Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Over the past year, I have read an awful lot of reptile and snake books. Many were specifically about Kingsnakes. I just picked up a cornsnake book last week because I have a friend who is thinking about getting a snake and I told her corns would be an excellent beginner snake. Well, I was reading the book before I loaned it to her and there's a tiny passage next to one of the pictures that says basically, oh by the way, if you have an albino cornsnake or any that lack melanin, do not put a uvb or uva light over them as it will hurt them. I had a major duh! moment, because of course this makes sense. Albino humans avoid the sun because of the damage it can cause. My problem is that this was the first book or source on snakes that had mentioned it. None of the other books ever said a word and I hadn't seen anyone on the forums or any of the online care sheets that say anything about it. I feel bad now because I had a low-wattage UV light over my lavender kingsnake's cage before she escaped. I really wish I had known that earlier, or maybe made the connection on my own. I guess it should be common sense stuff.

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Holly

0.1 Lavender California Kingsnake (Lizzie Borden) (missing )
1.0 Bearded Dragon (Charley Manson)
1.0 Orange Marmalade Cat (Oliver)
1.0 Egyptian Arabian (Bagan)

2.0 Toddlers (Justice & Trevor)

As most snakes spend the majority of the day light hours hiding any way I doubt it would harm them.

Unless of course you left it on 24/7, then it would stress almost any snake out.

Don't stress your self out. I don't think a normal photo period (day/night cycle) would harm them.

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"The band is just fantastic, that is really what I think. Oh by the way, which ones pink?"

Article on Albinism:

"Vision aids
Glasses and other vision aids, large-print materials and closed captioning, as well as bright but angled reading lights, can help individuals with albinism, even though their vision cannot be corrected completely. Some albinistic people do well using bifocals (with a strong reading lens), prescription reading glasses, and/or hand-held devices such as magnifiers or monoculars.[3] Contact lenses may be colored to block light transmission through the iris. Some use bioptics, glasses which have small telescopes mounted on, in, or behind their regular lenses, so that they can look through either the regular lens or the telescope. Newer designs of bioptics use smaller light-weight lenses. Some US states allow the use of bioptic telescopes for driving motor vehicles. (See also NOAH bulletin "Low Vision Aids".)

Although still disputed among the experts,[attribution needed] many ophthalmologists recommend the use of glasses from early childhood onward to allow the eyes the best development possible.

Optometrists or ophthalmologists who are experienced in working with low vision patients can recommend various optical aids. Some low-vision clinics provide these aids on trial loan, with instruction in their use.

[edit] Sun protection
It is vital that people with albinism use sunscreen when exposed to sunlight to prevent premature skin aging or skin cancer. This poses a problem for those who cannot afford sunscreen, especially in regions with high exposure to sunlight, as in Africa.[citation needed]

Use of sunglasses and hats with wide brims can make the glare outside bearable. Other things that can help people with albinism are avoiding sudden changes of the lighting situation (switching the light on in complete darkness), using dimmable switches and adding tint to car windows or blinds to normal windows. Lights should be yellowish rather than blue[citation needed] and not point towards the usual position of a person with albinism (like their seat at a table).[citation needed]"

Of course it's understood that this article deals with people, but I think the same holds true for albino animals, with the exception of those who have fur coats. Could we really be harming our "designer" snakes with all these albinistic colors, hurting them with even a "normal" photoperiod of 12 day hours and 12 night hours? Yes, I'm still concerned. Especially that other books haven't mentioned it.

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Holly

0.1 Lavender California Kingsnake (Lizzie Borden) (missing )
1.0 Bearded Dragon (Charley Manson)
1.0 Orange Marmalade Cat (Oliver)
1.0 Egyptian Arabian (Bagan)

2.0 Toddlers (Justice & Trevor)

You're right to be concerned - you can actually sunburn the snake if it has no where to hide.

I have an albino kingsnake, and I was using a 5.0 UVB bulb over the cage because I figured daytime light in a display cage couldn't be a bad thing. I never saw my snake! I had read in a book about all the basking and other behaviors kingsnakes and others will exhibit when placed in a good display cage and my kingsnake was doing nothing but hiding in the dirt.

I talked to the folks at work about it, and they laughed at me for putting the UVB light on there. In the subsequent teasing, I learned that my snake was being smart and avoiding the UVB and a likely sunburn.

So, I went home and stopped using the UVB light, and used just a nice basking light not meant to mimic natural sunlight wavelengths. What do you know, my snake started coming out to bask, explore, and generally hang out. I see my snake almost every single day out doing something, and the difference is great.

I think a very low output UVB light might be acceptable, but honestly my snake is doing so awesome with the basking light (60 watt "daylight bulb" from zoomed) that I don't see a reason to try a UVB light again.

Good looking out!

~jenny
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"Polysyllabism in no way insures that what you're saying is actually worth being heard." - Blake (an e-friend of mine)

"I have never made but one prayer to god, a very short one: "O lord, make my enemies ridiculous." And he granted it." - Voltaire

See, that's what bothers me. When my lavender was still in her cage, she would always rush to get underground, never even used her hides. I think that's why at first opportunity to get out, she fled. I'm sure she's in a nice dark corner in my walk-in closet, curled up in a shoe or something saying "Nyah nyah" to me. >_<

I would certainly do things differently if I ever find her.

This picture was from one of the few times she chose to venture out of the substrate, long after the timer had shut the lights off.

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Holly

0.1 Lavender California Kingsnake (Lizzie Borden) (missing )
1.0 Bearded Dragon (Charley Manson)
1.0 Orange Marmalade Cat (Oliver)
1.0 Egyptian Arabian (Bagan)

2.0 Toddlers (Justice & Trevor)

maybe she escaped because a snake is not a domesticated animal, and they do enjoy being kept in an enclosure.

If you would like try this experiment. Place an open enclosure in a dark place, place a snake in and see if the how long the snake remains there.

I can't imagine any snake reduced melanin or not that will remain in an enclosure if it can find a way out.
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"The band is just fantastic, that is really what I think. Oh by the way, which ones pink?"

your snake got out because its a snake!!!! they leave at any chance possible.
uvb is not needed with "most" snakes(i know their are at least a few that do need it) because most snakes are nocturnal and feed on animals with high amounts of protiens and dont require uvb to synthesize calcium into d3. as far as sunburns go anything introduced to to much uvb regardless of melenin will get sunburned yes the chances would increase with less melenin.
and as far as albinism effecting the eyes is a human thing most animals with albinism have normal vision which is not the best to begin with in many snakes. their sense of smell is their best sight.
adam
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" a.k.a. farfrumugen "
hybrid breeders association
1.1 puebladurans
1.1 sinacorns
1.1 hypo corns
1.1 kenyan sand boas
1.1 mbk
1.1 albino corns
1.1 childrens python
1.2 ghost corns
2.2 butter(both females motley)
2.2 pyroxgreerixruthvenixalternaxcampbellixholbrooki
0.1 hypo pyroxgreerixruthvenixalternaxcampbellixholbrooki
1.0 snow corns
1.0 jurassic milk
1.0 house snake
1.0 crimson corns
0.2 albino pueblacorns
0.1 striped ghosts
0.1 anery pueblacorn
0.1 bloodred
0.1 striped albino corn
0.1 albino nelsons
0.1 anery motley
0.1 normal corn het hypo,anery
0.1 hypo tang hondo
0.1 rosy boa

You know, there's really no need to put a light on any kingsnake or corn snake. They live underground and avoid the light most of the time. All of mine do just fine without any lights. In fact, they usually spend the vast majority their time in hide boxes, seldom coming out unless I turn on the heat tape. Keep turtles under a light, not snakes. Snakes do not need it.

I hope I didn't sound rude in my answer to you, but i wanted to add something else too. Pet shops will often tell people that all reptiles need UVB lights (or whatever) just to sell more crap. I'm sure that is true for lizards, tortoises and turtles, but not snakes. Snakes never need lights, and are actually better off without them. That's just the way it is. But, I understand your desire to see your pet in action, so use the basking lights if you want, but be sure to provide a hide box for the animal to escape into if it gets tired of the exposure.

Brian Hubbs

Actually, some snakes DO do better with UVB lights. Boa constrictors do better, many arboreal species do better, and it's necessary for grass snakes and other non-burrowing species that also eat insects. Sure, boas and many arboreal snakes will do just fine without UVB, but they really do better when they have some.

Colubrids are not one of the genus that shows a noticeable difference with UVB, though.

~jenny
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"Polysyllabism in no way insures that what you're saying is actually worth being heard." - Blake (an e-friend of mine)

"I have never made but one prayer to god, a very short one: "O lord, make my enemies ridiculous." And he granted it." - Voltaire

Do you have any studies to back that up? Many people have claimed that UVB helps snakes psychologically and can trigger certain breeding behaviors, but I don't think it's ever been proven.

Certainly it can't hurt, though, I'd imagine. Plus it looks nicer with a naturalistic display.

Oh, and Colubridae isn't a genus it's a family. Grass snakes and the insectivores you mentioned would fall under the family of Colubridae.
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Diego

You're right, they would. My bad - I guess then I am referring to lampropeltis.

The most I can find this morning before class is this article about ratsnakes and UVB effects on shedding - only one paragraph is displayed and it is saying essentially that normal doses of UVB have controllable levels of damage to the snake's skin.

So no scientific studies, just general knowledge of other species' husbandry practices.

~jenny
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"Polysyllabism in no way insures that what you're saying is actually worth being heard." - Blake (an e-friend of mine)

"I have never made but one prayer to god, a very short one: "O lord, make my enemies ridiculous." And he granted it." - Voltaire

Many colubrid species bask, Hognose and Coachwhips come to mind. You have to ask yourself what could a snake possibly gain by basking in direct sunlight? One answer that comes to mind is D3.

It all boils down to the species in question. Even then there are no absolutes for an entire species across an entire range. Care should be individualized for each species. There are even differences related to gender within conspecific snakes.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks
Captive Bred Locality Matched Desert Kingsnakes

My point was that the statement "snakes do not need UVB" is too broad and inaccurate.

You are proving exactly my point - that all snakes are different and have different needs, UVB being one of those needs that varies species to species/snake to snake.

~jenny
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"Polysyllabism in no way insures that what you're saying is actually worth being heard." - Blake (an e-friend of mine)

"I have never made but one prayer to god, a very short one: "O lord, make my enemies ridiculous." And he granted it." - Voltaire

Sure, lots of species of snakes bask in the sunshine, but is it to warm themselves or to receive vitamin d3? It is pretty much understood that captive snakes receive the necessary calcium through the whole body prey that is offered to them.

Tons of folks have been keeping and breeding snakes indoors for many, many years without special lighting, something lizard owners couldn't do. Obviously, the lighting plays a crucial role in the captive lizards' physiological well-being.

Again, it might be nice to have for snakes, but is it truly necessary?
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Diego

Sure, lots of species of snakes bask in the sunshine, but is it to warm themselves or to receive vitamin d3? It is pretty much understood that captive snakes receive the necessary calcium through the whole body prey that is offered to them.

Well, then, by that token, wouldn't young snakes need "sunshine" since they feed on pinkies which have miniscule amounts of calcium?
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Holly

0.1 Lavender California Kingsnake (Lizzie Borden) (missing )
1.0 Bearded Dragon (Charley Manson)
1.0 Orange Marmalade Cat (Oliver)
1.0 Egyptian Arabian (Bagan)

2.0 Toddlers (Justice & Trevor)

"Well, then, by that token, wouldn't young snakes need "sunshine" since they feed on pinkies which have miniscule amounts of calcium?"

Maybe. It's a good point. However, I don't feed my snakes one pinky at a time.
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Diego

>>Sure, lots of species of snakes bask in the sunshine, but is it to warm themselves or to receive vitamin d3?

Probably both, but again depending on the species.

>>>>It is pretty much understood that captive snakes receive the necessary calcium through the whole body prey that is offered to them.

That is a generalization, which means it is true for the most part. D3 is the principal regulator of calcium homeostatsis, and just because a snake is nocturnal does not discount the need for D3.

For 25 years some alterna breeders have had problems with fertility and kinked babies, especially with WC snakes. What they are eating in the wild are little sun baked D3 cookies (Lizards), take them off that diet and throw them in a plastic box and feed them mice and all the sudden things don't work right for several generations. Once you get beyond a few generations the problems are not as severe, but still persist. Why is that? Can you or anyone answer that with complete certainty?

Anyone keeping and breeding Red Coachwhips will know exactly what I'm talking about.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks
Captive Bred Locality Matched Desert Kingsnakes

"For 25 years some alterna breeders have had problems with fertility and kinked babies, especially with WC snakes. What they are eating in the wild are little sun baked D3 cookies (Lizards), take them off that diet and throw them in a plastic box and feed them mice and all the sudden things don't work right for several generations. Once you get beyond a few generations the problems are not as severe, but still persist. Why is that? Can you or anyone answer that with complete certainty?"

I can not answer this with any certainty, as I do not have the experience that you or others have in this field. Matter of fact, all I have are more questions!

Are alterna known for basking? Was the problem then solved with UVB lighting? Vitamin and calcium D3 supplemented feeders?

Were the females found to be hypocalcemic after laying? Kinks and fertility problems don't necessarily have to be caused by calcium deficiencies. Temps can play a major role in these things as well.

Could it be the nervous nature of the animal stressed out from finding itself in a shoe box all of a sudden?
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Diego

Emulsified D3 helps these "problem" alterna a great deal. As I said the diet in the wild consists of a large portion of little sun baked D3 cookies (Lizards). Alterna have rarely been observed basking, mainly just a few gravid females that have been observed with heavy loops of body laid over sun warmed rocks in the late evening hours.

Since D3 is the principal regulator of calcium homeostasis, I think it is critical to be very careful with supplements that contain both D3 and calcium, as you run the serious risk of over calcification. D3 alone is sufficient, at least with "problem" WC alterna.

Kinks along with full term dead in egg neonates, are probably, or may be, a separate problem related to insufficient oxygen during incubation, especially near the end of term.

My only point is that, basking may indeed be critical for certain species both directly and indirectly. The other point to consider is that the vast majority of snake species have only been bred in captivity for about 30 years. There may well be problems associated with inadequate care that have yet to manifest themselves.

You've heard the old saying "you are what you eat", well the same goes for your snakes. In the wild these snakes may eat mice, but the mice are eating grasses and seeds, insects, and the end result is vast and varied diet loaded with nutrients, vitamins, and minerals. In captivity some folks are feeding their snakes mice which have been fed nothing but dog food. The snakes get no excercise, develop fatty deposits, throw infertile eggs, or get egg bound, and folks wonder what the heck is going on? Just something to think about if you think that keeping a snake in a plastic box and throwing a lab mouse every three days is sufficient care.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks
Captive Bred Locality Matched Desert Kingsnakes

"Emulsified D3 helps these "problem" alterna a great deal. As I said the diet in the wild consists of a large portion of little sun baked D3 cookies (Lizards). Alterna have rarely been observed basking, mainly just a few gravid females that have been observed with heavy loops of body laid over sun warmed rocks in the late evening hours.

Kinks along with full term dead in egg neonates, are probably, or may be, a separate problem related to insufficient oxygen during incubation, especially near the end of term. "

Thank you for clarifying that for me.

"You've heard the old saying "you are what you eat", well the same goes for your snakes. In the wild these snakes may eat mice, but the mice are eating grasses and seeds, insects, and the end result is vast and varied diet loaded with nutrients, vitamins, and minerals. In captivity some folks are feeding their snakes mice which have been fed nothing but dog food. The snakes get no excercise, develop fatty deposits, throw infertile eggs, or get egg bound, and folks wonder what the heck is going on? Just something to think about if you think that keeping a snake in a plastic box and throwing a lab mouse every three days is sufficient care."

I agree.
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Diego

But what species are doing well indoors in little plastic boxes? What about those hard to keep, hard to breed species? The ones that don't do well in captivity and that you don't hear about often?

All we are saying is that the statement "snakes do not need UVB" is too broad.

~jenny
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"Polysyllabism in no way insures that what you're saying is actually worth being heard." - Blake (an e-friend of mine)

"I have never made but one prayer to god, a very short one: "O lord, make my enemies ridiculous." And he granted it." - Voltaire

OK. Fair enough. Maybe some snakes need UVB lighting. Getula (it's a Kingsnake forum, right?) don't need it in captivity.
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Diego

Surprised that no one brought this up...

The level of UV light in your little tubes is nothing compared to sunlight. True albinos do need to be protected from sunlight as it can burn their skin and their retinas. Thats why zoos keep albino alligators indoors. I don't think zoo med tubes can hurt anything.

And MAYBE albino herps are somewhat more sensitive to light than regular ones however I seriously doubt that a UVB bulb has the strength to actually damage a captive herp.

With all of this said the snakes we are talking about on this forum live underground and don't feel comfortable when exposed in open bright light with no escape. So the bottom line is that if you provide dark hides any snake, albino or not, should be able to choose its own level of light comfort.

Also, even albinos need to be able to metabolize vitamins. So while they need less exposure to get the same amount of D3 conversion they still need some UV light. Did you know that a human being can metabolise all the vitamin D3 we need from 15 minutes of sunlight on just your face alone? EXCEPT only if you are white! If you are dark skined you need more sunlight. In fact thats one of the theories as to why people became whiter as they migrated out of sunny africa. (This has now gotten away from Kings who obviously don't require any direct sun if they are fed a nutritious diet)

Lastly your snake was just being a baby snake. They hide. A lot. Don't take it personally.