Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Well,
I saw this ad in the classified calling there boas,"Baranquilla Locale Red Tails" And I wnated to make it clear to everyone that this is just a less then direct way of calling their boas a Colombian Boa. Seeing that the vast majority of Colombian boas are farmed and collected form the Baranquilla Colombia area, On the North Side of the Andes Mountian range and far from where any know population of Boa Constrictor Constrictor is know to range. It is not until the Southside of the mountians nearing Letecia Colombia towards Peru that true redtailed boas range.
I wanted to point this out to anyone who may have fallen for the less then honest ad posted.
Thanks
Jim Hopkins

Perhaps I'm missing something. I don't see the dishonesty. Did the ad say "true" redtails or just redtails. If they are from Baranquilla and happen to have red tails, then what's all the hubbub...bub?

It seems to me to be just another, of the many attempts, to rename a Boa just to make a bit of extra money on them. The ad read "Locale Specific Red Tails" which sounds a great deal better and a whole lot more misleading then, "nice imported Colombian Boas". Call a spade a spade, call a Boa a Boa and lets not allow these guys to hurt our industry any further with questionable ads and shady practices. I for one no longer worry about what others will think and I will call these guys out and make it clear to the best of my ability.
I ranted about this subject just a few nights ago. This practice is killing the industry and has to stop. If you imported a nice batch of Colombian Boas then say so, no harm in it, but please be honest and call them what they are so the newbie out there is not thinking he is getting anything more then what he is.
If we are willing to let the new guy get taken advantage of, then we may have chased off a potential new herper when he sees the dishonesty that is left to run unchecked. It is not much different then the poor kid who almost got taken on the Pastel Hypos the other day that he was offered for $350.00 for the pair! The only problem was that the fuzzy, unfocused pictures looked like normal dark Colombian Boas. My complaint is not what either party here was asking for his snakes ($125.00 for a nice Colombian Boa is far from unheard of and $350.00 for a mature pair is far from being out of line) my issue is the misrepresentation of the animal. It is not much different then calling a Secretary an “Executive assistant” or a Janitor a “ Sanitation engineer” It may not be illegal but it is certainly putting a fancy title on something to make it more attractive. When you are selling to someone who may not know any better then you have crossed the line to misrepresentation…..
Jim Hopkins

I know. Whay say we put out an APB on the perp, apprehend the criminal in question, and hold him, or her, for questioning. Let's get to the bottom of this Baranquilla conundrum. Just kidding bro! I understand your concern with all the misrepresentation in the classifieds, but I'm not sure I agree that this is an example of that.

Hoppy,

I agree with you 100% and I have been saying this for the get go....Good luck getting your point thtough to some of these knuckle heads!!!!
RL Reptiles

-----
Russ Lockenwitz
RL Reptiles
http://www.visioncages.com

Because I'd like more info before condemning the seller doesn't make me a knucklehead.

Jim,
You are absolutly correct. Ts is something that really bothers me a lot. I have seen it increase & increase over the years. Look at the Ball python classifieds - good night ! There are people selling just normals as "something special" when they're clearly not. Most are not even what anyone who is really in the know would consider abberent. It used to be called "trying to sell sh_t for Shinola", and it still ahould be. It almost seems there is a big absense of honesty & integrity out there. It goes over the border of false advertising & is misleading at best. You see it all the time. The Banquilla example is classic example - do people have no conscience anymore? If you sell something for, let's say, $50 more because you placed a label on it that shouldn't be there, or is really meaningless, doesn't that mean that your integrity can be bought for $50 ???
Paul Edwards

The above post was not intended to remark about how Ben Seigel named his boas as Baranquilla Colombian Boas, which is an acurate name for the boas, his pricing of them also reflects the fact that he was not trying to indicate that these Boas were anything else then nice Colombian Boas of the BCI spps.
Thanks for an Honest representation of them Ben......
Jim Hopkins

I totally agree with you Hoppy and think you are right for shedding some light on this subject. Keep your head up, no matter how much heat you may take for this post.
Take care,
Eric

I don't think I gave him any heat. I'm not above changing my opinion either if I see evidence to support Hoppy's claim. I couldn't find the ad in question. Anyway, were the boas caught in Baranquilla? Has anyone asked the seller? Is the seller well known or credible? I just don't want to jump on anyone's bandwagon without some facts. I'm not saying he's right or wrong.

When I hear 'Locale Specific Red Tails', I'm not thinking of colombian boas.
Ad

-----
-audri
Webpage/Pics

why bother they are ok but that is fine. they maybe missed named but anyone checking this out will know what they are doing. missed named probably.. cool boas..yes. want one? NO!!!
-----
IF YOU HAVE IT SHOW IT. IF YOU OWN IT FLAUNT IT!!

LOL. I remember that ad. I do recall being irritated when I clicked on and saw that they were not "true" redtails. I just moved on. I see Hoppy's point though. I thought he meant that the heading said Baranquilla redtails. I would not have clicked on that ad had I known they weren't Suris or Guyanans or whatever. That's called propaganda. We witness that everyday, everywhere. It's not illegal, just annoying.

.

Sorry, I misinterpreted.

The last i checked Baranquilla was still a locale of Colombia and since his ad didnt say "locality specific red tails" then i really dont see what the point is to this post.I mean i could understand if the guy was to post a classified that says "Locality specific TRUE redtails" and have pictures of colombians instead of suris or peruvians,But he just said Baranquilla Locale which isnt false advertising or being misleading in any way because technically speaking it IS a locale of colombia.

As for the price that doesnt seem to high a price for good looking animals.If i had the extra dough i would get them because of their coloration and patterning not because i would have a specific locality of a species.Now if you really and truly want to get technical about localities try telling that to the crossers and hybridizers of different species/subspecies and see what kind of response you get from that one.Now there lies most of your dishonesty and misrepresentation of animals. Regards Bill McLeod

Just because it is technically correct does not mean that it is not misleading to those who may not know and part of this forum is to spread the wealth of information that we have and try to prevent people from making uniformed purchases.
I person who may not have been into this hobby for so long and has purchased a nice small book to read up on his potential purchase is not going to be able to find the difference between a Local specific Colombian and a Local specific Suriname. He is going to see "Locality Redtailed Boa" and assume , because for the last 20 year that that reffered to everything but BCI Boas, that he is getting something more than an imported farm raside Colombian. Just because are few are using poor arguments to justify bad behavior in no means makes it right. If you boil it down, the person is trying to find a new name for a good snake to make his imported boas stand out from all the other $75.00 Colombian Boas out there, when the only main difference is the fact that they are imported instead of CB like most of the others out there, which for the most part is a - not a plus in the deal.
I think that we have a duty to make sure that if the buyer goes the extra mile to look, he has the information that he may not get from the seller.
Now I would also like to point that I have not said that these animals are poor or inferior in anyway. The fact is, I don't know what there are and they could indeed be super nice Colombians and well worth the money, but the point is, if that is what they are the say so, and drop the smoke and mirror acts (not you specificly Bill but the people who would place such an ad).
Thanks
Jim Hopkins

I don't seem to find your point. Like somebody said in a previous post, Barranquilla is a local inside Colombia. If that guy wants to name his boas Barranquilla Redtails, than he's not misleeding anybody, he's even giving more precise info about locality than most people need/want. A redtail is not a "redtailed" and is not a "true redtail". In every petshop they name any boa a redtail boa, sometimes Colombian redtail. Do you have a problem with the term "Colombian redtail"??

There are two posibilities of naming that boas a Barranquilla redtail.

1.) Smart marketing, based on true facts. If that is a crime or misleeding, than most "morhpist" should be in jail, LOL

2.) Giving a detailed information about its locality, which for some people might be very usefull, because not every Colombian boa looks the same. Colombia is big, so a Barranquilla boa might not look the same as a Turbo boa, a Buenaventura boa or a Tumaco boa, and definitely not like a Leticia boa; here is a Map http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/americas/colombia.jpg

Your totally missing Hoppies point and I can't believe people can'see this & what is happening to our industry, and our country.
Rule #1) you shouldn't hide behind a technicality. If the truth can't stand on it's own merrits, then it shouldn't be allowed to stand. Yes Banquilla is a place, but to say your boas are a locallity, while being technically correct, it hides the fact, and doesn't make known the fact, that almost ALL boas (BCI)are from there !!!
Rule #2) If there was something that you find out later that you wish you would have known before you made your purchase, and the purchaser knew about it, then that's misrepresentation. If you can't see that, then I feel very sorry for anyone you come in contact with. It's just wrong to misslead people.
Here is a better example : the selling of farm raised, imported babies, as captive born or captive hatched. They are not captive born as everyone has come to understand the term. It has been the logical benchmark used in this industry for the last 20 years or so to differentiate animals that are from the wild from animals that were born in someones collection, usually here in the US. Well you might say, they were born, or hatched, in a building so aren't they technically captive born? Well, maybe, but it's one heck of a stretch at best, out & out lying at worst !!! The real truth is, their mothers were caught in the field, brought in and possibly housed with lots of other gravid females, the eggs were layed & incubated with tons of others in conditions any self respecting herper here would be aghast at, then, before they even had a chance to shed & feed, are flown half way across the world! Then they exchange hands possibly several times before they are set up correctly & allowed to acclimate & feed. That's captive born? That's a long way from what we have come to understand as "captive born". And what's next? It was hatched under a rock, but the rock was in my yard, so it is CB? Any new person coming into this hobby would not know the truth, they would assume they were buying something that was born in someones collection, because after all, that what captive born means right?
I don't suppose you understand this though and I'm probably wasting my time, but it is up to us to self police ourselves & do everything we can to keep this business honest. It is our business after all !
Paul Edwards

>>Your totally missing Hoppies point and I can't believe people can'see this & what is happening to our industry, and our country.
>>Rule #1) you shouldn't hide behind a technicality. If the truth can't stand on it's own merrits, then it shouldn't be allowed to stand. Yes Banquilla is a place, but to say your boas are a locallity, while being technically correct, it hides the fact, and doesn't make known the fact, that almost ALL boas (BCI)are from there !!!
>>Rule #2) If there was something that you find out later that you wish you would have known before you made your purchase, and the purchaser knew about it, then that's misrepresentation. If you can't see that, then I feel very sorry for anyone you come in contact with. It's just wrong to misslead people.
>>Here is a better example : the selling of farm raised, imported babies, as captive born or captive hatched. They are not captive born as everyone has come to understand the term. It has been the logical benchmark used in this industry for the last 20 years or so to differentiate animals that are from the wild from animals that were born in someones collection, usually here in the US. Well you might say, they were born, or hatched, in a building so aren't they technically captive born? Well, maybe, but it's one heck of a stretch at best, out & out lying at worst !!! The real truth is, their mothers were caught in the field, brought in and possibly housed with lots of other gravid females, the eggs were layed & incubated with tons of others in conditions any self respecting herper here would be aghast at, then, before they even had a chance to shed & feed, are flown half way across the world! Then they exchange hands possibly several times before they are set up correctly & allowed to acclimate & feed. That's captive born? That's a long way from what we have come to understand as "captive born". And what's next? It was hatched under a rock, but the rock was in my yard, so it is CB? Any new person coming into this hobby would not know the truth, they would assume they were buying something that was born in someones collection, because after all, that what captive born means right?
>>I don't suppose you understand this though and I'm probably wasting my time, but it is up to us to self police ourselves & do everything we can to keep this business honest. It is our business after all !
>>Paul Edwards

"Yes Banquilla is a place, but to say your boas are a locallity, while being technically correct, it hides the fact, and doesn't make known the fact, that almost ALL boas (BCI)are from there !!!"

Which fact?? That they are BCI? Does that make them any
inferior?

"the eggs were layed & incubated"

I thought we are talking about boas!!!!

"I don't suppose you understand this though and I'm probably wasting my time"

You are right on that one, I don't understand your point. Sorry!!
Venezuelan BOAS

New! never before sold locality of Red Tailed Boa Constrictor, The Ft. Myers Boa…. I have bred them here for twenty years. They go back for 5 generations and they have never before seen the Jungles of Colombia, The were bred here in Ft. Myers, FL, their parents were bred here and so on, so technically they are Ft. Myers Locality Boas right? Just because they are the same type of Boa constrictor that everyone has ever sold as a Colombian Red tailed boa, since before many of the forum users were even alive, shouldn’t make any difference, I am technically correct and should be able to what I want regardless of the damage it may cause?
I see why you think that this person has a right to do what he wants and what you may believe to be “smart marketing”. I don’t see this as being much different then a used car dealer putting in a phony price tag on his car in an ad just to get you to the lot, while in the fine microprint at the bottom is the disclaimer that you need to have $10,000 down!
It is not illegal, but it is improper and that is where I feel this dealer is doing wrong. He is not breaking any laws, just the general code of ethics that this hobby once had and is now being removed by those just looking to make a buck.
I’m sorry that you fail to see my point and that you see nothing wrong with such a practice. I guess that is where this dealer will find his market. I, for one, will add this dealer to my ever increasing list of people who I will not deal with. I don’t fault you for not seeing my point, after all this is what the forum is about, expressing one’s thoughts and opinions, we just have different views on the subject, no big problem with that.
I do however want to clear up a few points that have been made on either side….
If the boas were truly captive bred at someone’s facility in Colombia, then the locality of the line is no more valid then any line bred here in the US. If they are not plucked from the jungle or farmed from wild caught females from the area, then how can anyone be anymore sure that they are indeed from parents of that locality.
Secondly, I don’t have first hand knowledge of weather or not the facility that Ben works with down there Breeds or farms so I can not say, however, regardless of their method, they would still be imports, imported from Colombia (either way) and should still be treated as such.
Thirdly, Bill makes references to people calling them CB when they are not, or hets when they are not and other things along the same line. This is not what I am saying that this dealer is doing, the above examples are of criminal fraud, what I stated the dealer is doing is simply misleading his buyers, not quite the same, but I am not endorsing either method, either!
And Fourthly, although I strongly disagree with the McNasty fella from above, and I hope he was just speaking off the cuff and will rethink his way of dealing with people, I do no endorse Paul’s thoughts of taking him out and shooting him LOL.
Thanks to all for a lively discussion.
Jim Hopkins

Although i DO agree with you on the point about some ads being misleading (wc,cb,ch,or fresh import) i dont see the point of why this ad is misleading in anyway.So he's got a good price on them,so does every other snake in this industry when it shouldnt be,albinoes,hypoes,granites,caramels,pieds,just to name a few.I look at it this way if they are healthy,feeding,and mite free/parasite free,then to me its a good deal.Now if someone was to put an ad in the classys stating that they have freshhly imported boa babies for $60 a piece and they havent fed or shed then that should be illegal but its not.So then they wind up selling all of them to unsuspecting people who have no clue as how to deal with a fresh import and they either sell them to someone that does or they die,simple as that.Now thats whats hurting this industry,not ads like the one mentioned.

As for the locale,Baranquilla is still a locale of colombia as is Bogata,which is also where some of our imports come from.They are called Colombian redtails and have been for as long as i can remember.Why change things now just because their not "True Redtails" like the suris,peruvians,or guyanans.I've saw some colombians with majorly redtails and have saw alot of the other 3 mentioned that have more of a Colombian redtail color than the dark red like they should have (since thats what they are named and have been for the last umpteen years).

If people would also do their necessary studying before jumping the gun on buying these animals alot of these headaches with locality types wouldnt be a problem,but since people dont do it then we will always have these problems even if we do our herping jobs and try to point them in the right direction.Helping a few people to understand the differences between BCI/BCC isnt going to help the 500 that wind up with freshly hatched imports or wc specimens.Get rid of importation and you get rid of the problem. Regards Bill McLeod

whoops caps.
anyway I asked the guy if they are captive bred who produced them and if they are farmed how long have they been in the country.

He says they are captive bred at Ben's facility in baranquilla.

corect me if I am being ignorant. But isn't that a farming venture down there?

np

Well I asked about them because I was somewhat interested.
This is what he says.
my e-mail to him.
QUOTE
http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=38&de=93895
about your add.
If they are captive bred who produced your colombians?
If they are farmed....how long have they been in the country?
what size prey are they eating right now
UNquote

His reply to me
QUOTE
They are captive bred in Baranquilla, Columbia at one
of Ben Siegel's facilities. They've been in the country
since they were 4 weeks old. Eating 1-2 f/t pinkie rats
per week.

Very friendly animals!
UNQUOTE

I could have sworn they were farmed. But hey....who am I to nit pick?