequences of these impulse purchases first hand
-----
Mike Lockwood
www.tooscaley.com

No problem, I actually think you are taking the right approach compared to a lot of other breeders. I see a whole lot of emotional, knee-jerk reactions on some of the other forums/discussion groups. And of course, my opinion might be
way off... wouldn't be the first time.

I agree 100% that supply has greatly exceeded demand, thus causing prices to be very low on severals species of boas and
pythons. But that is precisely because most people do not like snakes, especially large constrictors. There's only a small market for them. But being a believer in the free market, this should take care of itself. Government intervention, imo, is not
a good thing. If there were some evidence that roaming giant constrictors were a national problem, maybe I can see some logic to legislation, but nothing I saw in the proposed legislation really pointed to that. Personally, I don't really care that a few Burmese python are living in the Everglades. (Throughout time, species have somehow or another moved from one place to another... especially humans! And who knows, they might even have a positive effect by keeping rat populations down.) Anyway, to get back to the point, theoretically prices will get so low that many breeders will go out of business, thus the supply will be reduced and prices should go up.

As far as irresponsible buyers, again I agree with you. There are too many. I'm just not sure government intervention designed to artificially raise prices is the right approach. But if there is some sort of legislation, what do you think of the idea of requiring sellers to take back boas/pythons from buyers who can't handle them? I think that would make sellers think twice about who they sell their snakes to, and it seems pretty simple. And it wouldn't really be much more inconvenient for sellers than anything else.

BTW, I really wish you and all other breeders luck with this. I think it's an absolutely crappy scenario for all hobbyists, but especially for breeders. I have a lot of respect for responsible, honest breeders, and I imagine that a federal ban on interstate sales (which will probably lead to even more restrictions) would be a death blow to your business.

Thanks for the discussion!

Ed

>>I appreciate your comments and I do agree that the things I'm suggesting are unconventional. At this point, I'm not too passionate about anything I'm saying. Just brainstorming to generate conversation.
>>
>>Practically, I don't see how these procedures could be agreed on by everyone in the hobby, much less enforced.
>>
>>No, it would be very difficult to come up with a comprehensive set of guidelines to please everyone. However, if a committee representing the herpetocultural community developed a plan which considered the breeders, the animals and the public at large, I would accept it even if it contained some inconveniences. The alternate (a total ban) is much more intrusive.
>>
>>You'd still have buyers who don't want to pay the premiums for snakes from "registered" breeders/sellers, so you'd still have "unregistered" breeders/sellers. For dogs, I'm not sure the AKC has done anything to prevent similar problems with canines.
>>
>>I agree, but here is where legislation would be helpful. It would be illegal to be an unregistered breeder/seller of particular animals. These people would not be able to attend snake shows, nor advertise on kingsnake. They would not be able to sell to reputable retail stores. They would be kept out of the largest parts of the market. I've been working withthese animals for a long long time. But, I've only very recently entered intot he business side of the hobby. One thing you notice right away is that reputation is everything. The registered breeders are going to have that on their side. There will always be dishonesty. People have the freedom of choice to break all the rules they want. That shouldn't stop us from trying to be responsible with the animals we are producing /selling.
>>
>>No, it would be very difficult to come up with a comprehensive set of guidelines to please everyone. However, if a committee representing the herpetocultural community developed a plan which considered the breeders, the animals and the public at large, I would accept it even if it contained some inconveniences. The alternate (a total ban) is much more intrusive.
>>
>>Personally, I think most of the breeders/hobbyists (whose opinions I've read) are overlooking the real problem here. The real problem, imo, is pretty simple. The vast majority of the public in the US do not like reptiles, and they especially dislike/fear larger snakes.
>>
>>I have to disagree with you here. I really don't think this is a matter of not liking reptiles. Herp keepers have messed up. We have allowed ourselves to produce more animals than the market can handle. Because of the high numbers of large pythons and boas that are produced annually, their prices are dirt cheap. Hell, the cages required to keep these animals are more expensive (quite a bit more) than the snakes themselves. As a result, anyone with 50 bucks in their pocket can pick up an animal that has the potential to do real damage to people and the environment. I've seen the consequences of these impulse purchases first hand
>>-----
>>Mike Lockwood
>>www.tooscaley.com

hey Mike and Ed you both have really good points on this and alot more room for further discussion, but its late and i have to work early tomorrow so ill keep it short tonight

as far as all of the options allready stated most have potential and some sound like a much better allternitive than a ban...

but after reading Ed's last responce i thing hes right. this is a good discussion but i think its veering off the tracks. talking about an alternitive to "the ban" might not be the right thing to do right now.... we dont even know if there is gonna be a ban....

maybe right now we should be focused on convincing whoever ne need to convince that a ban wouldnt solve anything. and if they (whoever they are) are still in need of a solution, THATS when we need to put something together and offer an allternitive

what do ya think?
-----
-Stephen-

0.1 soon to be wifey (hopefully)
1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer-wifey's pooch)
1.0 norm corn (Jake aka grumpy old terdhead)
0.1 col redtail boa (Dixie-my baby girl)
0.1 ball python (Bella- wifey's baby girl)

hopeful for not to distant future:
--brazillian rainbow boas 1 female for sure
2 or 3? maybe a breeding pair?
-- bearded dragon for the wifey my list got to big...

more distant future hopefuls
1 or 2 of each maybe a breeding pair?
--anery boa (ooooh)
--jungle carpet python (love to have 1 or 2)
--dumeril boa (ahhhh)

slightly more wishful thinking
--hypo br rainbow boa (love em)
--anery br rainbow boa (oooh even better!!)
--motely boa (gorgeous!!)

Hey Stephen,

Yes, I think at this point everyone should go to the following link and send (both online AND physical mail) comments to the USFWS:

http://kingsnake.com/FWSReview.pdf

I truly don't understand the reason for this silliness, it's like they are asking the public to prove there is *not* a nationwide problem. That's not even logical. But since it's happening we might as well bombard them with valid objections.

Thanks,
Ed

>>hey Mike and Ed you both have really good points on this and alot more room for further discussion, but its late and i have to work early tomorrow so ill keep it short tonight
>>
>>as far as all of the options allready stated most have potential and some sound like a much better allternitive than a ban...
>>
>>but after reading Ed's last responce i thing hes right. this is a good discussion but i think its veering off the tracks. talking about an alternitive to "the ban" might not be the right thing to do right now.... we dont even know if there is gonna be a ban....
>>
>>maybe right now we should be focused on convincing whoever ne need to convince that a ban wouldnt solve anything. and if they (whoever they are) are still in need of a solution, THATS when we need to put something together and offer an allternitive
>>
>>what do ya think?
>>-----
>>-Stephen-
>>
>>0.1 soon to be wifey (hopefully)
>>1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer-wifey's pooch)
>>1.0 norm corn (Jake aka grumpy old terdhead)
>>0.1 col redtail boa (Dixie-my baby girl)
>>0.1 ball python (Bella- wifey's baby girl)
>>
>>hopeful for not to distant future:
>>--brazillian rainbow boas 1 female for sure
>> 2 or 3? maybe a breeding pair?
>>-- bearded dragon for the wifey my list got to big...
>>
>>more distant future hopefuls
>>1 or 2 of each maybe a breeding pair?
>>--anery boa (ooooh)
>>--jungle carpet python (love to have 1 or 2)
>>--dumeril boa (ahhhh)
>>
>>slightly more wishful thinking
>>--hypo br rainbow boa (love em)
>>--anery br rainbow boa (oooh even better!!)
>>--motely boa (gorgeous!!)

to many animals being produced leads to them ending up in the wild? wtf?

the animals that are ending up in the wild are the large lizards and pythons that "white trash" buy to impress their friends with when they go to the beach.

it has nothing to do with to many animals being produced.

as far as a "carbon credit" type system? please......

....U.S. Fish and Wildlife are idiots. Only idiots would want to do something that could eventually shut down a nationwide multi billion dollar industry because Burmese Pythons and a few other exotic reptiles are a problem in southern Florida. If this goes through like it is written and is fully enforced it will eventually kill this hobby. So much for our liberties and the pursuit of our happiness.
....This is what I think would actually happen if the Fish and Wildlife proposal goes thru as now written. There would be a large increase in the already large part of the reptile hobby and business that is underground. Instead of large dealers and large shows there will be lots more small dealers and small shows. The small dealers will buy from breeders at those shows and take the animals across state lines and sell them to other small dealers. Instead of buying from someone across the country people will go to small local shows and buy from local breeders and unscrupulous dealers pretending to be local breeders. The small dealers already know how to pretend to be breeders at shows and so this will not be a big challenge for them. The overall effect will be that big breeders and big dealers and big shows and consumers will be hurt and the small dealers and promoters of small shows will profit. The person hurt the very most by this would be the hobbyist in some place like Wyoming where there are few if any breeders for some species and few or no dealers or shows. This is especially ironic because the cold of a Wyoming winter would kill any and all escaped or released exotic reptiles.
....Florida is where the injurious reptile problem is and Florida Fish and Game has already taken measures to control it. The Feds should butt out and let the Floridians solve their problem. If released or escaped boids start to be a problem somewhere else in the country let the local authorities do what is needed to control the problem.
Just my very opinionated opinions,
Jeff

>>EVERYONE needs o get theirs butts to the opening page of Kingsnake.com and follow the link regarding the Feds banning Boas & Pythons.
>>
>>This is gogint o be one of the most serious attacks on our hobby yet, so everyone needs to do their part. It may require you writing a physical letter, making a few phone calls and doing it more than twice.
>>
>>We need to all band together and make something happen.
>>
>>We have until April 30th, from now till then send multiple messages of disagreement, contact as many people as you can, and raise hell.
>>
>>
>>Please remember to be polite, sounding crazy does not help our cause.
>>
>>Contact your local congressman and senators. If you know any out side your area that woudl also help.
>>
>>
>>Good luck and lets fight!
>>
>>Jon

I pretty much agree with everything you and Sean said, but what really baffles me is *why* this federal legislation is even being considered? I'm certainly not a card-carrying, pro big-gov't liberal, but I'm not a fanatical anti-gov't right winger either.
But stuff like this makes me understand those who are the latter.
Is there a hidden agenda here somewhere? Job security for USFWS employees???

There's all sorts of irony here. Domestic dogs and cats surely cause orders of magnitude more "injury" to humans and indigenous
wildlife in Florida than released boas/pythons. And there's one species that causes even more damage to not only the Everglades, but everyhwere... Homo sapiens.

I'm glad my federal tax money is going towards stupidity like this...

Thanks,
Ed

>>....U.S. Fish and Wildlife are idiots. Only idiots would want to do something that could eventually shut down a nationwide multi billion dollar industry because Burmese Pythons and a few other exotic reptiles are a problem in southern Florida. If this goes through like it is written and is fully enforced it will eventually kill this hobby. So much for our liberties and the pursuit of our happiness.
>>....This is what I think would actually happen if the Fish and Wildlife proposal goes thru as now written. There would be a large increase in the already large part of the reptile hobby and business that is underground. Instead of large dealers and large shows there will be lots more small dealers and small shows. The small dealers will buy from breeders at those shows and take the animals across state lines and sell them to other small dealers. Instead of buying from someone across the country people will go to small local shows and buy from local breeders and unscrupulous dealers pretending to be local breeders. The small dealers already know how to pretend to be breeders at shows and so this will not be a big challenge for them. The overall effect will be that big breeders and big dealers and big shows and consumers will be hurt and the small dealers and promoters of small shows will profit. The person hurt the very most by this would be the hobbyist in some place like Wyoming where there are few if any breeders for some species and few or no dealers or shows. This is especially ironic because the cold of a Wyoming winter would kill any and all escaped or released exotic reptiles.
>>....Florida is where the injurious reptile problem is and Florida Fish and Game has already taken measures to control it. The Feds should butt out and let the Floridians solve their problem. If released or escaped boids start to be a problem somewhere else in the country let the local authorities do what is needed to control the problem.
>>Just my very opinionated opinions,
>>Jeff
>>

why are they doing this? Three reasons these things happen:
1. person in charge who presents change is arrogant, and thrives off the feeling of power they get from doing something that affects millions.
2. person is a bigot.
3. person is a hypocrite.

Usually, the person responsible has all three wonderful qualities. Unfortunately, you see this constantly in BOTH major political parties, but it still aways amazes me how the democrates(liberals) will always stand up and promote freedom as their number one objective, then they turn around and propose laws that tell you what you can own as pets, tell you what to eat, take your guns away, tell you how to raise your children, etc. etc. When all is said and done, and the candidates quit running their mouths, one thing will be constant...democrats are for increasing federal control while republicans (for the most part) try to leave things up to the individual person or state, which is the fundalmental element of the Constitution. Look at all the laws and bans that would limit/end personal freedoms, and look at who sponsors them.
-----
-David

Check out my pet pics at:
http://www.myspace.com/obx_fisherman

1.0 ball python (Pandora - don't ask)
1.0 argentine boa (Prometheus)
0.1 hogg island boa (Andromeda)
0.0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (Inara)
1.0 kenyan sand boa (Diablo)
1.0 normal corn snake(Cypress)
0.1 amel. corn snake (Morgan LaFay) RIP
0.0.2 baby corns (Romulus and Remus)
- 1 normal, 1 ghost
0.0.1 banded cali. kingsnake (Cain)
1.0 tangerine honduran milksnake (Narcissus)
0.0.1 snow corn snake (Valkyrie)
1.0 amazon tree boa (Pegasus)
1.0 colombian boa (Athena, for now)
0.1 albino san diego gopher snake (maybe Octavian)
0.0.1 sandfish skink (Slick)
0.0.1 fire skink (Phoenix)
1.0 dog (Luke)

the wife's pets:
1.0 bearded dragon (Leonidas)
1.1 ferrets (Ares, Enyo)
1.2 cats (Galahad, Ripley and Sassy)
0.1 Boxer (Zoe)
2.0 rats

NEWEST ADDITIONS:
1.0 adult Dumeril's boa (maybe Hannibel)
0.0.1 baby yellow amazon tree boa (affectionately called
Snuggles)

i agree with you dave!! it wasnt allwasy like that but mordern day democrats are pushing this country closer and closer to communism!!! yeah just sit back and let the government run your life....

im not saying republicans are perfect but they are ALOT closer to running things the way the country was founded

but all that aside this is a snake forum lets just focus on what we have to do to keep the herp industry alive
lol viva la revolutian lol sorry couldnt resist
-----
-Stephen-

0.1 soon to be wifey (hopefully)
1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer-wifey's pooch)
1.0 norm corn (Jake aka grumpy old terdhead)
0.1 col redtail boa (Dixie-my baby girl)
0.1 ball python (Bella- wifey's baby girl)

hopeful for not to distant future:
--brazillian rainbow boas 1 female for sure
2 or 3? maybe a breeding pair?
-- bearded dragon for the wifey my list got to big...

more distant future hopefuls
1 or 2 of each maybe a breeding pair?
--anery boa (ooooh)
--jungle carpet python (love to have 1 or 2)
--dumeril boa (ahhhh)

slightly more wishful thinking
--hypo br rainbow boa (love em)
--anery br rainbow boa (oooh even better!!)
--motely boa (gorgeous!!)

Its this simple the many are being punished becuase of the few. The few will still do things "illegally" anyway when its all said and done thus has no matter to them.

Dogs are being trained to kill yet you will never hear anyone talking about placing bans even on the subspecies bred to fight, why? Why should herp keepers be any different they anyone else in the pet hobby? Why our are pets trying to become outlawed?

This law is an attack on our freedom and people need to take a stand!

I have kept Boas and Pythons ALL MY LIFE since I was 10 years old this law is ridiculous and needs to be fought to preserver our right and our freedom, this isn't American and it isn't just, this is stupidity at its best.
-----
Jason A.
"Long time Herper, first year Breeder `07."
My 2008 Care Sheet & The BRB Stats. Username: brb@kingsnake.com

This proposed "ban" on transporting Boas and Pythons ticks me off as much as anyone else, but something smells here. When I first read the questions they wanted answers for, I thought they sounded a bit wierd. Here they are:

(1) What regulations does your State
have pertaining to the use, transport, or
production of Python, Boa and Eunectes
genera?
(2) How many species in the Python,
Boa and Eunectes genera are currently
in production for wholesale or retail
sale, and in how many and which
States?
(3) How many businesses sell Python,
Boa or Eunectes species?
(4) How many businesses breed
Python, Boa or Eunectes species?
(5) What are the annual sales for
Python, Boa or Eunectes species?
(6) Please provide the number of
Python, Boa or Eunectes species, if any,
permitted within each State.
(7) What would it cost to eradicate
Python, Boa or Eunectes individuals or
populations, or similar species, if
found?
(8) What are the costs of
implementing propagation, recovery,
and restoration programs for native
species that are affected by Python, Boa
or Eunectes species, or similar snake
species?
(9) What State-listed species would be
impacted by the introduction of Python,
Boa or Eunectes species?
(10) What species have been
impacted, and how, by Python, Boa or
Eunectes species?

Many of them are asking for information pertaining the money... basically how much money are people making off of these animals? I may be way off target here, but I am wondering if this isn't some sort of sneaky way of gathering information on the snake market that is obviously growing very fast, so they can see if they can get their paws on some of that cash. Perhaps this "ban" is just to scare us into "compromising" for permits or licensure. Then we would be "happy" to have permits and such rather than the ban, and the Feds would be happy because they have another source of revenue.

Like I said, I could be way off here, but it's just another way of looking at it.

-----
Aubrey Ross

©
www.SlipstreamSerpents.com

Good point Aubrey,
I have not read through the response thing yet(hopefully later today) but those questions would definitely raise two thoughts to my mind. The first is what you mentioned about surveying the buisness end(maybee to see how much of it is under the table since the official sales records are available). Secondly, why are they asking statistical/legal questions that your average citizen is very unlikely to know? Is it for awareness or to minimize responses or some other reason?

Either way I think the potential even of a bann should be opposed as strenuously as we can.

Sean.
-----
1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

Hey Aubrey,

Glad you posted this. I read these questions the other day, and just scratched my head. They are ridiculous. Who is the audience that is supposed to be addressing these questions, some of which no one would be able to answer. There's no logic to any of this, assuming it's on the up-and-up. So your suspicions might be accurate.

I love these:

"(7) What would it cost to eradicate
Python, Boa or Eunectes individuals or
populations, or similar species, if
found?"

"(8) What are the costs of
implementing propagation, recovery,
and restoration programs for native
species that are affected by Python, Boa
or Eunectes species, or similar snake
species?"

How is *anyone* supposed to answer those questions??
Cost to eradicate/capture an individual, escaped boa?? $7.59?
Heck, I'll do it for free. Actually, this is a non issue
in most states, the snakes wouldn't survive for very long.

This one is a beauty also:

9) What State-listed species would be
impacted by the introduction of Python,
Boa or Eunectes species?

Well, duh, they are large constrictors. You'd think the USFWS
would have a clue what large constrictors eat. My 8 year old
knows how to do an internet search to find out what different
types of boids eat. And what about the positive effects escaped
boids might have, such as eating rodents and/or stray cats that destroy "State-listed" species?

Funny how they don't even ask if a tropical snake would survive
in most states.

I'm going to submit my feedback, but given the way the USFWS
is handling this, I'm not optimistic. They just assume there is a national problem and make the public do the research to "prove" there *isn't* a problem???

Unreal.

Regarding the questions on sales figures, let's just hope they are asking that to determine that the proposed legislation would
hurt a lot of businesses.

Thanks,
Ed

>>This proposed "ban" on transporting Boas and Pythons ticks me off as much as anyone else, but something smells here. When I first read the questions they wanted answers for, I thought they sounded a bit wierd. Here they are:
>>
>>(1) What regulations does your State
>>have pertaining to the use, transport, or
>>production of Python, Boa and Eunectes
>>genera?
>>(2) How many species in the Python,
>>Boa and Eunectes genera are currently
>>in production for wholesale or retail
>>sale, and in how many and which
>>States?
>>(3) How many businesses sell Python,
>>Boa or Eunectes species?
>>(4) How many businesses breed
>>Python, Boa or Eunectes species?
>>(5) What are the annual sales for
>>Python, Boa or Eunectes species?
>>(6) Please provide the number of
>>Python, Boa or Eunectes species, if any,
>>permitted within each State.
>>(7) What would it cost to eradicate
>>Python, Boa or Eunectes individuals or
>>populations, or similar species, if
>>found?
>>(8) What are the costs of
>>implementing propagation, recovery,
>>and restoration programs for native
>>species that are affected by Python, Boa
>>or Eunectes species, or similar snake
>>species?
>>(9) What State-listed species would be
>>impacted by the introduction of Python,
>>Boa or Eunectes species?
>>(10) What species have been
>>impacted, and how, by Python, Boa or
>>Eunectes species?
>>
>>Many of them are asking for information pertaining the money... basically how much money are people making off of these animals? I may be way off target here, but I am wondering if this isn't some sort of sneaky way of gathering information on the snake market that is obviously growing very fast, so they can see if they can get their paws on some of that cash. Perhaps this "ban" is just to scare us into "compromising" for permits or licensure. Then we would be "happy" to have permits and such rather than the ban, and the Feds would be happy because they have another source of revenue.
>>
>>Like I said, I could be way off here, but it's just another way of looking at it.
>>
>>
>>-----
>>Aubrey Ross
>>
>>©
>>www.SlipstreamSerpents.com

You guys, maybe I'm waaaay off, but these questions sound perfectly legitimate to me. It feels like FWS is trying to get a feel for how many of these animals are produced vs. how many move into new homes. Honestly, I think it's very important that we get an estimate of just how many snakes are out there. When they ask about the annual sales of the three genera, I don't think they are referring to dollars. they want to know numbers. When they ask about cost of eradication...this is VERY important to consider. Maybe I don't know the answer, but if someone does, they realy need to comment on this. If eradication is easy and cheap, we are less likely to be faced with a ban. The last three questions want to know what kind of trouble or native ecosystems could be facing should an invasion occur.

This is the kind of data I was talking about in my original post.
-----
Mike Lockwood
www.tooscaley.com

definitely looking at it from a different perspective then some of us were commenting on.

The questions are fine and appropriate if you were asking them of USFWS or some other company/agency which could possibly have that kind of statistical information. For instance I would expect it in a commity hearing with business/agency experts on hand. But I agree that if someone could give accurate answers to those questions then it would be at least informative and potentially very helpful/useful.

The reason some of us question the appropriateness/intention of these questions is that they are not within the scope of knowledge of the average citizen, hobbiest, or even herp resaler. Any response given by 99% or more of the potential responders would be nothing more then a relatively uneducated guess. Even people who might have a inside source for accurate information for one of those questions is still unlikely to be able to answer all of them accurately.

I still think we should given clear polite responses and suggest what we think/guess/hope would work best and in what way. But that being said I still think that at the very least they did not think about who they were addressing en masse or the way in which they were asking.

Sean
-----
1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

Hey Mike,

You're not crazy, but it's not just the questions per se. The
way this whole thing is being presented, at least to me, is a-- backwards. This is the US FISH and WILDLIFE SERVICE! Why the
heck are they asking questions that they should be able to
answer on an obscure website that maybe .0000001% of the population is going to see? And that .0000001% won't be able to
answer the questions anyway. Why didn't they just assign a few agents to do the research (ie, contact state wildlife agencies) first, and then, only if they conclude there is a problem, announce that these snakes are being considered by the legislation? And as far as an invasion goes, I agree those
questions have limited merit, but in the majority of states tropical snakes will not survive very long. Surely the USFWS knows that!

Anyway, my $.02.

BTW, everyone on this forum is crazy to some extent...

Thanks,
Ed

>>You guys, maybe I'm waaaay off, but these questions sound perfectly legitimate to me. It feels like FWS is trying to get a feel for how many of these animals are produced vs. how many move into new homes. Honestly, I think it's very important that we get an estimate of just how many snakes are out there. When they ask about the annual sales of the three genera, I don't think they are referring to dollars. they want to know numbers. When they ask about cost of eradication...this is VERY important to consider. Maybe I don't know the answer, but if someone does, they realy need to comment on this. If eradication is easy and cheap, we are less likely to be faced with a ban. The last three questions want to know what kind of trouble or native ecosystems could be facing should an invasion occur.
>>
>>This is the kind of data I was talking about in my original post.
>>-----
>>Mike Lockwood
>>www.tooscaley.com

Also, keep in mind that it's already against the law to
release exotic/pet animals into the wild.

Thanks,
Ed

this is one crazy a-- thing happening Ed. Suprised others haven't chimed in but I do believe that something should have been organized a long time ago with breeders especially, pet stores, snake keepers.................. Breeders have everything to lose in this and yes customers who like nice things also but who has the other guys dollar in his pocket at the end of the day. I'm not blaiming any of this on the breeers but the big time guys like BC, PK, TB and others especially the people having 250 litters a year in a snake and rodent facility. They should have seen this coming and taking steps to prevent this. I truly believe pet stores have a lot to blaim in this equation cuz they sell a burmese, retic, rock or anaconda (don't know the other one, hell I don't know if I have those right lol) to a teenager or 18 year old and then after feeding it which is why they buy it and to show their friends. Then they have a big ole' snake that nobody wants and they can't feed cuz they are broke a-- teenagers and can't adopt it out cuz 5 idiots from the year before did the same thing so he lets it go and it eats a neighborhood pet or makes the 6 o'clock news so everyone keeping snakes is to blame. Hell when you see a car chase and the car loses control, is it the cars fault that it couldn't keep traction or the dumb a-- behind the wheel. We go after the person which is what should be done with releasing pets in the wild too, very strict fines like either give us 50k or a 2 year minimum prison sentence stupid So a mandatory microchip for the big boys. When I see the number of snakes produced like colombian orange tails being produced it makes me sick to my stomach only to realize that the brb's are coming around the corner. BRB's are not hard to keep for the right person but many many many die every year from keeper errors and if everyone breeds their snakes then where will they go, if they don't sell to individuals then they may very well go to close pet shops or get wholesaled off which is where the problem begins. Some wholesaling is good but not when the number is say 1,000 snakes in the 48 states, number is prolly off but it popped in my head. If snakes are not being bred for quality and instead are being bred for numbers in hopes of making a friggin' dollar then play the stock market where animal lives aren't involved. I can understand that say a normal colored brb from Dave would want to be bred cuz it has Savannah's dna, Daisey's dna......... but not when you see a brb for real cheap in a pet store and get thinking that she is already grown up I just have to mate her and I get babies (make sense prolly not but then again I rarely do)

I don't think the microchipping the big boys will be fool proof but will help and ones the who get caught for PRODUCING illegal clutches face serious penalties like having your caging, snakes and equipment confiscated, fined 100k and/or 4 years of jail time. That is not worth the risk in my opinion. I kind of like the fact that Mike said you had to buy a certain number of animals to produce that given year and it would be very hard to guesstimate especially if one slugged out and then if it were paid for by money than breeders would have the edge so that would have to be regulated from inside the snake community not the government on who could produce how many. I kind of like the idea of something like the AKC with people being associated with it and their animals but it would have to flexed a little cuz the only thing about a locked gene pool is that no new creations would be allowed in which would have to be changed. But at the end of the day the name kind of sells itself (lipstick, pastel....) as opposed to the animal doing the selling so if you produce nice offspring from nice parents then they will sell and if you use something with some quality then it will show. I strolled o/t again my bad but really can't help it.

Yes everyone should write letters including snake keepers of one snake or 800 of those bad boys. It is very hard to answer those ?'s as the average person like myself has no idea so I need guidance but it is not the end of the world like people seem but a reality check and a good one cuz any publicity from a snake is a bad one unfortunately

hope I didn't rub anyone the wrong way and I'm not an arguing type of guy, believe it or not I chose NOT to be on the debate team so don't ream me a new one cuz I'm not gonna respond, I'll leave that to JC on the boa forum
Bob

whoa hey now Bob dont be shy tell us how you really feel lol dont hold back lol are you breathing now do we need to take your blood pressure? lol just giving ya a hard time
-----
-Stephen-

0.1 soon to be wifey (hopefully)
1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer-wifey's pooch)
1.0 norm corn (Jake aka grumpy old terdhead)
0.1 col redtail boa (Dixie-my baby girl)
0.1 ball python (Bella- wifey's baby girl)

hopeful for not to distant future:
--brazillian rainbow boas 1 female for sure
2 or 3? maybe a breeding pair?
-- bearded dragon for the wifey my list got to big...

more distant future hopefuls
1 or 2 of each maybe a breeding pair?
--anery boa (ooooh)
--jungle carpet python (love to have 1 or 2)
--dumeril boa (ahhhh)

slightly more wishful thinking
--hypo br rainbow boa (love em)
--anery br rainbow boa (oooh even better!!)
--motely boa (gorgeous!!)

Mike,
....When anyone talks about working with US Fish and Wildlife and cooperating with them on a system to regulate and control boid breeding it gets my hackles up. US Fish and Wildlife CANNOT BE TRUSTED. The proposal as it reads is designed to destroy your hobby. They would be very happy to destroy your hobby. If you cooperate with them on a compromise where they control what snakes you can breed and have an inventory of what you have and can produce they will come to your house some day and confiscate and destroy all of your animals. That is what they want to do. If they did not want that they never would have come up with this rediculous proposal. They are using the problem with exotics in southern Florida to leverage their effort to end boid breeding all over the country. Exotic plants like Brazilian Peppers, Autralian Pines and Punk Trees are a problem in southern Florida that is a magnitude of 1000 times more serious than the Burmese Python problem. They are spending hundreds of millions of dollars trying to eradicate introduced exotic plants. The federal governmant has made no effort to shut down the importers and growers of the exotic plants and yet NOW are trying to shut down the breeding of boids all across the country it makes no sense except that they want to kill our hobby. DO NOT COOPERATE WITH THEM AND PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO.
Jeff Clark

>>You guys, maybe I'm waaaay off, but these questions sound perfectly legitimate to me. It feels like FWS is trying to get a feel for how many of these animals are produced vs. how many move into new homes. Honestly, I think it's very important that we get an estimate of just how many snakes are out there. When they ask about the annual sales of the three genera, I don't think they are referring to dollars. they want to know numbers. When they ask about cost of eradication...this is VERY important to consider. Maybe I don't know the answer, but if someone does, they realy need to comment on this. If eradication is easy and cheap, we are less likely to be faced with a ban. The last three questions want to know what kind of trouble or native ecosystems could be facing should an invasion occur.
>>
>>This is the kind of data I was talking about in my original post.
>>-----
>>Mike Lockwood
>>www.tooscaley.com

I have stayed relatively quiet as this has unfolded. Trying to get a feel and a grasp of what is really going on.

IMO many are correct that there is a hidden (or not so hidden) agenda but I also think many are missing a point. The REAL, TRUE AGENDA IS...

TO ELIMINATE THE KEEPING OF OUR ANIMALS AS PETS!!

We are but one front on their all out attacks. Do not fool yourselves, this proposed ban while many think is ludicrous is only a BEGINNING in their minds. Were this ban to pass, they would immediately turn their attention to adding more to it. Adding species, adding registration and permit processes. (as difficult of a permit process as they could to prevent some from even trying) BANNING ANY AND ALL BREEDING? Mandatory sterilization of captive animals?

Even if /when this interstate transportation ban does not pass I agree they already have a much less restrictive one to offer as a compromise. THAT COMPROMISE would be a "foot in the door" once passed, I am CERTAIN they would begin efforts to give this weaker compromise some real teeth. Again, adding species, broadening it's scope until they had the ban they originally started with and MORE!
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats