Reptile & Amphibian Forums

We are doing exactly what they want us to do. We are fighting about something that has little to do with the matter at hand. We all know 57% of the country does not like G.W. Bush. Each person has their own reason for this. He will be out of office shortly replaced with either the first woman or first black president. I am a registered republican that will not vote this election, just like last election because I don't think there is a candidate that deserves my vote (democrat or republican).

With that said, all the fighting done below is useless for our cause. We must organize a means to fight this addition to the Lacey Act. Speaking with some good friends of mine, Chris and Sheila McQuade from Gulf Coast Reptiles we came up with a few ideas that we would like some help from others out there. First we have both agreed to help finance a full page add in REPTILES magazine that will have a pre-laid out petition to be mailed in to allow every subscriber and person that picks up their magazine on the news-stand to voice their opinion very easily. Also we would like every local show to pass out copies of these forms to every person that comes through the door and give a $2 off admission for those that fill out the form. What we would like is if there is anyone out there with legal petition work and familiar with the requirements they are asking for regarding the letters they are asking for to assist us with drafting the form for reptile magazine and shows. This form must be easy to fill out and supply the info the request. PLEASE LET'S GET TOGETHER AND QUIT FIGHTING EACH OTHER, WE ALL HAVE DIFFERENT OPINIONS AND BEING ABLE TO VOICE THEM IS WHAT IS GREAT ABOUT THIS COUNTRY BUT LET'S STOP THIS ENCROACHMENT ON OUR RIGHTS THEN WE CAN ARGUE ABOUT OTHER THINGS.

Joshua Hutto
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Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons, boas, dogs, cats, fish, an amel tiger retic female, a couple sulcatas and a few other odds and ends.

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

No Post

That is well thought out, thank you!
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Todd Hughes

Josh & everyone else reading, I didn't come here to fight or argue with anyone. I presented some very good material that the majority of people are not aware of or choose to ignore. You're trying to sound like some big man peace keeper when yourself ignored everything except for the idiots attacking the posted your own stupid comment. I'm not paranoid I'm just more conscience of what is going on in the world today and I fear my government.

Quote from Thomas Jefferson “Any society that would give up Liberty to gain a little security deserve neither and lose both.

Before attacking me again and this is not meant as an attack on you or anyone personally but people have to stop being so lazy and mainstream. They need to kick themselves out of the box a little and research some, all or more of what I presented below and vote for Ron Paul.

I like your ideas about circulating petitions through Reptiles Shows and having a full page ad in REPTILES MAGAZINE but my personal view is I think REPTILES MAGAZINE should support the hobby that supports them by not charging anyone to insert such a pettition.

Steve Markevich
The Radical Truth About Dr. Ron Paul

The original quote was "those who would give up individual liberties to obtain temporary shelter deserve neither liberty or shelter." But the fact still remains that your whole conspiracy theory is still ridiculous and has nothing to do with the issue at hand. This is an excellent year for this to happen btw. it is an election year. If you want to really scare a lot of republican congressmen tell them this legislation angers you and then use the "L-word" no, not lesbian,,,Libertarian tell them this legislation angers you and if they don't stop it you 'll vote for the libertarian candidate instead of voting for them. Telling them you vote democrat is a lame liberal trick and doesn't work but telling a republican you'll vote libertarian scares the hell out of them. I should know I come from a staunchly republican family and believe me they are scared of the L-word. I don't know what strategy will work on democrats but this one will work on republicans and it works quite well. Libertarian candidates have cost them several political seats over the years and was a factor in the 2000 election fiasco and they know it so they take it seriously. that said I still think your theories are crazy.

My mistake and thank you for the correction, it was Ben Frankin

I'm not going to argue with you but will ask nicely to look into for yourself my presentation.

Thanks,
Steve Markevich
This man has my vote! self - explained

I agree with the reptiles magazine idea and others too...I'm sure there are pleny here (including myself) that would be willing to give a little money to help pay for the ad, and other things too...if enough people pitched in, the cost to each would be near nothing. Maybe someone who is highly respected and trusted on this forum and is working on this issue could set up a fund for donations.
About the previous discussion; it is OT, but I don't think anyone was really getting into an all-out-fight about it, and I don't think it was keeping any of us from the issue at hand...it was just more entertaining then anything. I think it's ok to have OT discussions every now and then, and if someone whats to participate, then good, and if not, then just skip the whole thread and don't worry about it. Just my take on it anyways
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-David

Check out my pet pics at:
http://www.myspace.com/obx_fisherman

1.0 ball python (Pandora - don't ask)
1.0 argentine boa (Prometheus)
0.1 hogg island boa (Andromeda)
0.0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (Inara)
1.0 kenyan sand boa (Diablo)
1.0 normal corn snake(Cypress)
0.1 amel. corn snake (Morgan LaFay) RIP
0.0.2 baby corns (Romulus and Remus)
- 1 normal, 1 ghost
0.0.1 banded cali. kingsnake (Cain)
1.0 tangerine honduran milksnake (Narcissus)
0.0.1 snow corn snake (Valkyrie)
1.0 amazon tree boa (Pegasus)
1.0 colombian boa (Athena, for now)
0.1 albino san diego gopher snake (maybe Octavian)
0.0.1 sandfish skink (Slick)
0.0.1 fire skink (Phoenix)
1.0 dog (Luke)

the wife's pets:
1.0 bearded dragon (Leonidas)
1.1 ferrets (Ares, Enyo)
1.2 cats (Galahad, Ripley and Sassy)
0.1 Boxer (Zoe)
2.0 rats

NEWEST ADDITIONS:
1.0 adult Dumeril's boa (maybe Hannibal)
0.0.1 baby yellow amazon tree boa (affectionately called
Snuggles)

I think people have brought up some very good points about becoming more organized, writing letters in proper forms, and reaching herpers through magazines ads and shows.

I don't think 'they' want us to divide, argue, and become more unorganized. We're talking about adults and the government. You may not like certain facets of the government, but the bottom line is...every person in it honestly believes they are doing the best thing. (Yes, even corruption is geared toward doing the best thing...if you favor the corruption theories). People aren't perfect and we all make mistakes. Gasp...even politicians.

There are certain issues that cannot be swept under the table. The breeding Nile Monitor population in South and West Florida is having an effect on Burrowing Owls. The Burmese Pythons are alive and well in the Everglade regions. Green Iguanas are all over the place and most of the citizens don't like them. I'm not sure of the numbers, but now there is an established boa population. We do get hurricanes and tornadoes on occasion, so what happens to the exotics who are left behind or victims of damaged facilities?

The people charged with taking care of these problems are trying to do something. While each one of us reading the boards may not have had a part in what happened, we will reap the consequences. With the ROC permitting law this year, I think the state was hoping to get some accountability and fund efforts to 'fix the problem'. Other states are coming on board and some are also worrying about what would happen with a large population of exotics in their regions.

I don't want to say that we have to sympathize with the governmental point of view, but by looking at the issue from their eyes, we will be in a better position to present our side. How can we provide answers if we don't understand their questions? If we are concerned about our personal property rights, can we find a precedent, or at least address their concerns about public safety in a unemotional, practical manner? I'm sure that much of this proposed legislation is fear-based. A lot of people don't like snakes, so education is the key. Knowledge is power!

Internet boards are funny creatures because so many can post with a certain degree of anonymity and little accountability. Tone of voice doesn't always come through and mud-slinging is rampant. The intent of this post was to add a little perspective without rambling too much. Perhaps it was better suited under the letter writing thread, but I stuck here because it's where I stopped reading....

You are absolutely right.

The best chance we have is to come up with an alternative solution to the problem.

I think we could start by exploring a few basic questions that do not involve restrictions.

How do we reduce / eliminate the wild populations of non native reptiles?

How do we pay for it?

What do we do with the ones that are captured?

How do we accomplish above with out sensationalized / negative media coverage?
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PIJAC Member

what do you mean "alternative solutions"? Parts of Florida has problems with iguanas and burmese pythons, but the state (and probably some localities) has attempted to address their specific problems already so what alternative solutions would you suggest? I live in the mountains of Virginia, and there are no populations of burmese pythons reeking havoc here, and I don't step out into my back yard and see iguanas everywhere. So why would you go to the federal government and start suggesting "alternative solutions"???? It's almost like admitting that there is a national problem, and there isn't. It's stuff like that that I was talking about being discussed in other forums, and I think that mentality can be more detrimental to the hobby than anything else. If a locality has an issue, they should deal with it. If you live in Florida, and they have a problem in Alaska with cockatiels, it wouldn't be right for the national government to ban them everywhere, the local government should solve their problem. If you have suggestions to help Florida and their problem, then submit it to them. As for this inquiry into boas, pythons, and anacondas, there is NO national threat to wildlife or public saftey, so it should simply be completely opposed based in that.
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-David

Check out my pet pics at:
http://www.myspace.com/obx_fisherman

1.0 ball python (Pandora - don't ask)
1.0 argentine boa (Prometheus)
0.1 hogg island boa (Andromeda)
0.0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (Inara)
1.0 kenyan sand boa (Diablo)
1.0 normal corn snake(Cypress)
0.1 amel. corn snake (Morgan LaFay) RIP
0.0.2 baby corns (Romulus and Remus)
- 1 normal, 1 ghost
0.0.1 banded cali. kingsnake (Cain)
1.0 tangerine honduran milksnake (Narcissus)
0.0.1 snow corn snake (Valkyrie)
1.0 amazon tree boa (Pegasus)
1.0 colombian boa (Athena, for now)
0.1 albino san diego gopher snake (maybe Octavian)
0.0.1 sandfish skink (Slick)
0.0.1 fire skink (Phoenix)
1.0 dog (Luke)

the wife's pets:
1.0 bearded dragon (Leonidas)
1.1 ferrets (Ares, Enyo)
1.2 cats (Galahad, Ripley and Sassy)
0.1 Boxer (Zoe)
2.0 rats

NEWEST ADDITIONS:
1.0 adult Dumeril's boa (maybe Hannibal)
0.0.1 baby yellow amazon tree boa (affectionately called
Snuggles)

>>what do you mean "alternative solutions"? Parts of Florida has problems with iguanas and burmese pythons, but the state (and probably some localities) has attempted to address their specific problems already so what alternative solutions would you suggest? I live in the mountains of Virginia, and there are no populations of burmese pythons reeking havoc here, and I don't step out into my back yard and see iguanas everywhere. So why would you go to the federal government and start suggesting "alternative solutions"???? It's almost like admitting that there is a national problem, and there isn't. It's stuff like that that I was talking about being discussed in other forums, and I think that mentality can be more detrimental to the hobby than anything else. If a locality has an issue, they should deal with it. If you live in Florida, and they have a problem in Alaska with cockatiels, it wouldn't be right for the national government to ban them everywhere, the local government should solve their problem. If you have suggestions to help Florida and their problem, then submit it to them. As for this inquiry into boas, pythons, and anacondas, there is NO national threat to wildlife or public saftey, so it should simply be completely opposed based in that.
>>-----
>>-David
>>
>>Check out my pet pics at:
>>http://www.myspace.com/obx_fisherman
>>
>>1.0 ball python (Pandora - don't ask)
>>1.0 argentine boa (Prometheus)
>>0.1 hogg island boa (Andromeda)
>>0.0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (Inara)
>>1.0 kenyan sand boa (Diablo)
>>1.0 normal corn snake(Cypress)
>>0.1 amel. corn snake (Morgan LaFay) RIP
>>0.0.2 baby corns (Romulus and Remus)
>>- 1 normal, 1 ghost
>>0.0.1 banded cali. kingsnake (Cain)
>>1.0 tangerine honduran milksnake (Narcissus)
>>0.0.1 snow corn snake (Valkyrie)
>>1.0 amazon tree boa (Pegasus)
>>1.0 colombian boa (Athena, for now)
>>0.1 albino san diego gopher snake (maybe Octavian)
>>0.0.1 sandfish skink (Slick)
>>0.0.1 fire skink (Phoenix)
>>1.0 dog (Luke)
>>
>>the wife's pets:
>>1.0 bearded dragon (Leonidas)
>>1.1 ferrets (Ares, Enyo)
>>1.2 cats (Galahad, Ripley and Sassy)
>>0.1 Boxer (Zoe)
>>2.0 rats
>>
>>NEWEST ADDITIONS:
>>1.0 adult Dumeril's boa (maybe Hannibal)
>>0.0.1 baby yellow amazon tree boa (affectionately called
>> Snuggles)

Dave,

I tried to keep my previous post short, and in doing so I may have given you the wrong idea.

I can tell by your post that you are passionate about your animals as am I.

I am against what the USFWS is considering proposing and I do not feel that it will accomplish their stated goal or benefit anyone. I am not admitting or denying there is a problem in Florida as I have no first hand knowledge of such. Like you, I understand that this could not be an issue in the Continental United States except extreme southern portions of Florida and Texas.

The fact is; Florida Officials believe they have a problem and are taking steps to try and do something about it. Again I do not agree with their course of action or that of the USFWS.

The purpose of my previous post was to facilitate a positive discussion with the goal of finding an alternative solution to propose. By alternative, I was thinking along lines of physically removing or reducing the wild populations of said non natives in South Florida. Someone out there may have a good idea. I think it is at least worth exploring.
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PIJAC Member

I don't know what the solution is either. I feel that state governments should have the authority to make their own decisions, and that a Federal ban, permit, or census, etc is unnecessary and redundant. It doesn't really matter if a Burm could survive in your state or not. When officials of any government see what is happening in S. FL, imaginations run wild. Again, education is the key. Heck, Burms probably couldn't even survive in N FL, so why have state wide legislation?

We don't have to agree with what they're doing, but we have to see it from their point of view. Once we see it from the other perspective, we can communicate in a more effective manner.

I may face issues with my exotics because of the hullaboo concerning hots kept in residential areas in Central FL. I don't even keep hots, but I can try to see how people think. In this way I can present my case without emotion and sensationalism.

Alternatives...Hmm...I'm more of the mind that the Feds need to back down on this one and let each state decide for itself. Likewise, the local gov needs to trust the state's wildlife controls.

>>I don't know what the solution is either. I feel that state governments should have the authority to make their own decisions, and that a Federal ban, permit, or census, etc is unnecessary and redundant. It doesn't really matter if a Burm could survive in your state or not. When officials of any government see what is happening in S. FL, imaginations run wild. Again, education is the key. Heck, Burms probably couldn't even survive in N FL, so why have state wide legislation?
>>
>>We don't have to agree with what they're doing, but we have to see it from their point of view. Once we see it from the other perspective, we can communicate in a more effective manner.
>>
>>I may face issues with my exotics because of the hullaboo concerning hots kept in residential areas in Central FL. I don't even keep hots, but I can try to see how people think. In this way I can present my case without emotion and sensationalism.
>>
>>Alternatives...Hmm...I'm more of the mind that the Feds need to back down on this one and let each state decide for itself. Likewise, the local gov needs to trust the state's wildlife controls.

I apologize; I thought I made it very clear that I was against the Feds considering the proposal. This means I agree with you that the “Feds should back down on this one” and I am against federal regulation.

You are aware that this is the State of Florida, or more specifically the South Florida Water Management District, that is petitioning the Federal government to place these snakes on the list. “Let each state decide for it’s self” This is what Florida decided to do.

Here is the link with the petition. http://www.fws.gov/policy/library/E8-1770.html

We are going to fight back and I am not advocating compromise, but until Florida feels like they have a solution they are going to keep fighting us. When I ask to discus alternatives it was to fight the battle from all angles.
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PIJAC Member

I must apologize cause I did take what you said wrong...I agree that the local authorities should try to find a way to resolve the issue, and if we do have good ideas, we should shoot them on down to Florida! I guess I took it wrong because I check out some other forums, and people are talking about contacting the feds and offering a compromise; most of these people haven't read a thing, just saw the "proposed ban" title on an article or somewhere. Something that came to mind yesterday while I was out and about, was this: it appears that the SFWMD submitted their petition prior to the new laws in Florida aimed at controlling the issue of burmese pythons...would it be possible to contact them, and ask them to retract their petition? If they did that, would this change anything? Has anyone looked into this yet?
-----
-David

Check out my pet pics at:
http://www.myspace.com/obx_fisherman

1.0 ball python (Pandora - don't ask)
1.0 argentine boa (Prometheus)
0.0.1 colombian boa (Athena)
0.1 hogg island boa (Andromeda)
0.0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (Inara)
1.0 Dumeril's boa (Hannibal)
1.0 kenyan sand boa (Diablo)
0.0.1 normal corn snake(Cypress)
0.1 amel. corn snake (Morgan LaFay) RIP
0.0.2 baby corns (Romulus and Remus)
- 1 normal, 1 ghost
0.0.1 banded cali. kingsnake (Cain)
1.0 tangerine honduran milksnake (Narcissus)
0.0.1 snow corn snake (Valkyrie)
1.1 garden phase amazon tree boas (Pegasus, Lenore)
0.0.1 baby yellow amazon tree boa (affectionately called
Snuggles)
0.0.1 albino san diego gopher snake (maybe Octavian)
0.0.1 sandfish skink (Slick)
0.0.1 fire skink (Phoenix)
1.0 bassett hound/black and tan coonhound mix (Luke)
0.1 Boxer (Zoe)
1.0 bearded dragon (Leonidas)
1.1 ferrets (Ares, Enyo)
1.2 cats (Galahad, Ripley and Sassy)
2.0 rats (Pan, no name yet)

>>I must apologize cause I did take what you said wrong...I agree that the local authorities should try to find a way to resolve the issue, and if we do have good ideas, we should shoot them on down to Florida! I guess I took it wrong because I check out some other forums, and people are talking about contacting the feds and offering a compromise; most of these people haven't read a thing, just saw the "proposed ban" title on an article or somewhere. Something that came to mind yesterday while I was out and about, was this: it appears that the SFWMD submitted their petition prior to the new laws in Florida aimed at controlling the issue of burmese pythons...would it be possible to contact them, and ask them to retract their petition? If they did that, would this change anything? Has anyone looked into this yet?
>>-----
>>-David
>>
>>Check out my pet pics at:
>>http://www.myspace.com/obx_fisherman
>>
>>1.0 ball python (Pandora - don't ask)
>>1.0 argentine boa (Prometheus)
>>0.0.1 colombian boa (Athena)
>>0.1 hogg island boa (Andromeda)
>>0.0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (Inara)
>>1.0 Dumeril's boa (Hannibal)
>>1.0 kenyan sand boa (Diablo)
>>0.0.1 normal corn snake(Cypress)
>>0.1 amel. corn snake (Morgan LaFay) RIP
>>0.0.2 baby corns (Romulus and Remus)
>>- 1 normal, 1 ghost
>>0.0.1 banded cali. kingsnake (Cain)
>>1.0 tangerine honduran milksnake (Narcissus)
>>0.0.1 snow corn snake (Valkyrie)
>>1.1 garden phase amazon tree boas (Pegasus, Lenore)
>>0.0.1 baby yellow amazon tree boa (affectionately called
>> Snuggles)
>>0.0.1 albino san diego gopher snake (maybe Octavian)
>>0.0.1 sandfish skink (Slick)
>>0.0.1 fire skink (Phoenix)
>>1.0 bassett hound/black and tan coonhound mix (Luke)
>>0.1 Boxer (Zoe)
>>1.0 bearded dragon (Leonidas)
>>1.1 ferrets (Ares, Enyo)
>>1.2 cats (Galahad, Ripley and Sassy)
>>2.0 rats (Pan, no name yet)
-----
PIJAC Member

>>>>I must apologize cause I did take what you said wrong...I agree that the local authorities should try to find a way to resolve the issue, and if we do have good ideas, we should shoot them on down to Florida! I guess I took it wrong because I check out some other forums, and people are talking about contacting the feds and offering a compromise; most of these people haven't read a thing, just saw the "proposed ban" title on an article or somewhere. Something that came to mind yesterday while I was out and about, was this: it appears that the SFWMD submitted their petition prior to the new laws in Florida aimed at controlling the issue of burmese pythons...would it be possible to contact them, and ask them to retract their petition? If they did that, would this change anything? Has anyone looked into this yet?
>>>>-----
>>>>-David
>>>>
>>No problem Dave, communication goes both ways and I was not clear enough.

The most important thing is for everyone to come together and fight this as one. It does not matter what we keep, breed, where we live, or how we feel about imports, venomous or escaped reptiles. We can sort through all those issues after we secure the future of our hobby.
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PIJAC Member

While there is nothing for me disagree with I would like to say that the problems of these invasive introduced herps are largely limited to South Florida. And as such it should be addressed as a local issue, not a nationwide epidemic..... all things in perspective.

I also would like to point out that in the Everglades NP they will "bust" you for catching or killing one of these invasive animals when they should offer a bounty instead. I can understand the wish to not let every wanna-be-herper out there tossing the place and taking or killing native animals, but a permit type system would relieve that issue to the point that benefits would greatly outweigh the environmental risk of leaving these animals there that are there doing damage, find a way to let us help. We are largely a responsible group of people that would like to set things right... plus it would be fun

Lance
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

Most of the animals on it only have a remote possibility of ever invading anywhere in the United states EXCEPT florida and possibly South Texas and considering I grew up in Alice Tx. and know how cold it gets there...a mere 110 miles or so north of Brownsville I have my doubts about South Texas. Java sparrows are from Malaysia and Thailand and Indonesia and yet they are considered an invasive. I grow fruit trees from this same region as a hobby and I can tell you it's not likely they would survive long even here in Fl. I have heard the walking catfish are still here although once again I don't see them spreading anywhere else. There are several other examples on the last that would not last anywhere else.Of course the real threat to the wildlife in fl. is not the invasive species but the out of control development going on here. In 50 yrs the fl. peninsula will look like hong kong and the only wildlife left here will be brown anoles, cuban treefrogs, roof rats, and cattle egrets none of which are an indigenous specie. But apparently there is more property tax money in condos and housing developments than there is in farms and woodlands and swamps so the politicians will give them all the go ahead. Bulldozers kill more burrowing owls and gopher tortoises in one week than nile monitors or pythons ever will but the fish and wild life does nothing about bulldozers.