Reptile & Amphibian Forums

That are being talked about in regard to the ban.
Im thinking Retic, burmese,Afrock thats all Ican think of.Which other 2 constrictors would be included.BCC and BCI?
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Anybody remotely interesting is mad in some way or another.

There is another Rock Python I believe, the South African Rock, and there is the Green Anaconda.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

new law regulates: Python molurus, P. sebae, Python reticulatus, Morelia amythystina, Eunectes murinus, Varanus niloticus, Varanus salvator, and Tupinambis marianae. No Boa constrictors or others were "lumped" in the law thanks to diligent efforts by some of us floridians attending EVERY meeting and being persistent. I believe that this Federal Law as proposed has little chance of passing but I believe the powers that be are aware of that. Then they will offer a compromise that if offered the first time would have created a stir such as this law has.Most of us will think the new law is so much better than the proposed law we will willingly go along with it. DON'T BE FOOLED!!!!! This is a classic political ploy that generally works. We must oppose any and all components of this proposal period. HAVE NO DOUBT THERE IS A HIDDEN AGENDA IN THE MAKING. The same thing just happened in Fl. but because the Burmese are here and relatively common we did better than we hoped for by keeping Boas off the list. We have Dennis Sargent, E. Besset, Jim Peters, and many others[ sorry if I ommitted anyone ] to thank for their diligence and oratoricle skills. Since these herps pose NO threat to most of the U.S. we have more ammo and less opposition. We need to do anything and everything within our power to stop this ridiculous proposal in its tracks without a compromise!!! TC

I was referring to the big 5 in Texas. I think that's right, what I said. Sorry.

Yes, absolutely, there is a hidden agenda. Don't be naive and think there isn't.

When our Government is bought and paid for by special interests, you better believe there's a secret agenda.

All those people that craft, implement, oversee, and enforce those laws -- do so at the behest of those that installed them in their positions. Their positions in the Government bureaucracy -- managing people. That's what they do. Just like cattle to the slaughtering pen.

George Bush and those he's beholding to have taken their socioeconomic model from Mexico, instead of visa-versa.

You might as well call the contiguous United States New Mexico now. I'm sure all the illegal aliens working for the Man could give a whit if commerce in large Boids is prohibited. Does that make sense? Do you get the connection? Do you see where we're going?

I'm not anti-Hispanic. I'd do the same thing if I were in their place. It's the Government. Government policy.

Think about it.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

There is no way that anyone with any knowledge of the realities of the trade would think that this regulation would fly. We must be prepared to vigorously oppose the REAL regulation when they finally propose it as a phony "compromise".
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Brad Chambers

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

It's nothing more than a ploy on their part to get their hands around the $$$~Dollars~$$$ involved, to control and manage, while they take their cut.

Just like my cattle through the shoot analogy. Right now we're in the round-up stage. That's why I said we've got to be very thoughtful with our response and speak with one voice.

Once everybody pops up on the radar screen and says, "Hey, I make $XXX off of this industry. You can't curtail my income."
They say, "Here's the new RULES. Sign up, document, acknowledge, affirm, swear, and PAY --or we'll arrest and fine you and run you out of business."

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Seriously, The agenda is what we all must understand.

They know exactly what their intent is and they even know what they expect to come out of this with.

It is a shame, that we are all scattered across the country, and have no better meens of communication other than forums...and then we are limited as to what is allowed to be printed. Maybe someone can get one of those Radio shows going and get some call ins so we can all be heard more effectively.

How about it Kingsnake? Set something up for a broadcast.

I am concerned as to the real motive of the need for us all to file in and fill out in writing all info about us and what we do.

I think we should be proactive and gather our own ranks....

If they are looking to compile a list this would be very effective.

Andy Federico
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Thanks for the info, Tom. But what is the hidden agenda, and who is behind it? I think this proposal to gather information is as stupid as everyone else does, but who is pushing it and how are they benefiting? Does the USFWS just want the income from permits? Job security?

Thanks,
Ed

>>new law regulates: Python molurus, P. sebae, Python reticulatus, Morelia amythystina, Eunectes murinus, Varanus niloticus, Varanus salvator, and Tupinambis marianae. No Boa constrictors or others were "lumped" in the law thanks to diligent efforts by some of us floridians attending EVERY meeting and being persistent. I believe that this Federal Law as proposed has little chance of passing but I believe the powers that be are aware of that. Then they will offer a compromise that if offered the first time would have created a stir such as this law has.Most of us will think the new law is so much better than the proposed law we will willingly go along with it. DON'T BE FOOLED!!!!! This is a classic political ploy that generally works. We must oppose any and all components of this proposal period. HAVE NO DOUBT THERE IS A HIDDEN AGENDA IN THE MAKING. The same thing just happened in Fl. but because the Burmese are here and relatively common we did better than we hoped for by keeping Boas off the list. We have Dennis Sargent, E. Besset, Jim Peters, and many others[ sorry if I ommitted anyone ] to thank for their diligence and oratoricle skills. Since these herps pose NO threat to most of the U.S. we have more ammo and less opposition. We need to do anything and everything within our power to stop this ridiculous proposal in its tracks without a compromise!!! TC

There's nothing hidden behind any of this it's been put out there for everyone to see in big bold letters for years. Exotic animal keepers and business did next to nothing to protect the future while,

Groups such as husa and peta have been on a relentless anti ownership campaign . The objective has never been hidden. TV, radio , celebrities, bumper stickers , collection jars you name it they do it. It's all out there hitting you in the face every day, with one common goal and that is to put end to private ownership. From humble beginnings the organizers of these groups aggressively did what was necessary to create a financially and politically formable foe. On the other hand exotic owners remain disjointed and indifferent.

Legislation such as this new proposal are the direct result of actions. Law makers don't just wake and decide to dump on the reptile guys. Their approached and given reason valid or not to take action by pro active members of these anti ownership groups . The leaders of these organizations and their members are constantly fighting to achieve their objectives. In other words they work to achieve goals.

Pointing fingers , feeling sorry for ourselves and blaming others for screwing us is not the answer. The industry / private collectors are in this position because we did not help ourselves even when the enemy was telling us to our faces what they were going to do. It's a miracle that we have been able to circle the wagons to save what we have so far. The realty is our position is like a man holding a giant rock on a steep hill. If we don't work to push the rock over the hill our arms will tire and it will roll over us.

As I said on another forum we need to get everyone involved. Fight fire with fire while we can. It's time all factions of pet owners get together and try to do more then just hold our ground until the next assault comes ( and it's right around the corner.) We need to start going on the offensive and asking for legislation that will protect our ownership rights. Its time to start making a case for ourselves .

Ernie Eison
Westwoodreptiles.com

What has been said about the end result being a compromised version of the original complete ban proposal has been said by others and myself . I do agree with this possibility and understand how in some political cases this is the goal but I do not believe in this instance that it is .We are dealing with a very radical group. I would like to clarified my view on the matter .

While I do acknowledge the possibility of the final draft being less restrictive to some degree. In no way do I feel this is a case where someone is asking for everything but will go in knowingly ready to settle for less. The people behind this legislative ban proposal do not want compromise. The real law they are looking for is an all out ban. ON EVERYTHING ! If a lesser version of this proposal is submitted they will fight it and continue to ask for more. Keep in mind they are extremist.

When this all really started to take off here in Florida what was originally submitted was a proposal for an all out ban. Similar to what we are looking at now but on a state level. As soon as it became apparent that this wasn't going to happen here. The factions behind this attack on exotic keepers started to get things moving to have it handled at the federal level. Once again asking for an all out ban. These people are not hoping or interested in settling for less then a complete end to exotic ownership. Their mission statement is clear. Put a stop to EVERTHING. They may temporally and begrudgingly accept trimmed legislation but this is not what their looking for and it will in no way end there. In the case of bills featuring lesser restrictions being passed you can believe they will waste no time on resuming their attack against us . They want it all stopped and stopped now ! Make no mistake what these people are going after is exactly a what their asking for.

I fully agree that people often jump at and happily accept legislation that looks much more friendly then the original doomsday plan. This is a mistake. Again Florida sets a good example. Many people felt very happy with what they thought was the end result of the most recent ownership attack. A microchip / permit system sounded good ? But before the ink has even dried we are now confronted by this federal proposal and still face numerous ownership threats at the state level . We achieved nothing with any long term effect. Laying on the ropes and covering up may help you to survive the round but ultimately you will lose the fight.

Some things to consider when a sweeter sounding watered down version of doomsday legislation is presented are, What kinds of provisions are contained in the document ? Often times these include being an open ended policy meaning that additional species and restrictions can be added. Sometimes before you know it's happing . This is a very dangerous thing to say the least. It's a big part of the what the anti ownership people fight for when they don't get it all. Plan B . "the back door ". It's very important that if we agree to something that it provides us with some long term protection. We need things in place that assure us that our future is secure. In other words . We defended our case now here's what we would like. These types of documents can be written in a very complicated language that disguises key elements . This is why sound legal representation is needed.

When legislation is passed it serves to set a legal precedence that can be used for or against you. We need to have precedence set in place that will work for us. The long term rights to responsible ownership is the goal.

We all need to participate to protect that interest. Everyone must keep this thought in mind .

The real law they are looking for is an all out ban. ON EVERYTHING !

We can't maintain a why should I care attitude just because an issue might involve a species we have no personal interest in. We all have a common interest . A love of animals . We all need to look out for each other.

Lastly I'm probably repeating myself but again .This is not a government conspiracy.The man is not looking to put us down for no reason. If that was the case it would have been over long ago.

It must be remembered .The people we call humaniacs, fanatics, nut cases etc. are people law makers and politicians at all levels call tax payers, voters, campaign contributors and sometimes colleagues. Groups that are out to take everything away from us such as Peta , United States Humane Society and their supporters are citizens. What is happening is these citizens are actively approaching government officials and stating their case . Their demanding that something be done. What we're seeing is a government reaction to a request submitted by a segment of society .The approach these groups use is the very same one we need to employ. It's important to let these officials know that we are also tax payers, voters , campaign contributors and sometimes colleagues. We have to tell our side of the story and let them know about our numbers and contributions . We need to prove our point and let these officials know that we also would like something done.

Ernie Eison
Westwoodreptiles.com

I have stayed relatively quiet as this has unfolded. Trying to get a feel and a grasp of what is really going on.

IMO many are correct that there is a hidden (or not so hidden) agenda but I also think many are missing a point. The REAL, TRUE AGENDA IS...

TO ELIMINATE THE KEEPING OF OUR ANIMALS AS PETS!!

We are but one front on their all out attacks. Do not fool yourselves, this proposed ban while many think is ludicrous is only a BEGINNING in their minds. Were this ban to pass, they would immediately turn their attention to adding more to it. Adding species, adding registration and permit processes. (as difficult of a permit process as they could to prevent some from even trying) BANNING ANY AND ALL BREEDING? Mandatory sterilization of captive animals?

Even if /when this interstate transportation ban does not pass I agree they already have a much less restrictive one to offer as a compromise. THAT COMPROMISE would be a "foot in the door" once passed, I am CERTAIN they would begin efforts to give this weaker compromise some real teeth. Again, adding species, broadening it's scope until they had the ban they originally started with and MORE!
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

First USFWS don't need money as they are government employees. They work for the folks that print the money. Job security is not an issue either. These laws in the past, now, and in the future are pushed by animal rights groups such as PETA. They have organized for a long time a way to stop any and all trade concerning wildlife period. There is some evidence to show that members or people with sentiments with these groups have obtained positions with various wildlife law enforcement agencies not limited to USFWS. When I said "hidden agenda" I didn't mean that the folks responsible were hidden. Again they know there is little or NO chance for this law to be passed but they believe by introducing a ridiculous law it will enrage the public at large to defeat it. Then the REAL law [ a compromise ] will be introduced. The thought is that everyone will be so relieved that the original ridiculous version didn't pass the REAL INTENDED version will pass. THIS HAPPENS IN POLITICS ALL THE TIME. WE MUST NOT COMPROMISE PERIOD!!!! We had to in Florida because there are established breeding populations of P. molurus, V. niloticus, Tupinambis marianae, and B. constrictor present here NOW. Even still Boas did not make the list of newly regulated herps. The entire Fl bill was promulgated by one politician with ties to these groups and he didn't like snakes. Once the bill was introduced all the animal right fruits and nuts attacked. One of the most outspoken "proffessional" against us was a dog catcher from a Humane Society with just about zero knowlege of the subject. This made no difference as he had the right to speak as everyone else. My friends I implore you to speak out in any and all ways possible. Send letters to the Federal Register, USFWS, and your senators and congressmen. REMEMBER IF WE INUNDATE THEM WITH OUR SENTIMENTS WE WILL BE HEARD. REST ASSURED OUR ENEMIES WILL BE DOING THE SAME. A FAMOUS COACH ONCE SAID "THE BEST DEFENCE IS A GOOD OFFENCE" SO LETS GO ON THE OFFENSIVE. Thanks...sorry to get on the soapbox but I've seen this before and its not pretty....TC

Don't worry the soapbox, this is the kind of information that will help others understand what's going on and get on board with opposition to this stupid legislation. All the non-specific, "the evil government is taking all our liberties away!!!!" posts I'm seeing don't help any, imo. In fact, it's almost turned me towards apathy. I can't/won't fight an enemy when I don't even know who the enemy is. Many hobbyists are probably not aware of all this PETA nonsense, I know I wasnt. And I don't even know what "husa" is. This is not directed at you, Tom, but talking down to those who aren't aware doesn't help the cause either. Helping them *become* aware by providing relevant, specific information, like you just did, helps!

Thanks,
Ed

>>First USFWS don't need money as they are government employees. They work for the folks that print the money. Job security is not an issue either. These laws in the past, now, and in the future are pushed by animal rights groups such as PETA. They have organized for a long time a way to stop any and all trade concerning wildlife period. There is some evidence to show that members or people with sentiments with these groups have obtained positions with various wildlife law enforcement agencies not limited to USFWS. When I said "hidden agenda" I didn't mean that the folks responsible were hidden. Again they know there is little or NO chance for this law to be passed but they believe by introducing a ridiculous law it will enrage the public at large to defeat it. Then the REAL law [ a compromise ] will be introduced. The thought is that everyone will be so relieved that the original ridiculous version didn't pass the REAL INTENDED version will pass. THIS HAPPENS IN POLITICS ALL THE TIME. WE MUST NOT COMPROMISE PERIOD!!!! We had to in Florida because there are established breeding populations of P. molurus, V. niloticus, Tupinambis marianae, and B. constrictor present here NOW. Even still Boas did not make the list of newly regulated herps. The entire Fl bill was promulgated by one politician with ties to these groups and he didn't like snakes. Once the bill was introduced all the animal right fruits and nuts attacked. One of the most outspoken "proffessional" against us was a dog catcher from a Humane Society with just about zero knowlege of the subject. This made no difference as he had the right to speak as everyone else. My friends I implore you to speak out in any and all ways possible. Send letters to the Federal Register, USFWS, and your senators and congressmen. REMEMBER IF WE INUNDATE THEM WITH OUR SENTIMENTS WE WILL BE HEARD. REST ASSURED OUR ENEMIES WILL BE DOING THE SAME. A FAMOUS COACH ONCE SAID "THE BEST DEFENCE IS A GOOD OFFENCE" SO LETS GO ON THE OFFENSIVE. Thanks...sorry to get on the soapbox but I've seen this before and its not pretty....TC

HUSA is the nickname for the Humane Society if i'm not mistaken.

http://www.api4animals.org/
Read their recommendations here: http://www.api4animals.org/a3b3_recommend.php
The first of which is:
States must act now to pass laws that ensure that the private ownership of exotic animals is prohibited.

If you want to know who is behind all these new proposed laws everywhere, this is who. They are well organized, they have lots of money and lawyers and lobbyists. There were defeated in NC by NC ARK (North Carolina Association of Reptile Keepers, http://www.ncark.org/).

At this point we are unorganized, but not for long. NC ARK and PIJAC, and hopefully many other organizations are banning together to fight this. I suggest you join NCARK.
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Caden Chapman
slithering.serpents@gmail.com
http://slitheringserpents.com

I agree with your proaction stance and proposal to flood them with responses. But the government agencies no0t being after money is just false. If they had no departmental income or job security concerns then you wouldn't have quota's(even if they don't normaly admit to them), speed traps, or metered curbside parking. All agencies have both financial and job security concerns to one degree or another. Of course that does not necesarily meen that those concerns are behind this legistlation. They might or might not be a factor. Bottom line though is we need to oppose this and as was stated previously they are most likely aiming high with this first proposal to acheive their actual goal in the compromise.

Sean.
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1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

In response to the job security if in fact the law passed it would tremendously diminish their work load. I don't believe in this case quota's, job security, or other factors are the reasons behing this ill conceived bill. thanks...TC

I've just skimmed the latest, but I want to add something. Hope it's relevant, but not redundant.

Regarding those people that are against private ownership, the way I see it, it is a mentality or a mindset of those that hold themselves intellectually superior to most. I call them the academic intelligentsia. They believe only they are intelligent and sophisticated enough to possess, interact, observe and study wildlife. The rest of us are a bunch of cretins that can do nothing but bring harm to animals. They hold us in contempt.
Of course, we know that isn't the reality of the situation at all.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Hey John,

What you are saying is probably accurate, but with all
due respect, imo it doesn't really help the cause. The
elitist, "we know what's good for the unwashed masses" mentality
exists everywhere and in infinite situations. (Dare I say it
even exists to some extent in the reptile community.) What has
been helpful, at least to me, is specific information regarding
who is behind this legislation and what their motivation is.
To be totally honest, I almost tuned out because of all the
non-specific rhetoric I've been reading. Anyway, just my opinion.

Thanks,
Ed

>>I've just skimmed the latest, but I want to add something. Hope it's relevant, but not redundant.
>>
>>Regarding those people that are against private ownership, the way I see it, it is a mentality or a mindset of those that hold themselves intellectually superior to most. I call them the academic intelligentsia. They believe only they are intelligent and sophisticated enough to possess, interact, observe and study wildlife. The rest of us are a bunch of cretins that can do nothing but bring harm to animals. They hold us in contempt.
>>Of course, we know that isn't the reality of the situation at all.
>>
>>jsc
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>>"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
>>John Crickmer