Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Here's a pair I had approx 25 years ago. From Chorro Canyon

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http://www.hcu-tx.org
http://www.kingsnake.com/mexicana/
http://www.joeforks.com

Those are sweet Joe. Dan Vermilya told me his line of white thayeri were decended from Chorro Canyon stock. I can see the resemblance in the light ground color and almost greeri like markings of yours.

Greg

That first one is awesome looking
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Positive Thoughts Equal Positive Results

Joe, those are beautiful, do you still have any of their offspring or know if any of them are around anymore.
Thanks for sharing the photo's
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Michelle
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful:
The Lord God made them all.

Wow Joe, I love that amazing grey or silver background color. Very cool.
Russ

I also agree, that light one is fantastic!

Did they come from the Dallas Zoo (Dave Barker) stock by any chance?
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Maria

Alaska Reptiles

"Life is like a box of thayeri eggs..."

Those are nice. I too am curious as to the history behind them. Where is Chorro Cyn?

these were Dallas Zoo stock via armstrong, mitchell, or barker. It's been so long ago I don't remember exactly how I got them, but there was only that one option as to the origin.

As for what happened to them? I couldn't tell you anymore. They probably went to one of my friends and from there I don't know. Just too many years ago.

In those days the thayeri in captivity weren't that far removed from wild stock. (Nearly) everything was traceable.

I'm sure many of us would have been much more careful with our stock had we known what things would be like today, myself included.
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http://www.hcu-tx.org
http://www.kingsnake.com/mexicana/
http://www.joeforks.com

and I don't have a clue why. Aaron's, Maria's, and mine.

Last night I was doing some research into the origin of these snakes (Dallas Zoo via I don't know who), and I found something very interesting, which TYPIFIES what we are dealing with, both then and now.

Keep in mind that I'm just pointing out inconsistencies. Other than that I don't really know what to think.

First - Refer to Garstka 1982 where he reports 47 offspring from "San Juanito" - no mention of another locality in those captive breedings. Then refer to Tryon & Murphy 1982 where they report the same captive breedings as San Juanito x La Angostura (much more likely). They also provide the following photo of offspring from that pairing:

Then refer to photo I posted of the intermediate phase female released into the private sector as "Chorro Canyon" with no other mention of another locality. Specifically refer to the head marking on that snake, and compare it to the head marking on the intermediate phase above from the La Angostura x San Juanito captive pairing:

It doesn't PROVE anything, but it does provide evidence that "Chorro Canyon" I posted is more than likely "La Angostura x San Juanito x Chorro Canyon", and it makes you wonder about the rest of them - this was very early in the game and pretty much SOP among breeders at the time.

To compound the problem not a single Gartska WC snake made it into the MCZ preserved collection, and very few photos of the Garstka snakes are around today (I do have a couple).

If I remember correctly this is the scenario that provided the impetus for half a dozen alterna breeders to team up and begin a strict locality matched breeding regime. We called ourselves "alternatives" - I think a few of those business cards still exist today.
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http://www.hcu-tx.org
http://www.kingsnake.com/mexicana/
http://www.joeforks.com

That's some interesting data. I heard that in the past locality data was often used as merely a way to identify which subspecies it was and as long as they were the same subspecies, localities were frequently crossed.

I left La Ascencion out of the mix even, as the male I posted bears a strong resemblance to the WC La Ascencion (which in turn looks like the other snake in the Tryon Murphy photo).

So it could have been La Angostura x San Juanito x La Ascencion x Chorro Canyon.

There, now that clears things up a bit LOL
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http://www.hcu-tx.org
http://www.kingsnake.com/mexicana/
http://www.joeforks.com

Joe,

Do you believe that there are distinct phenotypes characterized by marginalized locality?
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Maria

Alaska Reptiles

"Life is like a box of thayeri eggs..."

>>Joe,
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>>Do you believe that there are distinct phenotypes characterized by marginalized locality?
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>>Maria
>>
>> Alaska Reptiles
>>
>>"Life is like a box of thayeri eggs..."

In some instances, i.e. certain localities, without a doubt. The Iturbide snakes for example have a very distinct phenotype. There are other examples.

Best
Joe
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http://www.hcu-tx.org
http://www.kingsnake.com/mexicana/
http://www.joeforks.com

I should have prefaced that comment with the fact that sample sizes are still smaller than anyone would like, but to the best of our knowledge.
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http://www.hcu-tx.org
http://www.kingsnake.com/mexicana/
http://www.joeforks.com

Joe,

Sorry...I meant to inquire about thayeri locality zones...based on what you have researched (and read).
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Maria

Alaska Reptiles

"Life is like a box of thayeri eggs..."

Thanks for making my point this time.

I'm still making some head way in this investigation.
One of the problems is that there are three San Juanito's in Nuevo Leon within a 60 mile radius. One of them is a stone's throw from La Ascencion, one is closer to La Angostura, and one is in between the two. There's only one Chorro Canyon though, and we at least are positive that one is 24 km SE of Saltillo.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks
Captive Bred Locality Matched Desert Kingsnakes

what was your point?
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks
Captive Bred Locality Matched Desert Kingsnakes

That what we "know" about the captive population is heavily peppered with speculation and assumption.

I totally screwed up some of that above and somebody just set me straight on a couple things that only they would know.....

But even if I do get this sorted out, it does not change anything about the snakes that we have today with only a very few exceptions - lots of speculation and confusion.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks
Captive Bred Locality Matched Desert Kingsnakes