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I was traded what is stated to be closest to being a near pure Albino Pueblan a while back. i was curious as to what a 98% pure albino male pueblan might be worth, as i never see them for sale.

thanks in advance,

matthew watkins

That just depends on who you ask. What is the other supposed 2%? To some folks, it would be worth nothing - to others, it would be worth whatever they'd pay for a pueblan X nelsoni or pueblan X ruthveni (or whatever the other genetic contributer is). Maybe $75-100 to the right person.

-Cole

the other 2% is ruthveni.

I just did some quick calculations and to get a 98% pure Pueblan.... it would take a minimum of 12 generations of various (Pueblan X Ruthveni)...so that's like 24 years at the absolute minimum...right????

Pueblan X Amel Ruthveni = 50% Pueblans het Amel.
that offspring = 50% Pueblans Amels
that offspring back to 100% Pueblan = 75% Pueblans het Amel.

and on, and on, and on....for another 10 generations.

Thomas I would seriously question that information...

-Rusty

Good point, Rusty. As I read the orginal post, I was working the math through in my head and questioning the liklihood that it was in fact 98% peublan.

To answer the original question, it would be worth very little to me, but that's just my own taste. There are a lot of people out there that like hybrids, so who knows what its worth to them! Post it on the hybrid forum and see what they say.

Dave
DNS Reptiles

Funny you mentioned that, I thought the very same thing when I read the post too. And by looking at the animal, I can see a LOT of ruthveni influence(at least 50%). After all, that's ONLY a 48% difference, right!..LOL!.

Some of these crossed animals "look" nice, but they usually just wind up causing a 100% distruction rate in other collections(maybe 98% would be more accurate..LOL!) a fact that many just don't seem to understand. This only proves yet AGAIN to be another animal that was "HONESTLY" represented by the seller/breeder!..LOL!

I say this not to badger, or disrespect the original poster, but to prove ONCE AGAIN that this is what INEVITABLY happens, and will continue to happen, only in a MUCH greater scale in the future.

~Doug

~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

the seller represented it "98%" truthfully by disclosing it as a hybrid. he lied about the percentage. apart from your belief structure hybrids are not going to cause a nuclear melt down.
most breeders today honestly label their hybrids as hybrids do to the fact that they can and do sell faster(not always) and can (but dont always) catch a higher premium. the ugly ones do get sold cheaper but are normally snatched up quickly because the buyer knows that they have the potential to throw really nice babies.
are hybrids good no one will ever know, will they ever cause an entire project to go up in flames probally not, they will probally make the project worth more.
ha ha
adam
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" a.k.a. farfrumugen "
hybrid breeders association
1.1 puebladurans
1.1 sinacorns
1.1 hypo corns
1.1 kenyan sand boas
1.1 mbk
1.1 albino corns
1.1 childrens python
1.2 ghost corns
2.2 butter(both females motley)
2.2 pyroxgreerixruthvenixalternaxcampbellixholbrooki
0.1 hypo pyroxgreerixruthvenixalternaxcampbellixholbrooki
1.0 snow corns
1.0 jurassic milk
1.0 house snake
1.0 crimson corns
0.2 albino pueblacorns
0.1 striped ghosts
0.1 anery pueblacorn
0.1 bloodred
0.1 striped albino corn
0.1 albino nelsons
0.1 anery motley
0.1 normal corn het hypo,anery
0.1 hypo tang hondo
0.1 rosy boa

No,.....no resting about this on my end. What will you guys do when there's NO pure snakes to hybridize?..LOL!!...what will you call them?..........the "I donno" snake? anyone that has basic common sense can see what can(and does) happen. I like to KNOW what I am working with, not guess. Blow the smoke in another direction, not towards me, I know better, and you know I do.

It's like looking at the single dots that comprise a painting from only an inch away, you have to take a few steps back to see the complete picture. People that randomly hybridize, DO NOT see the whole picture, they just want to make cool "looking"
dots, regardless.

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Could not have said it better myself Doug!
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Genesis 1:1

doug you know me and i know you. you should know better that "i" dont hybridize randomly. i selectively choose what i buy and what i want to breed what with. are their people that are just randomly creating hybrids? yes, lots. i dont have to like it either but I know what i buy and those that want pure should know what they are looking at as well. and the breeder should always make every attempt to honestly represent their stock.
i just want to know why everybody thinks that its just the hybrid people that are dishonest? you dont think that their are just as many people out their claiming their snakes are from a differant local just because they dont know what local they even have! or people that sell hets that they know are het for nothing! every hybrid person on these boards is honest! you know how i know because we are on here talking about them. if we were dishonest we would keep are mouths shut. in todays day and age hybrids are gaining more value and most other pure snakes are reducing in value. so their is no reason to misrepresent them. (their was never any reason too but obviosly it happened)
me and you have talked on the phone and in person about this and we both know we will never change each others minds but i like busting your royal pythons!
do i want to make just a cool looking snake yup! cuz thats what i like about snakes is that they look cool. but that does not mean im not knowledgable or that i dont know what im talking about. do you know more, yup because your old er than me and have 30 years of learning beyond me. but just because i like hybrids does not make me stupid, makes my spelling suck but other than that it just means i think outside the hide box not trapped in it.
adam
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" a.k.a. farfrumugen "
hybrid breeders association
1.1 puebladurans
1.1 sinacorns
1.1 hypo corns
1.1 kenyan sand boas
1.1 mbk
1.1 albino corns
1.1 childrens python
1.2 ghost corns
2.2 butter(both females motley)
2.2 pyroxgreerixruthvenixalternaxcampbellixholbrooki
0.1 hypo pyroxgreerixruthvenixalternaxcampbellixholbrooki
1.0 snow corns
1.0 jurassic milk
1.0 house snake
1.0 crimson corns
0.2 albino pueblacorns
0.1 striped ghosts
0.1 anery pueblacorn
0.1 bloodred
0.1 striped albino corn
0.1 albino nelsons
0.1 anery motley
0.1 normal corn het hypo,anery
0.1 hypo tang hondo
0.1 rosy boa

Adam, the entire hobby that is into the "Honduran" morphs that are actually various mixes of polyzona X stuarti X hondurensis is exactly the best example of what Doug is talking about. When is the last time you saw either a pure Sinaloan or Nelsons?

Granted, the snake was called exactly what it is.........some sort of manmade cross....two forms that would never even meet in the wild. And this owner was identifying it as such. The problem is that others may try and pass it off for what it appears mostly to be.

Again, look at some of the "Honduran" morphs. You can pick some out that are phenotypic polyzona, some that are phenotypic stuarti, etc. Yet the owners/breeders are quick to call them "Hondurans" instead of mutts.

What ever happened to the days when you could actually get a pure Latin American milksnake subspecies? Doug is right. At some point all you'll need to do as far as labelling your hatchlings at expos is just put the word "SNAKE" on the deli cup.

Scott

am i kidding? no. me and doug are friends and each feel strongly about the other sides of the fence. we do get carried away at times (usually me) but thats because i come into the non hybrid forums and try and defend my choices (but dont need too).

i do agree in the fact that hybrids could cause some damage if snakes get into the wrong hands and get passed on along without a proper id.
but in the same regards its not going to ruin the hobby or anyones projects.
look at the hondurans is anyone slowing down because some one questions where its genes came from! NO ! NOWAY !everyone who breeds hondurans is still breeding away and they just dont think about it anymore. it would be that way with any breed.creamsicles are accepted, hondurans are accepted,sinaloan/nelsoni are accepted the only hybrids that are not accepted are the ones labeled HYBRID. the ones we all know and love that are hybrids/integrades are just accepted, but anyting else is just obseard for now. next year will be differant and the year after that so on and so forth.
adam jeffery
-----
" a.k.a. farfrumugen "
hybrid breeders association
1.1 puebladurans
1.1 sinacorns
1.1 hypo corns
1.1 kenyan sand boas
1.1 mbk
1.1 albino corns
1.1 childrens python
1.2 ghost corns
2.2 butter(both females motley)
2.2 pyroxgreerixruthvenixalternaxcampbellixholbrooki
0.1 hypo pyroxgreerixruthvenixalternaxcampbellixholbrooki
1.0 snow corns
1.0 jurassic milk
1.0 house snake
1.0 crimson corns
0.2 albino pueblacorns
0.1 striped ghosts
0.1 anery pueblacorn
0.1 bloodred
0.1 striped albino corn
0.1 albino nelsons
0.1 anery motley
0.1 normal corn het hypo,anery
0.1 hypo tang hondo
0.1 rosy boa

I feel the same way doug. Not only with a pueblan but any time I hear albino gray band or thayeri someone is about to push my jackass button. On not totally against hybrids but when its done to make a morph out of something that's not out then it brings up alot of questions and disbelief when the true morph does show up. I dont care how honest the original guy is but we know how people are when money is involved.

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i'm not over weight i'm under tall

I'm glad to see that there are still some folks like you that can see through the all the nonesense. That animal could have(and still could) easily just as well ended up in someones Pueblan project. This apparently doesn't matter at all to some, but regardless of that, the pure campbelli bloodline comes to an immediate end as far as that line is concerned.

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

>> Some of these crossed animals "look" nice, but they usually just wind up causing a 100% distruction rate in other collections(maybe 98% would be more accurate..LOL!) a fact that many just don't seem to understand. This only proves yet AGAIN to be another animal that was "HONESTLY" represented by the seller/breeder!..LOL!
>>
>> I say this not to badger, or disrespect the original poster, but to prove ONCE AGAIN that this is what INEVITABLY happens, and will continue to happen, only in a MUCH greater scale in the future.

I don't think hybrids should be banned. I just think the more responsible position for people who care about herpetoculture generally is to not do it. And I agree some of them can be very beautiful.

Those personal feelings aside, I think your position's inarguable, if we define "destruction rate" to mean the rate at which our captive breeding populations can no longer be considered "pure" to a given species. Surely that's a bad thing?

Ten years from now, five years from now, maybe today, "pure" will be a term with legitimacy only to a tiny handful who have worked with animals obtained several decades ago, without ever introducing anything acquired from an expo or pet store or local breeder without portfolio. We'll go from feeling the need to specify and acknowledge that an animal has this-or-that percentage of something else, to that being the norm and feeling the need to be specific about an animal's genetic content only in those rare instances where it's "the real thing". And i think that's sad.

Plus, some of those animals are going to be released--accidentally or intentionally--into the wild, sometimes in areas where the "pure" species exists. So that wild population will be--forever--tainted. The significance of field work will be greatly reduced...may in fact have already been diminished to a state of insignificance for some purposes.

imho

terry

That's right Dell, I know that there are many of us that feel the same way about this, and it is the ONLY reason there will still be a few specific types that remain in years to come.

I don't see what is so hard to understand about this. It's like taking an original Lamborghini sports car, and slapping on some Chevrolet parts, then telling a collector that the car is much more desirable now with the Chevy add-ons..LOL!!!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I agree - hence the "supposed" 2% in my post. I doubt the validity of the genetic percentages.

-Cole

Thank you for letting me know this.
the seller (if i could mention his name, but not sure if that is allowed here) seems to have screwed me royally in a trade i did with him. he misrepresnted several items, and yes, did in fact say that it was 98% pure (which i now know it not to be).
i do still have the e:mails in which he claimed this animal to be something special.
it really pisses me off, but the trade deal was done last October or so, and now what can i do?
i would never refer "said" seller to anyone now, and if it wasn't so long ago, would take this all to the BOI.

I don't have time to reply to everyone's response here as of the time being, but i do thank you all immensely for clearing this up for me. i have NO intentions of selling this animal as what it was represented to me as. i am going to keep him and breed him for a while to some pueblan females i have.

This really is a shame though that someone would screw you in a deal in such a way just to make a little cash, as this guy obviously did me.

Thanks all!

sincerely,

matthew watkins

i must say that hybrids what ever percent are only worth what the buyer is willing to pay. AT LEAST THE SELLER TOLD YOU THAT ITS NOT PURE. BUT HE ID HAVE TO GUESS AT THE PERCENTAGE OR FLAT OUT LIE
but to the "98% pure" no way its either hybrid or not i dont believe in percentages when it comes to hybrids that are not first generation. for example:
corn x rat = 50/50 this is true because no matter what 50 % of each parent must contribute to that snake.
now you breed 2 siblings together 50/50 x 50/50 = 50/50 right yes and no. each parent provides 50% of its genetics to the siblings but when one or both parents have mixed blood their is no way to know where that 50% is going to come from! it could pass on 25%rat and 25%corn or 37.65% corn and 12.35%rat no way to know.
p.s. this is not aimed at you its just a venue to rant and rave.
adam
-----
" a.k.a. farfrumugen "
hybrid breeders association
1.1 puebladurans
1.1 sinacorns
1.1 hypo corns
1.1 kenyan sand boas
1.1 mbk
1.1 albino corns
1.1 childrens python
1.2 ghost corns
2.2 butter(both females motley)
2.2 pyroxgreerixruthvenixalternaxcampbellixholbrooki
0.1 hypo pyroxgreerixruthvenixalternaxcampbellixholbrooki
1.0 snow corns
1.0 jurassic milk
1.0 house snake
1.0 crimson corns
0.2 albino pueblacorns
0.1 striped ghosts
0.1 anery pueblacorn
0.1 bloodred
0.1 striped albino corn
0.1 albino nelsons
0.1 anery motley
0.1 normal corn het hypo,anery
0.1 hypo tang hondo
0.1 rosy boa

for what it is...it's a nice looking snake!

-Rusty

Before the thread runs completely off the rails, the snake in the pic is an albino ruthveni. I just don't see a speck of campbelli on the animal.
I'd go back to the seller and request pics of the parents and a couple sibs if possible. The seller may have misidentified the parents.
Good specimen to put on the hybrid forum and ask if anyone has bred ruthveni to campbelli and what those offspring looked like.
Jeff

Jeff, there is only 17 rbr's so no way is it even close to pure ruthveni.They are 23-34 so the low # would come from campbelli.They usually keep the ruthveni head for several generations.

either way its still a mutt.pretty but a mutt.

L8r Shannon

prolly shoulda counted the bands at least - doh!

Here's what's supposed to be a pure albino pueblan with a possible het. I got these from Shannon a few years ago.