Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Just curious, but it seems as if, everyone is of the opinion that the burms, retics, etc. that have become established in the everglades were a result of inept or novice pet owners releasing them into the wild. While this may account for a very small number of these occurences, it seems as if no one has taken into account that South Florida is one of the few Hubs ( and not sure of the numbers but would be willing to bet that it comprises the majority of the reptiles that enter the US) if you will of importation of reptiles and amphibians for the entire US. Consider the iguana and how its become established. I worked for an importer twenty years ago, and can tell you that sickly, animals that were not "likely" to make it were "tossed" out the back door or into the trash. How much more likely is it that over the years these animals became established in much the same way. Less likely to happen today but a breeding population does not happen overnight. Just food for thought.
-----
Primeval-Beauty
"Finding beauty where other's fear to tread"

Not to mention the sheer volume of escapes involved. I worked for a small scale importer and at the time I can assure you his caging was never up to snuff. And countless escapees were lost and some found. I can't imagine a large scale operation, especially 20 or more years ago, having much better standards or equipment (though I'm certain some did). Therefore it stands to reason that the escapees from a large scale operation happenned on. . . well a larger scale -
-----
Primeval-Beauty
"Finding beauty where other's fear to tread"

Good points and unfortunately very true. This is why South Florida Water Management District is asking U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to stop all importation by placing Burms and other species on the Lacy act 's list of injurious wildlife.

The real question is why can't Florida pass it's own law banning importation into there own state. Why are they asking a federal agency to do the dirty work for them and thereby restricting all other states’ right to regulate there own affairs. California has laws against various injurious wildlife that don’t affect other states. For example, in California it is illegal to own, or bring into the state, ferrets or gerbils. Hawaii has laws against all snakes. So why doesn’t Florida take care of its own business without requesting the federal government to impose laws onto the county as a whole?

Just my thoughts

-----
Larry Walker

WebSite

This is supporting why I think importing is cruel and unnecessary at this stage in the industry. Cruel to the animals, environment and the rest of the ecosystem that it is impacting.

Just my opinion, now let the dogs loose.

Here we go again.

It might have to do with the Lacey Act already existing so maybe it's an easier route for government power to expand by adding new species to an existing law rather than passing a new law. What government group gets to enforce and the bureaucratic system of changing the list vs. the legislative system of making a new law probably also come into play. Why work to build a new fence when you already own a big powerful loaded shotgun that's a lot more fun.

I just can't see how the Lacey Act would do any good as there are already captive snakes of every species in Florida. It might be mainly targeted at international imports but are there really that many giants still imported? Seems like Florida breeders should already be producing as many Burmese and Reticulated morphs as the market wants so what are the numbers for imported normals now days anyway?

Yes there are still plenty of "giants" being imported. When they can bring in burms for less than $10 ea. why would they breed them? Same goes for retics, bloods, balls....you get the point. It's cheaper to import than to breed.

I do think imports on some level should be restricted, but not to the point they are taking. We could all soon be outlaws. I don't see how they could ever enforce this ban. There are too many of us to punish at once.....I hope.

Brandon Osborne
-----
www.brandonosbornereptiles.com

I guess that's the same reason they still import so many normal ball pythons. I'd be interested if the Burms and Retics are actually being farmed unlike the ball pythons where the fully wild bred nests can be regularly found and dug up.

So IF they really think cheap imports are adding to the problem why not put a $20 per head tariff on them and use the money to eradicate burms in the Everglades? Sure that would suck for the importers but it could be targeted by species and would restrict a lot fewer personal liberties and be a lot more enforceable than banning intrastate transfer for the 48 states where sustainable python colonies aren't a concern.

The South Florida Water Management District doesn't know how to manage money as it is, or solve water problems, so I don't think they could care about Burmese Pythons in the Everglades. Seems more like they are looking for a scapegoat that may strike fear in the hearts of the general public. Contact Skip Snow, and you'll find out just how much they know, or don't know, about the whole situation. Yet, they play the doomsday scenario over and over again.

Good point, giving the government any money is pretty much a waste. I'd still rather see a tariff than a ban on imports.

For ball pythons I suppose a tariff would have a big negative impact on the exporting countries to worry about. Presumably at some level the demand for more expensive imports would go down and there would be a lot less people digging up ball python eggs. That reduced mining of the wild population would likely reduce finding new morphs but if something new was still found it could still be legally imported. Higher prices and fewer imports might just have the effect of making the animals less disposable on this side though.

Still there will be some expenses to removing nuisance Everglades burms and running a program like the current licensing, chipping, and registration of captive burms to try to prevent further releases. If continued burmese python importation is determined to be part of the problem (and I don’t know if that has been proven) it seems that using the cost of a tariff in imported burms to reduce the number of imported burms and the moneys generated from that tariff to fund the effort to prevent and deal with released burms would be fair. But it would probably never work out in the real world.

Here's a though for everyone to consider: If we were to ban, or severely restrict animals being exported from foreign countries, these animals will become disposable in those countries. I understand they already are to a point, but just imagine what the Asian markets could do to the percentages that are exported for the pet trade. If they can't send them here, they will send them to the next higgest bidder, which could very well be a cannery over in China or something of the like.

The thought that these feral populations can be eliminated is noble, but it will never happen. Instead, they can be managed. Burmese Pythons are just a blip on the radar of feral species here in Florida. It is only as of recent that they have become a so called problem. They, and many other Reptiles, Mammals, Birds, Plants, etc are now being pushed to the fringes because of habitat destruction or manipulation. They have been here for a long while and have had established populations for years. Hurricane Andrew didn't help, I know of many Hobbyists, Zoos, and Animal parks that lost ( as in escaped ) animals, so I doubt the importers have had very little to do with the established Burm population.

Well... here's another interesting fact. The South Florida Water Management District’s request was made in 2006. In 2007, Florida passed laws (which went into effect Jan. 1, 2008) that put animals on their "Reptiles of Concern" list. So their requests could be considered out of date and and inappropriate. If Florida wanted stronger laws... they could have passed stronger laws. If Florida doesn’t feel the need to pass laws banning importation, Why should the US Fish and Wildlife impose it on the the rest of the country, which doen’t have a problem?

Here's Florida's Reptiles of Concern (ROCs) Law...
"Reptiles of Concern (ROCs) are nonnative reptile species that have the potential to become established in Florida and can threaten native wildlife, cause economic damage or pose a threat to human safety. Rules for Reptiles of Concern (ROCs) go into effect on January 1, 2008. ROCs require a $100 annual permit for personal possession, and any ROC that is 2 inches or greater in diameter must be permanently identified by a microchip (also called a PIT tag). Microchips can be implanted by local veterinarians who work with nonnative species. Any person who possesses an ROC that is 2 inches or greater in diameter before January 1, 2008 will have until July 1, 2008 to get their animal microchipped. Any ROC greater than 2 inches in diameter purchased after January 1, 2008 will need to be microchipped immediately. The following are the Reptiles of Concern:

Burmese python (Python molurus)
African rock python (Python sebae)
Amethystine python (Morelia amethystinus)
Reticulated python (Python reticulatus)
Green anaconda (Eunectes murinus)
Nile monitor (Varanus niloticus)"

Just some thoughts
-----
Larry Walker

WebSite

same difference.....intentional release,accidental,or release/thrown out ,and oops it didn't die....

...Florida is over-run with hundreds of plant and animal species that don't belong there......so is Pa and every other state......some were put there BY the state for a reason ,and just went wrong......

as for importing wild anything (almost) why bother,,.I agree...

as for now let the dogs out......dogs run free and are a big feral problem all over the US also.....and cats, cats don't even belong here at all.......and people that let them outside should expect them to get run over or worse......and yes, the wild dogs eat the wild cats if they can......along with coyotes.......

.......anyways.......wonder what we'll all breed when snakes aren't allowed?.......

.....
-----
..........I love how people email you and say
"I'm not trying to start a fight"......
........isn't that like the guarantee that they want fighting feedback???

anyways.................makes me smile???...LOL
..................
.

cats are the most destructive "alien" in our natural ecosystems. They kill off millions of bird and rodent species every year. Cats kill other animals just to kill. Maybe we should petition congress to add the house cat to the Lacey Act since it is far more dangerous to the environment and even people (they spread all kinds of nasty disease) than any wild burmese has done. Oh wait, people love cute fuzzy things, we are screwed. Well not really, now is the time to unite, despite our differences and fight the powers that be. This not something that we can sit back and say "it will never pass" we did that in florida and now it's basically impossible to sell any of the large constrictors within the state.
-----
Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons, boas, dogs, cats, fish, an amel tiger retic female, a couple sulcatas and a few other odds and ends.

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

cats are very good killers.........that makes them bad......

......YouTube the cat.......I mean tiger, jumping up and getting a guy ON an elephant........great jump.......man......

,......

..........Florida........so now at Daytona there are NO BIG snakes allowed???...........so where are they going to move the Expo???..........

......
.
.
.
-----
..........I love how people email you and say
"I'm not trying to start a fight"......
........isn't that like the guarantee that they want fighting feedback???

anyways.................makes me smile???...LOL
..................
.

I know the florida breeders that have big snakes will be there with them. Any sales they have will have to be shipped to the buyers or to local florida peeps that have the permit as well. If this new addition to the Lacey Act goes through though, I guess there will be no more Daytona or any other very large scale show.
-----
Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons, boas, dogs, cats, fish, an amel tiger retic female, a couple sulcatas and a few other odds and ends.

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

nice video... oh and nice sig
-----

I thought you'd like it......

.......the video too.........

.....

........got my first eggs today.......amel Zululand house's......they may not make it........

.....last year's total was like 860 eggs......

....so........I am allowed...........

.....smile.....

good luck........
.
.
.
.
.
-----
..........I love how people email you and say
"I'm not trying to start a fight"......
........isn't that like the guarantee that they want fighting feedback???

anyways.................makes me smile???...LOL
..................
.

Josh, just to clarify a point that you made . . . I personally attended a forum here in Central Florida put on by Fl Fish and Game to speak against the proposed ROC list that was eventually adopted. There were many, many reptile enthusiasts at just that one meeting speaking out against the ban. I also wrote letters and I know others did as well. We were not completely successful, but quite a bit of the language was changed for the better. In my opinion, we did not "sit back and say "it will never pass." Now, could more people have done more? Absolutely. Do I wish that the revised ROC language had been eliminated entirely? You bet your sweet a%&.

I hope those who said they were going to respond to these new proposed federal regs, do so. I also hope that they take the time to let their well thought out opinions be known to their elected officials. It is again time to speak up and do it repeatedly.
-----
Alice Cobb
Florida Reptile Room