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Panamanian B.c.imperator

ChrisGilbert Feb 03, 2008 04:21 PM

While there is a lot going on right now with the USF&W proposal, I did want to take the opportunity to post some information that I think many will find useful.

I figured I would do a little write up about the Panamanian BCI coming in recently. Hopefully this answers questions for those who had them, and works as a reference for everyone else.

To begin, after a 10 year ban on export, Panama permitted a shipment to the United States in early 2005.

There seems to be a lot of confusion as to the contents of this shipment. And most of it seems to be rumors that get passed on through word of mouth and taken as fact. In an effort to address this I have decided to post a scanned image of the CITES permit that accompanied this first shipment. It is not full size because I did not want someone to be able to print it out and use it to sell boas that were not from this shipment, nor the progeny of said boas.

While not fully clear you can make out that the quantity of boas in the shipment was 60. The next detail you will notice is the absence of a subspecies listed. There is a line for the genus, Boa and another for the species, Boa constrictor. However nowhere does it mention Imperator or Sabogae.

Just as comparison this is the CITES for the '04 Costa Rican shipment, again no subspecies label:

So now the question is what made up those 60 boas. There were 3 Sabogae, and 57 Imperator. The information about these contents I got from Kevin Barnett and Matt Lerer (separate inquiries to check validity). In Daytona 2005 I was fortunate enough to see one of the Sabogae on John Berry's table. Identical in appearance to those that Rich Ihle had with him. When John moved back to the UK I believe he sold those boas to Vin Russo. (Please check this if you are interested, I am not 100% sure.)

So now to the 57 Imperator. Kevin notified me of the shipment shortly after he received many of the boas, my dad decided to buy 2.2 of them. We still have these 4 boas, and both females are gravid. Which will hopefully result in healthy litters of F1 boas.

Now there is a very important piece of information that people seem to have missed and/or get confused about. This is the lack of locality data with these boas.

What exactly does that mean?

That means, the exact place of origin, such as the City of collection, was never noted. They may very well come from many Panamanian locales.

Some people seem to think that they are not Panamanian, because the information of no locality information, has been misunderstood. They are without a doubt Panamanian boas, however the collection point is not known. It is the collection point, the city and region that makes the locale definition. Country of origin, and political boundary are just a reference point. So these boas are as much locality boas as a Suriname boa. A boa from Suriname, but with no locale information. Where as a Pokigron Suriname is a locality Suriname boa. Hopefully this example will clear up any added confusion to my explanation.

Back to the 57 boas. This group consisted of Hypos, Wild Type (normal), and reverse striped boas of varying degrees from both color phases.

Matt Lerer of GHI Reptiles bought the shipment directly from the importer. Matt reported to me that of those 57 Boas, 23 were Hypos. The number of 26 quoted in other sources seems to have included the Sabogae as Hypos, although the true Hypomelanistic Panamanians were BCI. So, 34 Wild Type, 23 Hypo BCI, and 3 Sabogae.

Now of those Hypos and wild type BCI there were some with full reverse stripes. I have seen 2 wild type stripes, and Matt has 7 Hypos with full reverse stripes.

Others, such as this male which we have, have lesser stripes.

The same male braving this shot:

Some of you may now be asking about those Sabogae. How did they end up there? Well, the Pearl Islands, the island of Toboga, and other islands in the Bay of Panama (exit of Panama canal) are all under Panamanian governmental control, and home to wild populations of Boa constrictor sabogae. So those 3 boas, which have been authenticated as Sabogae, could have come from one of those islands. There may be mainland Sabogae populations, but I do not know.

So that pretty much sums up the first Panamanian shipment. However, there were others.

In Vin Russo's book The Complete Boa Constrictor, he mentions only one shipment. However that was written before the other shipments. Keep in mind the extensive time from writing to publishing to release.

Again, quoting Matt Lerer, the second shipment in 2005 contained 12 boas. 6 of which were Hypos.

There was not another shipment to the United States until 2007. There were 2 shipments in 2007. The first of which contained 20 boas, and no Hypos. These boas were publicly offered for sale on Kingsnake classifieds.

Now the 4th and final shipment I have heard mixed reports on. Jared Horenstien saw some of the boas, and said they all looked similar. I saw pictures of two of them, and they appear visually speaking to be Sabogae. Matt did not mention how many boas were in the shipment, only that it was small and contained one hypo. Matt did mention that Sabogae were coming in more often now. So the shipment that Jared and Matt were each referring two may or may not be the same. The important point is that only 4 shipments of Panamanian BCI have come in. With the numbers just above 89, and less than 100. I have also received two private accounts from individuals that obtained boas from the first shipment, which later died, between the two people at least 7 of the boas are dead. There may be more as I do not know who all has them to check current quotas.

I would love to talk more about Panamanian Sabogae, but that is another topic, which I still do not have all the information for. And the focus here is on the Imperator.

So in concluding, Panamanian BCI are rare boas in culture. With numbers less than 100 in the country. As well, because of the methods of import, all valid examples should be accompanied by CITES permits. I am not aware of any yet being produced in the US. Matt has a few gravid Hypo Reverse Stripes, and my dad has two gravid Wild Types. These should be the first US CBB litters, as 2008 marks F1 Panamanian imperator.

One final side note. The CA Motleys introduced to those of us in the US by Alex Barriero of Boa Republic have been reported by John Berry to have originated in the UK from Panamanian stock. John is originally from and currently resides in the UK. I ran this information by a US breeder who shall remain nameless, and the truth to this claim was questioned. The cited reason was that because Panama had a complete ban on export for 10 years, not just to the US, that this was not likely.

The CA Motleys have been bred to Nicaraguan and other boas of Central American lineage, as well as a breeding to a Colombian EBV Red Group. I spoke with Alex this summer and he does have 1.1 original CA Motleys, whatever their original origin may be. However they are siblings. Perhaps this has become like the original Salmon matriarch that Rich Ihle started with, a boa of unknown origin reported to be Panamanian.
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http://www.GilbertBoas.com/
http://www.BoaList.com/

Replies (23)

mack1time Feb 03, 2008 04:32 PM

just sent a pm!
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www.BetterBoa.com

4.3 BCIs (Zeus, Athena, Xena, Jocasta, Menelaus, Aphodite, Hades)
4.4 Corn snakes

Warren_Booth Feb 03, 2008 07:24 PM

Hi Chris,
I can send you a link to the original breeder of the CA motley's in the UK if you want. This way you can check the details.

Warren
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Dr Warren Booth
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology
3309 Gardner Hall
Raleigh, NC 27695-7613

ChrisGilbert Feb 04, 2008 10:18 AM

That would be terrific.
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http://www.GilbertBoas.com/
http://www.BoaList.com/

PBM Feb 04, 2008 08:04 PM

This is an old post I bookmarked when it was originally posted. As far as the EBV X "Panama" CA Motleys, our records show them as 02's. One reason I was always a little torqued off with people calling them mutts...Panama and Colombia border while people breed Nics to any boa within all of Central America(sometimes even North America) and call them pure....and MOST of these breedings are not even from bordering countries. OH well, here's a copy/paste of Gaz's info if the link w/picture doesn't work

"got this as a wc neonate one of 30 from Panama,took 6 years to get to 4.5 foot long bred it to normal male proved to be co-dominant with half the litter fully striped,all went to san Diego as an export order,should have kept the lot methinks?! Will try and get some pics of a friends square saddled La Bahia Boas for you all ,they are killer!!"

That's all from me as this subject........................
Gaz Motley Thread

ChrisGilbert Feb 04, 2008 08:58 PM

I've used your example in locale debates before. A hundred years ago Panama was still a part of Colombia.

And I also agree on the CA morphs X Sonoran (or other Mexican) boas. Mexico isn't in Central America.

Oh well. People also spell out "HogG Island" and "ColUmbia". You can only expect so much I guess.

I also like the "pure CA" label. Hmm, maybe I'll create a mix of Longicauda, Occidentalis, Imperator, Constrictor, Amarali, and Ortonii. After all, they are can all be found in South America, so they'd be pure "South American Boas".
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http://www.GilbertBoas.com/
http://www.BoaList.com/

PBM Feb 04, 2008 09:13 PM

LOL, Chris, I think you nailed it!!!!!!

johnberry Feb 04, 2008 06:19 AM

Hi Chris,

Good detective work.

After you have checked out and verified by claim that the original CA Motley was from Panama, I'll accept an apology from the "Unnamed US boa breeder" who questioned my claim

Secondly, here is a shot of a now gravid Panamanian Hypo from the original 2005 shipment (photo from Dec 07). This was a Hypo to Hypo breeding. This is from a friend I sold this pair to. I'll have these babies available later this year.(sorry for the dark photo, trying not to disturb the snakes too much).

Lastly, yes I sold Vin Russo my 1.2 sub adult Sabogae bci ... the male is pictured in his boa book.

cheers, John


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www.johnberryreptiles.com
www.designermorphs.com - the most complete guide to boa & python mutations, morphs and hybrids

Snakesatsunset Feb 04, 2008 07:16 AM

I saw the CA Motleys that Boa Republic got and they came out of boxes from nicaragua many years ago. Now I do not know if they were exported then re-imported, but I can almost swear that the animal he put pics of as an adult female that had babies was identical to one of the babies I saw. I personally had the red nicaraguan motley called now "INCA" and that one was supposed to be sent overseas but wasn't? I have seen several other motleys from nicaragua that look identical as the originals and what people are producing.

Snakesatsunset Feb 04, 2008 07:17 AM

There have been way over 4-5 shipments of panamanians. I know of one importer who imports about a dozen every few months. Most look like sabogae though.

ChrisGilbert Feb 04, 2008 10:31 AM

The 4th shipment that I discussed with conflicting information from Jared and Matt, leading me to the conclusion that those were 2 separate shipments, has been validated.

There have been 4 shipments of Panamanian Imperator.

There have been more frequent shipments of Panamanian Sabogae. As you said, they looked like Sabogae. Matt Lerer also confirmed to me that quote: "The Sabogaes come in all of the time now."
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http://www.GilbertBoas.com/
http://www.BoaList.com/

jscrick Feb 04, 2008 11:18 AM

That being said, there is no documentation the Sabogae boas coming into the country are anything other than Panamanian boas.
No locality date, no import data, no actual specific or sub-specific description of the species, is that correct? Just a visual, subjective interpretation by those receiving these boas that they are Sabogae, is that correct? Is there anything saying these boas did not in fact come from across borders and come from a neighboring country?
My point is -- what's your point with all this?
It may or may not be a valid taxon?
It may or may not be a locality specific color morph?
The normals may throw Sabogae babies. It will then be considered a Super?
Am I missing something?
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

ChrisGilbert Feb 04, 2008 11:41 AM

Boa constrictor sabogae is without a doubt a valid taxon. Scale count and morphological differences substantiate this. Among the morphological traits, are a variance in head shape, as well as body structure when compared with Imperator, and a smaller adult size.
Notice this has nothing to do with the color or pattern of said boas.

The Sabogae from Panama have been verified as Sabogae, and not Imperator, by checking for the traits listed in the taxonomic description of the subspecies.

The Boas that are being exported from Panama must be from Panama to be given CITES approval.

Subspecies is not recorded on CITES (at least not always).

All wild populations of B.c.sabogae are in areas controlled by the Panamanian government. This includes, but is not limited to, the Pearl Islands.
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http://www.GilbertBoas.com/
http://www.BoaList.com/

jscrick Feb 04, 2008 12:19 PM

Indians come to market every week. They bring snakes to sell to the snake buyer. He travels from town to town over a period of time. Once he's gathered enough snakes from so many anonymous sources, he ships them.
Who says people don't bring snakes across borders to sell?
I find that "head shape" thing hard to quantify. How do you measure that? Sounds rather subjective to me.
Just call me a skeptic.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

strictly4fun Feb 04, 2008 08:44 PM

johnberry Feb 04, 2008 03:06 PM

Snakes at Sunset ...I guess Amir ..Perhaps you should ask Alex where he got his original CA Motley from ... it was imported from Gaz in Wales who got it in from Panama ..there are people in other parts of the world who import snakes you know. Secondly it looks nothing like the INCA/ Nicaraguan Motley Boa ... but then I guess if you have trouble telling the difference between a regular Panamanian Hypo and a island Hypo (B.c.sabogae), I can understand your confusion ....

cheers, John
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www.johnberryreptiles.com
www.designermorphs.com - the most complete guide to boa & python mutations, morphs and hybrids

BoaRepublic Feb 04, 2008 04:06 PM

I am confirming John's statement.
I got my CA Motleys from Gaz.
These Motleys were never sent back and fourth to anyone else.
Gaz got the original mother as a baby and owned it until it was sold to me.

jscrick Feb 04, 2008 04:09 PM

I don't have any problem differentiating them, if you're speaking to me.
I just have a problem with the legitimacy of all these claims of fact.
When money and prestige are at stake, sometimes the facts get a bit twisted. As in, when snakes sell snakes.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

jscrick Feb 04, 2008 04:11 PM

Sorry, I was referring to the Panamanian/Sabogae debate.
Not the CA Motley debate. I haven't a clue on that one.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

ChrisGilbert Feb 04, 2008 06:48 PM

There is surprisingly little money involved here. Those 2.2 Panamanians that we have from the first shipment were only around $250 each. Not exactly high end boas.

What comes into play is misinformation by those who thought they knew the facts. Or those who were unable to obtain the boas for whatever reason.

I am glad that John and Alex contributed to the thread. I checked with Matt and Jared who had seen these shipments first hand. I got information from others who own boas from these shipments. As well as checking information with Kevin Barnett (back then) and Vin Russo. I have also talked with Mike Weitzman in the past as he has some pure original Hardy line Hypos.

All too often this information gets disregarded, or kept behind the scenes. It isn't secret information by any means. And all it does is hurt by not making it available for all.
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http://www.GilbertBoas.com/
http://www.BoaList.com/

ChrisGilbert Feb 04, 2008 10:25 AM

Thanks for the confirmation on those 3 Sabogae from the first shipment.

On another forum someone mentioned that a friend of theirs had brought some boas back with them after traveling to Panama. Not sure on the complete details, and it was a while ago as well.

Point being, that there could have been a few squeezed in under the radar. The consequences in Europe for smuggling are far less severe. And when animals are confiscated, they are placed with others.

There are some species in Europe and the US that would not be in captivity had they not been smuggled, confiscated, and placed.
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http://www.GilbertBoas.com/
http://www.BoaList.com/

ChrisGilbert Feb 04, 2008 10:27 AM

Hit post too fast.

Dr. Hardy's line of Hypos were from Panama as well. So it is quite possible that the CA Motley popped up from a line in the UK from many years ago.
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http://www.GilbertBoas.com/
http://www.BoaList.com/

BoaRepublic Feb 04, 2008 04:21 PM

when I first started talking to Gaz...back in 2001 when I imported the motley, I'm quite sure he said he had owned the snake for 6-7 years....So that means, he had the original mother since 1994 or 1995 (baby then ofcourse).

As far as what I have...
I have 1.2, not 1.1, from the original stock.

Every other CA Motley I have is a result of breeding either siblings together (done 2 times, once in 2004, and once in 2006) or cross breeding new CA blood.
All CA Motleys bred to EBV red group were sold that same year. I believe that was in 2003.

Thanks John for emailing me about this post...I don't make it on here enough. Hope some of this info I've stated helps!

Email me directly for any other info!

Thanks
Alex

ChrisGilbert Feb 04, 2008 06:41 PM

Thanks Alex for coming on here and posting this information. I think that will alleviate any questions that people had.

The atypical patterns seen in most Panamanian BCI are obviously present in those CA Motleys with more Panamanian heritage. Those from the EBV breeding, as well as those bred to further Nicaraguan morphs tend to develop more traditional connected patterns seen in both Colombians and Nicaraguans.
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http://www.GilbertBoas.com/
http://www.BoaList.com/

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