Reptile & Amphibian Forums

After reviewing the actual proposal on the FWS I realized that the proposal does not read all species as some have suggested. Here is an exerp from the actual proposal on the FWS website...
"SUMMARY: We, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (Service or We), are reviewing available biological and economic information on constrictor snakes in the Python, Boa and Eunectes genera for possible addition to the list of injurious wildlife under the Lacey Act."

And...

"This notice of inquiry solicits biological, economic, or other data on adding species in the Python, Boa and Eunectes genera to the list of injurious wildlife."

Adding species... not the entire Genera.
The way I read this it seems that they are considering adding certain species in the Boa and Python family, not all. The original petition that was submitted was asking that Burms be added to the list and not all constrictors. Yet I have seen several websites listing notices that say a ban is being considered on ALL Boas and pythons.

I have reached out to the FWS asking for clarification and received the response below in which they confirmed that this is being considered for the giant species.

Email exchange Below

Hi Amad,
Thanks for your email. The Notice of Inquiry posted in the Proposed Rules section of the Federal Register, but it is not a proposed rule. It published there because it is connected to the Lacey Act, so all things related publish in that section.
As part of processing the petition we received to list Burmese pythons as injurious wildlife, we are trying to gather information about these snakes species and are most particularly interested in the larger, or "giant" species of snakes such as you mentioned. Also, since there may be some species in the genera that are not yet in the country, we would be interested in learning if any of those snakes could be potential problems
for wildlife and wildlife resources, if they were released into the wild.

Please feel free to contact me with any further questions. We are also trying to get the word out on the chat lists and such to clarify.

Sincerely,
Erin

Erin Williams
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service
Branch of Invasive Species
4401 North Fairfax Drive, Room 740B (MS730)
Arlington, VA 22203
Ph: 703-358-2034
Fax: 703-358-1800

OzzyBoids To erin_williams@fws.gov 02/05/2008 07:16 cc AM
Subject Proposed Ban Question

Hello Erin Williams,

I would like a little clarification regarding the proposed ban on Boa,Python, and Eunectes species. Is this proposal be considered for all species or specific giant species such as the Anaconda, Burmese, and Rock pythons? The reptile community of businesses and hobbyist seem to think that an all out ban is being considered, but I don't read the actual proposal that way. Can you clarify for me? I think this clarification is
necessary to allow an appropriate response to what is being proposed.

Thanks in Advance for your time.

Amad Osman
OzzyBoids
PO Box 396
Wind Gap, PA. 18091
301-524-0326
www.OzzyBoids.com
info@OzzyBoids.com
-----
OZZYBOIDS

I still think it is important for us fight for our rights as far as the Giants are being concerned, but we should understand exactly wahts being proposed so that we can respond appropriately. I don't think that boas and balls are at risk, but we still need to defend the rights of other herpers keeping teh Giants. I think it's reasonanble to want to prevent more large boids from establishing breeding groups in certain regions of the Country, but all out ban is overkill.

Hope this helps to keep us focused on the facts...

Thanks,
Oz
-----
OZZYBOIDS

lol you posted at the same time, minds think alike
-----
1.0 pastel ball python
0.1 mojave ball python
0.1 normal ball python
0.2 3-toed box turtles
2.3 eastern box turtles
0.0.5 3-striped mud turtle
1.0 northern diamondback terrapin
2.1 tiger salamander
1.1 red-sided garter
1.0 anerythristic red-sided garter
1.1 Iowa snow plains garter
1.1 Het butter stripe cornsnake
0.1 anerythristic motley cornsnake

If they were not interested in including all boas and pythons and condas they would have listed the species in general, which they did not. If they weren't going to list boas they would have just stated pythons and eunectes. It is my belief that they intend to do just what they stated "boas, pythons and eunectes". The USFW is being eliminated and by creating laws for them to enforce, they are trying to keep their jobs. The only area that these snakes can establish themselves is south florida and we have laws here to protect from any further introduction. This is a blatent attack at our freedoms and if anyone sits back and says "well they won't effect anything I keep" they are greatly mistaken. The same thing happened here in florida with the species of concern permits. Originally they gained enough complacency by stating that they would just require a simple permit and all of the listed species would have to be "chipped". Well now we must have evacuation plans, escape plans, transport plans, capture plans (including drugs and catch equipment, can you say hands, lol). They are also requiring inventory lists and updates quarterly if inventory changes. Give them an inch and they take a mile. We cannot let this law pass regardless if they change it to just say the large constrictors. What constitutes a large constrictor? One that gets over 6 ft? We never know what the final wording will be and that is why we must fight this NOW!!!
-----
Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons, boas, dogs, cats, fish, an amel tiger retic female, a couple sulcatas and a few other odds and ends.

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

>>I still think it is important for us fight for our rights as far as the Giants are being concerned, but we should understand exactly wahts being proposed so that we can respond appropriately. I don't think that boas and balls are at risk, but we still need to defend the rights of other herpers keeping teh Giants. I think it's reasonanble to want to prevent more large boids from establishing breeding groups in certain regions of the Country, but all out ban is overkill.
>>
>>Hope this helps to keep us focused on the facts...
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Oz
>>-----
>> OZZYBOIDS

Thanks for the up date OZ.

If this is the case we still need to stand united and stick by the Burm guys.

As someone that used to work for the Feds, I am not at all comfortable with the verbiage "Large", "Giant" and "such as" used in his response.

I still think this is our wake up call. It is time to put a stop to and reverse all the ridiculous restrictions placed on our community at every level of government.
-----
PIJAC Member

I hear you on "We still need to defend the rights of other herpers keeping and breeding the Giants".
If we don't and the bill get passed, then what next, they might go for ball pythons, monitors and ect., IMO.
-----
C-Rod Reptiles

Amad,
Very well read, thought out, and executed, now that's using your brain and doing your homework, rather than playing the "jump to conclusions game" and hyperventilating.
Kudos to you for clarifying.
However it might still be of concern to the whole, that "give an inch a mile could be taken"
Jeff
-----
1.0 pastel ball python
0.1 mojave ball python
0.1 normal ball python
0.2 3-toed box turtles
2.3 eastern box turtles
0.0.5 3-striped mud turtle
1.0 northern diamondback terrapin
2.1 tiger salamander
1.1 red-sided garter
1.0 anerythristic red-sided garter
1.1 Iowa snow plains garter
1.1 Het butter stripe cornsnake
0.1 anerythristic motley cornsnake

we do need to see what is going to be proposed. But we as reptile community have to take this as a warning and realize we can no longer just be a group of animal breeders. we as a community make up a large part of a multi billion dollar a year industry. And that it is time to start setting up a system that will protects us as a whole. There are many groups out there who want to see us gone and they have the money and power to have lobbyist fight for them. Now its is our time to do the same. The gov't knows the dog and cat industry is to Strong to pull this with but the unorganized reptile breeder are not. The truth is a bunch of letters saying I love my snakes I want to sell my snakes and keep my snakes is a good start but it is just a small step that can easily be shot down. we cannot feel if we back down they will only take a inch because we all know they will take a mile.

this is just my 2 cents
I truly feel we need 2 be heard and we need a powerful group or person to do our talking
Jon
-----
Albinos Unlimited home of the Jester ball.
www.myspace.com/albinosunlimited
PIJAC member

Read the actual notice of inquiry from the FWS.

Oz
LINK TO FWS NOTICE

-----
OZZYBOIDS

.

If they bother to mention the Genus they they leave the door open to add other species later.

Maybe right now the intentions are genuinely good and only a species specific, if an inch is given, what happens when PETA and ect. sees the door a crack and shoves their giant foot up "ours"? Sometimes compromise can be a good solution to a problem...BUT
Here is a real life example:
In a relatively fairly large city where I grew up and is close (20 miles) from where i currently live, quite a few years ago "they" (the city government council) decided it would be a good idea to ban large and dangerous constrictors from being sold or posessed in the city limits for everyones safely, after one got loose and made the news, a very small minority of owners opposed it, so it passed. A few years later "they" decided to ban all constrictors, that too passed. So all you would see in the pet shops was garter and ribbon snakes the past few years, more like many years actually. So keepers either moved out into the country or went underground (made to feel and operate like they have drugs in there homes or drug dealers). Recently one of the pet store owners said that as of this year even garters are on the city banned list, so they will no longer be offered for sale. Wouldn't want anyone getting killed by a garter. While I have not confirmed if that is official, either way you won't even see a garter or ribbon snake for sale anymore at the biggest pet shop in town, this is a real example of 1 inch growing. I think at a local level sometimes these things pass before anyone really knows about it and then it's too late. So fill out the official form, I did, and I'm not a big breeder, I'm a nobody, and I don't even keep Burms although I have in the past, but I like my snakes and I want to keep them, voice your oppinion in a tactful non-attacking way while you have the chance before it's too late, because otherwise then you just have to live with what others decided for you.
Jeff
-----
1.0 pastel ball python
0.1 mojave ball python
0.1 normal ball python
0.2 3-toed box turtles
2.3 eastern box turtles
0.0.5 3-striped mud turtle
1.0 northern diamondback terrapin
2.1 tiger salamander
1.1 red-sided garter
1.0 anerythristic red-sided garter
1.1 Iowa snow plains garter
1.1 Het butter stripe cornsnake
0.1 anerythristic motley cornsnake

You know I am very sorry and hope noone gets mad at me but If that is the case I would have to somewhat agree. Maybe an all out ban is a little over the top but I do beleave in some sort of regulation for "GIANT" constrictors. Sorry but I am an honest person
Foot Hill Reptiles

Maybe right now the intentions are genuinely good and only a species specific, if an inch is given, what happens when PETA and ect. sees the door a crack and shoves their giant foot up "ours"? Sometimes compromise can be a good solution to a problem...BUT
Here is a real life example:
In a relatively fairly large city where I grew up and is close (20 miles) from where i currently live, quite a few years ago "they" (the city government council) decided it would be a good idea to ban large and dangerous constrictors from being sold or posessed in the city limits for everyones safely, after one got loose and made the news, a very small minority of owners opposed it, so it passed. A few years later "they" decided to ban all constrictors, that too passed. So all you would see in the pet shops was garter and ribbon snakes the past few years, more like many years actually. So keepers either moved out into the country or went underground (made to feel and operate like they have drugs in there homes or drug dealers). Recently one of the pet store owners said that as of this year even garters are on the city banned list, so they will no longer be offered for sale. Wouldn't want anyone getting killed by a garter. While I have not confirmed if that is official, either way you won't even see a garter or ribbon snake for sale anymore at the biggest pet shop in town, this is a real example of 1 inch growing. I think at a local level sometimes these things pass before anyone really knows about it and then it's too late. So fill out the official form, I did, and I'm not a big breeder, I'm a nobody, and I don't even keep Burms although I have in the past, but I like my snakes and I want to keep them, voice your oppinion in a tactful non-attacking way while you have the chance before it's too late, because otherwise then you just have to live with what others decided for you.
Jeff
-----
-----
1.0 pastel ball python
0.1 mojave ball python
0.1 normal ball python
0.2 3-toed box turtles
2.3 eastern box turtles
0.0.5 3-striped mud turtle
1.0 northern diamondback terrapin
2.1 tiger salamander
1.1 red-sided garter
1.0 anerythristic red-sided garter
1.1 Iowa snow plains garter
1.1 Het butter stripe cornsnake
0.1 anerythristic motley cornsnake

Wonder how the dwarf and super dwarf versions would be affected...Would be a shame for anyones rights to be taken away(Especially seeing as how they cannot survive in most areas of the US anyway),but to lump the dwarfs in with the "giants" just because they share the same latin names would be inaccurate as well.

...just thinking out loud.
-----
Charles Glaspie

Wow, thanks for the clarification on that... That is a relief...

They do not officially state any species specifically but they do mention the genera. If you think you can sit back and now the precious ball python is not at risk you are greatly mistaken. Any federal regulation to fix a problem here in south florida is over-board considering we have laws in place to prevent any more animals from being released. Write everyone you can, let them know that this law in any form is unacceptable. Here is a scenerio for you::

Secretary A for congressman B is typing up the bill to be sent to the floor for vote. Secretary A hates snakes and loves this law. She isn't quite sure what Eunectes is and it keeps comming up on spell check as wrong but wants to make sure she doesn't miss something important so she just adds the word snake and whoops every snake is banned from inter-state commerce.

Yes this is extreme, but I bet it has happened in the past. I've noticed a complacency on the phone and on the forums and we cannot as a community allow this to procede with any restrictions placed by the federal government.
-----
Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons, boas, dogs, cats, fish, an amel tiger retic female, a couple sulcatas and a few other odds and ends.

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

It really doesn't matter to me, slipery slope me friend. When will we tell them we have had enough of garbage?

Oh wow! Thanks for that clarification. I understand that if we don't fight for our giant breeds then its usually just a matter of time before they come after the other constrictors. Thanks all!
-----
Jason Little Pythons