Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I am not sure if this has been posted here on the Ball Forum or not so here it is:

Fish and Wildlife is investigating the possibility of making it illegal to sell and Boa or Python across state lines in the United States. Read more details at the following link:

NEWS FLASH!

The link can also be found at the top of this page.

My question is this? Isn't there something real we can do to organize and make it easier for everyone, and I mean everyone, to make a real written expression of their concern about such an action? Perhaps a sample letter that could be printed, signed and send into to Fish and Wildlife? An on-line petition?

Perhaps more detailed responses from "experts" who would explain the fact that nearly all Boas and Pythons would not have any chance of surviving in the continental United States. The only exception perhaps being some parts of the southern half of Florida. Boas for one just would not survive with that possible exception. So why the concern about "interstate commerce" of Boas?

I will write a letter but I would like to see so much more done. A more concerted effort to make it easy for folks to write without feeling intimidated by the process. Without that feeling that one little letter can't make that much difference. Perhaps some way to show accountability of each and every one of us.

I am willing to write, testify or whatever, at my expense to help persuade those who will make this decision. I just think that there really needs to be a huge outpouring of the defense of our first hobby and second businesses that we virtually all are in on at one level or another.

What are we doing? Let's do something NOW!

Jeff Ronne Sr.
The Boaphile
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Boaphile Home
All Original/Boaphile Plastics
The Boa Network

Read my post further down the forum...This is nothing more than a phishing trip for revenue.

Start writing. I'll sign just like John Hancock!!!!

I have created an online petition - http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/boasandpythonsban/
You can sign your name (or choose to be anonymous), leave comments, and email this petition to others to sign. I can edit the title of the petition (but I am limited to the amount of characters - this was all I could squeeze in - "The proposed USF&W ban on Boas and Pythons". I can also edit the description of the petition (but I am limited to 1,000 words) if there is anything that needs to be changed.

I think this is only one step of many that needs to be taken to avoid this from passing into law.
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Kevin Blumenthal
www.blumenboas.com

Why?

There is one way that they are accepting comments and information - via mail and with the appropriate information - by creating electronic petitions you are just demonstrating how you can't follow directions and they aren't going to address it - especially if it's electronic and anonymous.
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Tosha
JET Pythons

I think Tosha's right. We'll get better responses with letters or even phone calls.

Quig
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Don't interupt me when I'm talkin' to myself

I think that we need to write letters... real letters to both the USF&WS and to our congressmen. Email is actually not very effective by comparison. It is too easy to delete or ignore incoming email.

However, having their physical mailboxes flooded with letters is MUCH more noticeable and having a physical pile of letters is much harder to ignore.

They don't have to be hand written, typing them up and printing them out should serve just fine. Just remember to remain as professional as possible. Emotion is fine... but there is no need to call names or point fingers.

Another thing I think some people may be missing: if you do decide to contact the various "powers that be" there is no reason you need to stop at one letter. You can write several - just don't spam them with the same letter over and over again, but you can write several letters looking at the problem from several different viewpoints. Try to offer possible solutions and alternatives... people are much more receptive to your ideas if you are attempting to work with them instead of just saying "Don't do it."

This can and will affect many parts of the trade - let them know that.

- All shipping companies
- Equipment manufacturers
- Live and frozen prey breeders
- Supply companies
- Hobbyists, pet owners, professional breeders
- Many internet businesses
- Rack and enclosure companies
- Any company involved in Displays, Signs, Expos, Shows etc.
- Think of how much business the various hotels and motels get in Florida every year around the time of F.I.R.E. - now think of every other show throughout the country

By limiting commerce to in-state sales only this will affect every part of the hobby. Some businesses may not feel the repercussions immediately but they will notice a slow drain on their business eventually.

Which would you rather have your tax money spent on: Prosecuting a meth-dealer or that guy who drove over the border with a python in a deli cup? The more time or money that is spent on your boids the less will be spent on REAL crime.

I would sign such a petition and I'm sure alot of other Canadian reptile Breedershobbyists would do so aswell.

Similar proposed legislation is happening hear in Canada aswell.
The government of British Columbia is looking at revising our native wildlife act,and now certain fanatical groups such as the BCSPCA and Humane society are trying to further their agenda by wanting to have ALL exotics banned.

I wish you all luck with your situation and I will post any progress on our end that could help set precidence for our cause.

Take care,

Joe.

the powers that be obviously feel that theres a problem with large and not even so large boas and pythons ending up in places they shouldnt and in hands they shouldnt,,,,,,,they need to be educated by those who are educated in these animals as to what can and should be done to prevent their worries from coming true and or explaining that the threats they DO feel are there are not warranted......all this "we are gonna turn into a third world country and our economy will dry up with the job loss and moneys lost" talk is not gonna get anything done.........does anyone here have even a clue how many TENS OF THOUSANDS of american jobs have been lost for no other reason then greed,,,,,,companies leaving our shores and hiring children and or underpaid workers....how many breeders and or suppliers who do sell across state lines are even on their radar through lets say the IRS as being a tax paying snake breeder who sells across state lines.....do you feel that number or AMERICAN jobs is going to stop them from fixing a problem THEY FEEL THEY HAVE.........they are doing what they are because they feel they have a problem......to work that problem out with them and make it work for all TO INCLUDE THE ANIMALS is the only way this will all get resolved for the best......how many people so far on the thread below have said this is a MULTI billion dollar industry......there is not even a remote chance that it is or ever will be a MULTI BILLION dollar industry as far as the selling and shipping of these particular animals over state lines is concerned,,,,,,,,think about the number "ONE BILLION",,,,,,that means there are for easy arguments sake 1000 people making one million a year selling these animals across state lines.......or maybe its 4000 people making 250K a year...i seriously hope that nobody borrowed on their homes with those numbers in their head...........and thats JUST ONE billion...not multi billion....FED EX,UPS,the pet stores,cage makers,rodents supliers and everyone else will not crumble under this......the people who earn their livings in the sale of the animals themselves will feel it worst for sure........im not for it in anyway but i seriously hope a lot of these encouraged letters being sent arent filling them with uneducated ZILLION TRILLION dollar quotes and turning them off to the people who need to be and should be heard........time will tell good luck to all.....sorry for the super long post......oh and sorry a lot of this is towards things ive read not just in the thread above me but the ones below and on other boards as well.........again good luck...Jerry

I understand what you are trying to say, but the problem is that you are not offering any other solutions. All you are saying is that no one is going to care about our plight so we may as well not even try. Apathy is definitely NOT the answer.
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Ryan Sherman
Scottsdale, Arizona
www.ThePaintedPython.com

We should at the same time take steps to keep these animals out of the hands of irresponsible people. In my opinion large constrictors did not get out in the wild by swimming to the US. Dont get me wrong I am so agents any more regulation but we have to think of this both ways. I am sure if I were not into snakes and live in for example Florida I would worry to. I have 2 small children and we have enough to worry about other than watching for Pythons while our kids are playing in the yard.
Foot Hill Reptiles

I will admit i don't know the exact numbers, but the herp trade as a whole is pretty significant. Think of all the traders, importers, and dealers that send stuff to the US. Also all of the other species that people work with and sell. I think it could have a huge economic impact. This law will have other effects like causing more forclosures and such. There are many people that rely on this hobby as a sole source of income. In this current housing market it will be tough to sell a house you can longer make payments on. This law certainly will not help stimulate the economy... that I know to be a fact!

That being said, I agree that we need hard numbers before making any specific statements about this being a billion or million dollar industry. Problem is I don't know where to begin to gather that kind of info...
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OZZYBOIDS

I think you would be really surprised at the money that is involved and will be impacted with this change. I for one sold over a 1/4 million dollars worth of rodents last year. This is a documented fact and I pay taxes on it. My feed bill runs $6,000 to $7,000 a month for the rodent food. Now I have not even touched of our reptile business. Or the employees I hire. And I am a small rodent breeder. So when you figure money that will be impacted in this industry you need to look at the whole picture. What about the Shows and the hotels. This is big.

and are the animals you sold those rodents to feed NOT going to eat should there be a ban........of course there is a trickle and people will yes be effected.......so then go ahead and use that and not education as the basis of your fight and see how fast it works......do you honestly feel the government will put the well being of snake breeders,snake sellers,and rodent breeders above their own fears.........sorry not a chance.......im on your side beleive me.......but everyone needs a slice of humble pie .....they will not put their fears aside for your well being......make their fears go away and the problem will be solved

They should be afraid of the mass release as the market collapses in high production states with no legal interstate outlet.

Find out how much the Everglades Burmese Pythons are really breeding vs. new releases and we might be able to calm their fear through the Florida transponder program others have reported which will give great incentive to prevent new releases. If each Burmese python can be traced back to its original seller then each seller has great incentive to see that the records get updated every time it changes hands and no owner of record should consider release. Not saying it’s fun or right to pay fees to have Big Brother watching over everyone’s shoulder but it sounds like it has a much better chance of solving this problem than an over zealous ban on interstate transport of all boids does.

"They should be afraid of the mass release as the market collapses in high production states with no legal interstate outlet"

well all i can say to that is

ANYONE who would release their collections because they cant sell them across state lines is A MUTT and has NO BUSSINESS caring for these snakes in the first place PERIOD.

I bet a HUGE percentage of people who do this do NOT claim any of this on their taxes. We're going to open a bad can of worms if we start playing the numbers game.

How can we have a legitimate voice politically if so much of the business is not legitimate? VERY DISSAPOINTING!
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Kyle
www.royalvariations.com

"be safe, be happy and dont let anyone make you afraid" David Coverdale

We will not be taken seriously if we do not become legitimate. It will cost you more in the long run if you do not claim the income and take off the expenses than it will if you keep quite and hide in fear.

I pay my taxes, I own a legitimate business. I recommend everyone do the same if you have not already. We must be taken seriously as a business! We need law makers not law breakers!
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Kyle
www.royalvariations.com

"be safe, be happy and dont let anyone make you afraid" David Coverdale

I am a very very small time breeder of Corn Snakes. I do my taxes properly every year. I always come out in the negative but still do it, why? Because I am a law abiding person that runs a legit opporation. Hopefully I can start showing a profit soon but until then I will pay my taxes with a smile on my face.
Foot Hill Reptiles

I know what you mean. Its not always easy but it is worth it.

Good luck with your season and continued success to you and your business.
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Kyle
www.royalvariations.com

"be safe, be happy and dont let anyone make you afraid" David Coverdale

most breeders who are making any serious money are as well. There may be a couple of small hobbyist who don't, but I think most do. For those who don't that's on them...
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OZZYBOIDS

Oz,

Well said.

It is scary how laws could affect so easily our business. Sort of like the frog in the boiling water. I know allot of GREAT people in this business who have put many years of amazing work and effort into it. I know you know them also including yourself. We must take this opportunity to protect our business and the enthusiast.
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Kyle
www.royalvariations.com

"be safe, be happy and dont let anyone make you afraid" David Coverdale

but you know what,,,,,the actual numbers that are out there and the only ones that matter in their eyes.......the actual jobs reported as being jobs where taxes are paid are FAR FAR apart from each other,,,,,,,,im telling you the crying of job and money loss will do nothing,,,,,,,,,what needs to be done is find out ok why do you not want these animals crossing state lines......and or any other restrictions on the table.......then education as to why it is not as bad a problem as they may think and there may not even be a possability of what they think can happen.......there will never be killer snakes eating people off the slopes of colorodo or coming up from under the sewers in manhattan eating homeless........i dont know their reasons and im sure those arent them but im saying that is the basis for fighting it is to actually fight the fight presented.............good luck to all

Every single question that the proposed ban is asking is dealing with the money side of things. The folks proposing the ban are asking if there will be a significant economical impact.

It's not that we're that focused on money, it's that the ban is asking, specifically, what the economic value is compared to the potential damage to the ecosystem.

Yes, we do need scientific backing to prove that our species are not going to be able to colonize and do well here in the United States, but we also need the business numbers to show that there is indeed a significant impact.

Go back and look at the ban - they are asking about money, not about how much we know about our animals. Proving that the vocal part of the hobby knows more than the congressmen do about boas and pythons is not going to really change their minds like showing them the potential damage to the economy.

~jenny
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"Polysyllabism in no way insures that what you're saying is actually worth being heard." - Blake (an e-friend of mine)

"I have never made but one prayer to god, a very short one: "O lord, make my enemies ridiculous." And he granted it." - Voltaire

yes and how much REPORTED money do you feel is out there which is from nothing but the interstate sales of these animals,,,,,,nowere even close to the numbers people are claiming and it never will be......how many of the companies who DO actually report their income have hired staff who are on the books and who pay into social security and unemployment insurance and medical benefits,,,,,,,,THOSE are real actual by the book companies..........they have their own agenda as far as why they want those numbers because what does it have to do with these animals being safe or not,,,,,,if they are not a threat they should not be banned whether they bring NO money or not and if something IS a threat it should be banned no matter how much money it DOES bring in,,,,,,,,,,they are no threat common sence says let it go .....but we all know why that wont work.....because politics and common sence have NOTHING to do with eath other

Nationwide, the most effective lobbying arm of the pet industry. This will directly and negatively affect the majority of PIJAC's membership.

http://www.pijac.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=1
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Brad Chambers

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

It is time for the herp community as a whole to organize and support a real organization. a true reptile keepers association that is more than just a show. An organization with legal and lobby power to look out for our concerns.

While this one may not go through there will be others. Time to stand up and make our voice heard.
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Dan S.
Crotalus & Company-- Captive Bred Reptiles
Venom-Center -- Venomous Community
Wisconsin Reptile Community
Hybrid Herps-- Hybrid Community