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Sold Our Last Ball Python...

Sijae Feb 08, 2008 03:01 AM

...and I say goodbye, and good riddance.

This used to be fun.

We used to meet nice people.

There was camaraderie and respect.

We diligently cared for our animals and strived to build good will amongst our customers and the reptile community in general.

It all went down the crapper in the last few years. Especially in our home state. Liars, thieves, backstabbers, a lot seem to gravitate towards animals, a control issue I suspect. The animals became secondary, it became all about the ego.

This junk has been going nationally for years and, I, like many of you, have been duped by those at the top of the pyramid. I watched transactions take place at half of "market value" amongst some of the well known businesses. I'm sure that everyone is aware of the farming in Africa, right? A lot of those farmed animals are visuals. You'll never hear that from them. How about the practice of culling normal males in wild populations and reseeding them with co-dom males? What do you think happens to the normal males? Anyone ever get a thousand lot of imports? How many were DOA? How many made it passed first or second shed? We once bought fifty right out of the crate and lost three. Less then ten percent. The guy we got them from was amazed. He counted on twenty percent loss out of a thousand lot. All this garbage was in search of "The Next Big Thing". I don't think this has anything to do with being an animal lover. It's all about the green.

Another tie in is the personality cults that certain individuals nurture and perpetuate. If you've been around for any length of time you know who they are. They are not your buddies, they are businessmen. Anyone who has taken a business class knows the answer to this question: "Why do businesses exist?". The answer, for those lucky enough to have avoided business classes, is simple: "to make a profit".

We've been lucky. We dealt directly with very few scum bags and always had great customers. With the animal that arrived this morning on the east coast, we also had 100% success with shipping. Despite the best efforts of Delta. I think we even came out ahead financially over the years, but I'm not going to put the numbers together because frankly it makes no difference any more.

I know people that got burned, burned to the point of ruining their credit and putting their house in jeopardy. Meanwhile, the "big breeders" were busy breeding the same animals in quantity and selling them cheap to other insiders who then did the same thing. Then that great animal from (Insert breeder name here) ain't worth squat. I don't see anyone starting a fund to help out the poor folks that invested five figures in a dominant dead-end morph and then got annihilated on price the next year.

As far as the proposed federal regulations... well you reap what you sow.

Those little green anacondas look pretty cute in the store. So does that baby albino burm. Not so cute when they get big and unmanageable. I've worked around retail. It's cutthroat and so you have basically the blind leading the blind when it comes to sales. You can't get a true salesman for minimum wage. I rarely saw customers qualified before the sale. If you're a professional salesman you know what I mean.

In most of the country these animals wouldn't make it though the winter, much less propagate. Thank the pet trade in the warm south for this one.

On a personal note, we have some of the stupidest animal regulations on record in my small city. The Uncle Miltons Ant Farm you bought your kid for Christmas will be filled with what are technically considered exotics as soon as your little bottle comes in the mail and you add the ants. I asked for help from the local community for support when I got "busted". Two people helped me out by writing letters. One was my local vet that we take the dogs and cats to, and the other was Dr.Roger Klingenberg, the renowned herp. vet who we always went to for snake issues. No one else stepped up. Ever. It "wasn't their problem".

Read the article linked at the bottom of the page. It's a far more serious subject, but the ideas are the same. How many reptile people would be upset if the proposed regulations had to do with guinea pigs?

Someone "told on" us last week. It's not fun being awakened at 11PM by a cop who wants to look around your house for snakes and rats that are a "threat to our children'. It's really no fun when you tell them you are declining their request because they do not have a warrant and then they threaten to call social services and say that s.s. will get a warrant and that they will take our children. We haven't bred rats in several years and we had two adult and two yearling animals left. So the tattle tale did not do their homework. I have a suspicion it was not someone from the local reptile "community". However, I know people that have done this very thing to others, and although we've remained very low-profile for the past year and a half or so, I wouldn't put it past anyone.

In regards to the previous paragraph; we had already sold or given away most of our ball pythons and had planned to do so for some time. I'm not writing this post because I am bitter only about this recent incident. Am I p.o.'d about it? You bet, but most of my writing is based on our experience over the years and since our involvement is no more, I finally feel free to write about the garbage that I have witnessed.

By the way, out of those four remaining bp's, I gave 1.2 away to a kid I know, the male we paid $3,500 cash for a few years ago and the females were yearlings. During our house cleaning I gave away a Mojave, all our baby normals, and I gave the female that started it all for us to someone I trust will take good care of her. I also gave away thousands of dollars worth of equipment to various good folks I know. Does that make me a hero or inflate my ego? No, I just wanted to give back something to former customers and people I trust.

Just a thought... there was a time in my life, many years ago, when I dealt with a bunch of less-then-savory characters involved in victimless illegal activity. Even amongst their ranks there was a code of ethics. You may have heard the term "honor among thieves". In the case of the reptile community I don't believe such a thing exists. It's every man for himself, even if it means taking down someone else to get ahead.

I guess that's it. I'd love to name names and call out some people out on their insidious behavior. Considering the level of my trust of other people right now and knowing how much a bruised ego can hurt, I don't need some vindictive jerk causing me any trouble.

So long, and thanks for all the fish!

Read This and Think About It

Replies (25)

snakeman333 Feb 08, 2008 06:50 AM

I am so sorry it came to this. Its a shame that people at the top don't realize that their actions impact the industry that they make their living off of.

I have been in the industry for only 6 years but invested about $30,000 into my animals in the first year. Once in the industry for 2 years I realized what you have recently and sold all of my snakes for a loss. I was swindled by many dealers in the first year and was taken advantage of in numerous transaction not from small breeders but from the breeders considered the top dogs. I truly thought I could trust these people.

Purchased animals for $7,000 and found out from friends that the same breeders had sold the same morph from the same clutch for 3,000 to her two weeks later.

This is a volatile market with no regulations to control it. That is a dangerous combination for the.

I learned my lesson!

Something to think of when deciding to invest in ball pythons is that no matter what anyone says to you it is not as easy to sell your snakes as you think. It took me 3 years to sell 100 snakes. At first I tried to stay close to the market price at shows all over the Midwest and East. I made about $28,000 back from my investment including all offspring produced in that time.

Good luck!

tibor Feb 08, 2008 09:56 AM

thats disturbing to read...but it happens I'm sure.
a hobby gone wrong.
Heres hoping for a better day for you.
thanks for sharing

rvareptiles Feb 08, 2008 10:55 AM

A breeder to breeder market can only last so long before it starts to look like a pyramid scheme...

Eventually you need some end consumers, customers that buy the product for what it is without the prospect of any "investment" quality returns.

If you paid 5 figures for snakes that the other 99% of people who like them would only be willing to pay $300 for, then YOU were the one that didn't do your research. Rather than talking to the breeders you "trusted," you should have been talking to potential customers, guaged how much those animals were worth to YOU, and made an offer.

The future of the ball python market is in producing a quantity of great looking animals that are affordable for the average reptile hobbyist. We're certainly on that track. Pastels are flying off the shelves at pet stores when listed at $100. Not everyone is willing to have a room full of FB racks and a rodent colony in their garage...the number of people willing to operate at that scale has not been enough to sustain the high prices that got a lot of people interested in ball pythons to begin with.

I'm not trying to make this into a "ball pythons are too expensive" hater post, I'm just saying that the price drops are proof that there aren't enough willing buyers at those price points...

VictorOToole Feb 08, 2008 12:41 PM

Wait a minute, You can't leave yet, I haven't had a chance to prove out the het clowns I bought from you several years ago.

Heat Feb 08, 2008 12:51 PM

What state are you in? Just wondering about CPS & the local laws. Not right.
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www.heatsherps.com

bhb Feb 08, 2008 01:24 PM

What?????????? Now that's some wild stuff there????? Brian(BHB)

evansnakes Feb 08, 2008 01:45 PM

You make many valid points and much of what you are saying is common knowledge and true.

People keep giving their money to the people you are talking about. People keep kissing ass hoping they will get better treatment based on what they spend but unless you are very wealthy you will never be the big spender and will get promises that never come to be. And as soon as you start producing and selling the animals you bought you are now seen as competition and an enemy to those you spent your money with.

Nobody ever wants to name names. The same people get away with the bad things they do over and over again because nobody wants to load up and go to war. So many people in this business are so infamous for things they have done and yet they are still allowed to sell on sites on the net and at shows. If this industry had any respect for itself at all people who have been stealing and cheating customers for 30 years would be banned from everything not welcomed in.

Those who sell animals that are not what they are supposed to be or sell animals they know are sick are still at the shows and selling on the websites. Why? Why is this business so bad at policing itself? Well you can attribute all the legal actions against us to the same problems. We do not police ourselves and we do not have any unity in our group.

I have personally fought laws against reptiles in several cities and states for years. I had to fight the city I lived in going after me for the same kind of narc situation you spoke of. What I learned then was that my "good friends" in the business that were local that I had known for many years would not do one thing, not lift one finger to help me out in or out of court but wanted me "to let them know how it goes". I was on my own. And I fought. And I won. But after many fights I am tired and not willing to do it alone any longer and that is the rub. Where is the organisation and the willingness in this business to stand up to these laws? Where are the dozen or so people who make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year from these snakes and what are they doing to defend the industry right now?

pitoon Feb 08, 2008 04:39 PM

lets see what happens to those top breeders if certain laws get passed.................people and i mean a lot of people will be out of jobs!!!!

Wallbanger26 Feb 08, 2008 04:58 PM

Everyone keeps stating that we need to have some unity, well take the initiative!!! It's easy to say what we need to do, but no one is doing it. If you're not going to start this "organization", quit b!tch!ng!

As far as "big breeders" go, I've had good and bad experiences. I've had promises made that weren't kept. I've also had great experiences, which is why I'll go back to them when I want something more. Nothing is perfect. I went into this thinking it would be a self-sustaining hobby like I was told. WRONG. I'm down about $35,000, so what. And no I'm not rich. I have $30 to my name, literally! I produced 2 spider males and 1 cinny male last year and couldn't find anyone to buy them. I traded them instead. I do this because it's fun, and quite frankly I love it. If I ever make my money back, great. If not, oh well. Anyone who goes into anything financial and thinks they're going to make millions, ask yourself one very simple question, "If it's that easy, why isn't everyone doing it?"

snakeman333 Feb 08, 2008 10:47 PM

Go and read your post again. Sounds like your more bitter than me.

Just an observation.

Wallbanger26 Feb 09, 2008 10:00 AM

I'm not bitter at all. I made ill advised, uneducated decisions. I know better now. I will make my money back and then some. It's just about quantity for me now as far as selling and quality as far as my personal collection. Knowledge is the key.

i95east Feb 08, 2008 05:02 PM

sorry you're so bummed, but my experience has been quite different. i've met lots of people i like, track the acomplishments of many others from afar, and in general, have enjoyed it all. i've paid for hundreds of snakes in advance, always ship first on trades, and can count my disapointments on one hand. i paid top dollar for lots of things, it all worked out as soon as i started hatching babies. fish and game sticks their head in every now and then, no problem there. i like my snakes, and i like the business, especially the competitive aspects. i think it's all about choices, what you choose to buy, and who you choose to deal with. i wish you well on your next endeavor. peace. kurt d.

Coldthumb Feb 09, 2008 09:34 AM

>>sorry you're so bummed, but my experience has been quite different. i've met lots of people i like, track the acomplishments of many others from afar, and in general, have enjoyed it all. i've paid for hundreds of snakes in advance, always ship first on trades, and can count my disapointments on one hand. i paid top dollar for lots of things, it all worked out as soon as i started hatching babies. fish and game sticks their head in every now and then, no problem there. i like my snakes, and i like the business, especially the competitive aspects. i think it's all about choices, what you choose to buy, and who you choose to deal with. i wish you well on your next endeavor. peace. kurt d.

Kurt has a point here...Anything can go south with enough bad decisions...and i've overpaid for a few things,but as long as the eggs were hatching it all leveled off for me.(With a very small group of animals at that.)

I still get excited when i get some eggs,or when they start pipping(that is if can let them,without grabbing the scissors lol),whether they are pastels,or whatever...

On a side note..It seems ironic how the op had a problem with those that crapped on the market..yet,did it themeselves..and then made a post about.(but only after they were done doing it.)...wth?
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Charles Glaspie

jyohe Feb 08, 2008 05:27 PM

I hear Ya........

.I tried to get out before the ball thing started......after 3 years I went back in more instead....

.I am not in debt at all.....

.I agree on the clubs and egos........LOL..

I smiled.......

........don't look back......breed rabbits or guinea pigs and eat them.......

.....good luck......
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mykee Feb 08, 2008 06:19 PM

I'm sorry to hear you feel so strongly about your convictions that it has driven you out of the hobby, err...business?
I agree with you 100% in that the greedier you are the more successful you are, just look at whose on top!
It's unfortunate that these businessmen have ruined the reptile trade and hobby.
Just like anyhwere there's money to be made, there are those who are right on the heels to exploit the hell out of it.
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www.strictlyballs.ca

toshamc Feb 08, 2008 07:21 PM

I wish I could disagree with you - but you speak the truth. I am very sorry about what you and your family had to go through and I wish you the best of luck in your future endeavors.

Don't look back!
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Tosha
JET Pythons

jonf Feb 08, 2008 11:27 PM

.....in this post, I'm sorry to say is money. A wise man (my father) once told me, do not go into a profession that is also your hobby. You will eventually lose your passion for the hobby and other bad things will happen.

On a related note, go back to and listen to some past episodes of Reptile Radio. The most recent one on it had Will Bird as a guest. He keeps and produces hundreds of snakes. You could hear the genuineness in his voice as he talked about his snakes. Not once in the hour episode, did he mention the almighty dollar or what a snake was "worth". I've never met the man personally but I have a feeling that money rarely interferes with his decisions involving snakes.

The point being, (and I'm not accusing the poster here), is that a lot of people "got into" ball pythons as soon as they started having commas in the price tags. The good thing about these people is that they never had the passion in the first place so at least that was never lost when their business when south, just their money.
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Jon F

Wallbanger26 Feb 09, 2008 10:02 AM

Nicely stated.

holdemwhat Feb 09, 2008 09:27 AM

While much of what you say may be true, I'm not sure I understand. The reason you sold and gave away your snakes is because you don't like what some breeders do?

I fail to make the connection between keeping / enjoying your snakes and the actions of others...

Although what others do can be annoying, (which will happen in every aspect of life) there is nothing they can do to make me stop keeping my snakes.

-Steve

DZBReptiles Feb 10, 2008 11:46 AM

from your experience. Now there is one less guy I have to compete with. Good-bye and good ridence, because honestly I think your whole post is a crock of what your full of. As some one already stated, if the actions of others or the market price of any particular animal makes you quit a hobby or bussiness, then you shouldn't have been here in the first place. If you made bad deals and poor decisions who's fault is that? Bo frickedy hoo! If you thought you would get rich your first year in business then you where nieve or stupid. Snakeman up above posted that off of a 30,000 dollar investment he recooped 28,000 in the first 3 years and was so upset that he got out. Get real! If a guy that opens a resturant or other retail business and recovers 93% of his total investment in that time I think he would be kissing his own ass allll daayyy looong and night too. I know I would. If you think that any one persons or group of people ruined the market then I think you should take a long look in the mirror before spouting off your dribble. The reptile hobby/trade/industry was around long before the BP craze and it will be long after we're dead and gone. Infact I only see it getting bigger and better. And please, a ban on interstate transportation, hell the goverment can't even stop illegal drug trafficing from less then 1% of the population let alone all the people that are shipping and transporting reptiles. So as everyone has already stated "gee I'm so sorry for your bad experience", but hey thanks for stopping by. You have contributed so much to the hobby and will surely be missed. Not!

Jeff

P.S. My sincere appologies to anyone who maybe offended by my tone of my post or opinion, but last time I checked ther was no proposed ban on those!!!!

magicalmorphs Feb 10, 2008 08:00 PM

There are so many things you touched on that I want to comment about, but dont have the time to spend on all of them. I sympethize with some of the situations you mentioned, but the bulk of your statment can be found in ANY BUSINESS!!!!! Try working retail for 16 years and you'll realize very fast that there are alot of people that would like nothing better than to screw you over. Then theres the people that are honest, courteous and just great people. And as far as the "BIG DOGS" they are the ones that have been around for years and know this business. Thats how they became the big dogs. If they were screwing EVERYONE over then they wouldn't be at the top for very long. I'm sure they don't have the time to give personal service and make everyone feel warm and fuzzy inside when they sell them a snake, but thats to the little guys advantage. I don't know your whole situation, but it sounds like YOU were in it just for the money and had unrealistic expectations. I've spent $5000.00 on snakes that I may never make a penny on........I'm O.K. with that. I know thats a very small ammount compared to most, but I'm not in this for the money. I'll grow my collection slow and steady....and if I break even or make a buck thats a bonus. I still want one of every morph your just one less person I have a choice of buying from.

magicalmorphs Feb 10, 2008 08:25 PM

make an honest descent living selling corn snakes it can be done with ball pythons. It would take careful planning, lots of research, good decision making and an undying love for the reptiles.

bigcountry1 Feb 11, 2008 08:43 AM

I read the link, and it sounds like you are not practicing what you preach.

if all of these big breeders are so bad, then SPEAK up so that the rest of us can take heed.
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The New Redpython.net

timbuktu Feb 11, 2008 10:33 AM

I am new here and to reptiles but I have seen the same story in just about every hobby/business. If people screwed you no doubt then name their names so the rest of us don't get screwed. If you cant get up the bollocks to do that then don't gripe because your no better then the people who screwed you. If I get screwed you better believe everyone will know who did.

toshamc Feb 11, 2008 10:36 AM

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Tosha
JET Pythons

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