Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Tyrosinase-positive - an albino not able to synthesize melanin, but capable of synthesizing tyrosinase, which results in lavender-brown skin color.

Has anybody given any thought to this being the source of Extremes? Many of the recent posts about Extremes have centered around Snows that look gray, Anerys that look brown and possible Hybinos that look lavender. Take a look at the T-Positive Nicaraguan Boas. The Hypo Nics have a cleaner pattern but the black areas are still black. The T-Positive Nics are much cleaner and the black is reduced to a gray color. Does this not sound like an Extreme Hypo Honduran. This may also explain the theory that the Extreme gene is seperate and apart from the Hypo gene. Could this be the reason that a Snow or Albino has color added to it? It does not appear to be a logical argument that a Hypo gene would add color to a Snow or an Albino. What do the rest of you think?

Thanks!

Joe Exposito
Thoroughbred Exotics, LLC

of thought.

I've posted on this very subject before Joe. I personally think that there are 4 genes (maybe 5) out there.

Hypo, Anery, Amel, T+ Amel(Extreme Falcon), and T+ Amel (Xtreme Terry's stuff).

I think that Terry's stuff is just a more reduced T+ Amel gene that may or may not be compatable with the Falcon line.

Here's a link to my other post:

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1404215,1405453

http://msnusers.com/BallPythons/abreifdiscriptionofsomemorphs.msnw

Take a look at the "Caramel Albino (Tyrosinase +)" and the "Caramel Albino(T+) and Hypomelanistic"...looks like an extreme hypo to me.

I'm glad you're have the same kinda of thoughts Joe...

This year we should know a lot more with Terry's breeding plans...

-Rusty

Rusty, I also think that Terry's stuff is a different line than Falcon's but I am not convinced that either one is actually t but I would say if one was it would be Terry's.

L8r

If we agree that his snake is minimally triple het then there are already possible double forms yet unidentified within his line. The only real way to test it is to breed the nicest male EXTREME(figuring it to be both hypo and t )to a het for nothing snake and then recross the babies. There are no shortcuts. It would be a waste for Terry to do this because he can use his snake to produce so many more incredible snakes. But I really suggest everyone that has adult EXTREMES come on here and share all breeding trial info, present and past. This is another great reason good records are vital. Maybe there has been a result in the past that can shed light on what is going on.....

I am all over it already. My tri-colored hypo extreme is from Terry's triple het male bred to a normal looking hypo female that is possible het amel.He is possible het anery and amel and I hope to prove him out this year.I will be breeding him to a plain jane tangerine that's not carrying any genes.

L8r

Well hell, sign me up for a pair of those offspring!

Best,
Vinny
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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles

got it.
L8r

oh boy, Jeff will be smiling now.LOL..... you opened up a big can of worms.
Anyway, there is always a possibility of this but without the true test being done its only speculation.
And I think you meant to say t cause t- is what we already see in the amels.
Also, Maybe Terry's stuff is t cause it still tipps up pretty good and seems to be almost co-dom as I know that the triple het male that started it has produced extremes when bred to non related other animals.I think that Falcon's is more of a extreme version of the already established hypo line.food for thought.
I will be breeding a Terry extreme to a falcon extreme this year.Thing is I am sure I will see visual extreme's no matter what cause Terry's seems to pass over no matter what.

Shannon

LOL

Joe I see what you are saying and it sounds like what we might have going on in our Xtremes and extremes,I am using Xtreme name on the line I have,just to keep them seperate somewhat.We know something is going on just by the color of the grey colors produced in the hypos and the snow
Terry M

Or, this is another way of looking at it. Below a quote from vin Russos book, which discusses incomplete dominance. This also would appear to explain many of the things we are seeing with the Extremes. Things like visual indicators, which could explian the tricolor and Anery that Don has. The super form, which could be Terry M's animal when bred to a triple het would produce an entire cluch of homozygous or visually heterozygous animals.

"Incomplete Dominance
For many years, re[tilesbreeders have erroneously used the term "co-dominant" when in reality they are referring to incomplete dominance. Incomplete dominance is similar to a recessive trait, in that the heterozygous offspring are gene carriers for a specific trait. However, in breeding scenarios where incomplete domonance is involved the heterozygous animals have a visual indicator and therefore are referred to as "visually heterozygous." This means the offspring exhibit another type of color or pattern that is halfway between the normal appearance and the "super" or more exaggerated dominant form. So if you breed boas to each other that have an incomplete dominant trait and that are visually heterozygous for an extreme trait, you will have a one-in-four chance of producing the super exgaggerated form which will be dominant. When this boa is then bred to a normal, all of the litter will be visually heterozygous offspring. And finally, if you breed these visual hets to a normal you will get 50% visual hets and 50% normal appearing boas."(Vincent Russo, The Complete Boa Constrictor;ECO Publishing,2007)

Joe here the clutch mystery male x triple het
the nice male was still in the egg

Terry M

Terry is that the Tricolor Don has? Also, where did his Anery come from? The Albinos in that clutch may be the fly in the ointment of this theory, as they do not appear to show any signs of gray or extreme. The wheeles will continue to turn.

Thanks!

Joe Exposito
Thoroughbred Exotics, LLC

Hey Joe,

Can you explain what you mean by "fly in the ointment".

The male (for argument sake is Xtreme, het Amel, het Anery, and het Hypo but he also has a reduced pattern which some may consider a type of Hypo as well).

He was bread back to his mother (I believe) and to another triple het female (related? Terry help me out?).

Therefore half of the clutch should show the Xtreme trait (which basically did happen) the other half will show either nothing (wild caught) or the hets will combine and show Amels, Anerys, Hypos...all which are Het Xtreme.

right?

-Rusty

The anery came from Terry but the tri-color came from Jeff Aloway although from the same Xtreme. Don

It's still AMAZING!

RIP Xtreme Ghost...poor guy.

"super exgaggerated form which will be dominant. When this boa is then bred to a normal, all of the litter will be visually heterozygous offspring."

This is the part of the quote from above that I am refering to. If Terry M's animal was a super form then by this definition all of the clutch would show some visual signs of being het. Although, They could be Hybinos or het for Extreme and for some reason the visual het trait can not be seen with the albinos.

?

Thanks!

Joe Exposito
Thoroughbred Exotics, LLC

Joe,he was bred to 2 triple hets,14 hatched,7 were visual xtremes and only 2 normallooking animals,one female was related and one was not.So I am very excited about this years breedings I have planned
Terry M

I haven't heard or read about the "super exgaggerated" stuff before...very interesting!

I would have to say that this could be a possibility when you look at the Tri-color and Anery (from Terry) that Don Shores has...the only thing is the appearance (grey/silver) seems to increase or present with age...kinda like a reverse process of a black milk.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts....this kinda of genetic stuff is what makes Hondurans interesting to me!

-Rusty

Rusty, this should be a very interesting year for Hondurans.

Good luck with your projects!

Thanks!

Joe Exposito
Thoroughbred Exotics, LLC

I think alot of colubrid guys are too quick to take lessons learned from boids and try and transfer them to colubrids. To my knowledge, there hasnt been a co dom color mutation in any colubrid(patterns yes). Because of this our first thought should always be recessive and work backwards from there. Multi-gene unknowns are very tough, especially if you are seeing everything for the first time. There very well may be a multi-gene effect, but lets just share info and we can get this figured out quicker.

I have Russo's boa constrictor book. I think the genetics chapter (from which the quote comes) is disappointing. Some of the terminology is either misleading or wrong. This includes making a distinction between codominance and incomplete dominance. We are working with breeding patterns, and both codominance and incomplete dominance have the same breeding pattern. Beyond that level, the texts do not agree on definitions. And saying that a super is dominant is just plain wrong. Originally, a super was homozygous for a mutant gene that is codominant to its normal allele. The term has been used so loosely that now a super seems to be homozygous for a mutant gene that is either dominant or codominant to its normal allele.

Paul Hollander

Since I dont have any extremes to test I'll have to sit back and wait for others to do it if its not already been done. But has anyone bred an extreme to a normal het for nothin' and then bred the resulting "hets" to each other?

Best,
Vinny
-----
“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles

working on it as we speak.

np