Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have been reading all the posts regarding the proposed ban. I have had this idea for a long time because of my views on keeping giant constrictors.

When I worked in a pet shop, customers would come in and begin looking at snakes. The comment made sometimes was "I want the biggest snake I can get." Through the conversation I would learn that this is their first snake to ever purchase, and the customer thought it would be "cool" to have a giant python to impress their friends. I think we can all agree that this is not a good situation. Inevitibly, the snake ends up dead because of improper care, or unwanted due to it's size and the gross underestimation of husbandry requirements. So, a pet shop or zoo is asked to take the animal back or it is sold to another unsuspecting person who thinks it is "cool" to have a giant snake.

My solution to the problem is this. The USFW should consider a permit system for individuals wanting to keep giant snakes. The permit would work as follows. First, the classification of a giant python. I am thinking African Rock, Burmese, Celonese, Reticulated Pythons and Anacondas. Second, the individual desiring to posess these animals must have verifiable experience with snakes other than giant snakes. How is this done? If an individual desires to keep a giant snake, they would be issued a permit by USFW based on a points system. A point is earned by keeping an animal that is not on the giant snake list for one year. After a specified number of points are obtained, a giant constrictor permit could be obtained. I would be willing to pay a nominal fee ($50-$75) per year, whether a person owns 1 or 10,000 snakes, to help the USFW in their efforts to keep these snakes in captivity and out of the wild in North America where they do not belong. This permit would have to be presented by the buyer to the seller at the time of purchase, and the records kept for a specified amount of time.

It is my opinion that something along these lines would stop the spur of the moment GIANT snake purchase made by an uneducated person. Also, if a person fulfilled all the requirements and still wanted a giant snake, I would feel that their commitment would be stronger due to the requirements met to be able to purchase the giant constrictor.

I don't want to see anyone loose their ability to sell, purchase, or keep these beautiful animals. I think a little regualtion to keep these animals in the hands of highly experienced keepers rather than a novice would be good for the animals also. I hope the one thing we are all concerned about more than anything is the proper care of these animals to ensure they live a healthy life.
-----
Happy Herping,
Jody Barnes
Royal Kreationz

My snakes aren't fat, they're big boned.

You've got an excellent idea as far as I'm concerned. It's sort of old-fashioned in theory: if you want a big snake bad enough, you have to "work" for it--and implicity, that work makes you a better, more knowledgeable keeper all around. Heck, you've got to work hard to get a driver's license, work hard to get a raise, work hard to get good grades. Why not work hard to own a potentially demanding, powerful and dangerous snake?

One issue that could be a fly in the ointment of your plan is how those records of your collection would be kept and by whom--USFW? The breeder or source where you got the snake from? Someone in authority would have to keep tabs on what you've got (and still got) each year. Maybe the way to do it would be to have to pay a small permit fee each year, and in paying that fee you'd essentially prove you're still keeping the animal and earning your point(s).

I don't have many snakes yet, but one of my primary criteria for the animals I do have is size. I'm not capable of sustaining a giant snake. So, I go for the smaller breeds--and they're still pythons. But, anyone with a couple hundred bucks can walk into a herp store and walk out with a retic or burmese. It doesn't make much sense to me. And, I can't help but wonder where all those burms and retics end up? Guess the government is starting to wonder the same thing...

I am ok with some form of permit system. After all you need permits for dogs and cats.

Though I do see some issues with placing permits on specifics like Reticulated Pythons or Burmese Pythons where there are dwarf forms. Especially with Retics, as some of the mutations are also dwarfed, as a side effect of the morph. While they are still good sized, they are in my opinion relatively manageable.

Permits are hard if not impossible to enforce. All they do is add another barrier on law abiding citizens that likely wouldn't have issues to begin with. Those types of people that shouldn't keep the animals, and where permits would benefit the whole, would simply not register them.

Whenever proposals are made against a larger group of animals people are always quick to compromise. It happened in NY and in Florida.

Instead of government control people need to get better ethics and a little more sense of responsibility. If you can't take care of an animal for its entire life, don't buy it as a baby. If you are selling an animal that could pose a problem with some people you need to heavily screen buyers. And others in the hobby need to self police these things. If there is a business selling animals to kids or to people that aren't in the position to care for them, then everyone needs to not give those companies business. I'd be all up for going around and giving a few people in this industry a swift smack upside the head.

Whatever happened to limited government???
-----
Gilbert Boas
The Boa List!

Jody,
It sounds like a well thought out reasonable plan which could have merits and could produce productive end results(more limited and responsible "giant snake" ownership), but since you breed ball pythons, let me ask you this: how would you feel if that plan were to be applied to ball pythons as well? Those "nominal fees (50-75$)" might not seem so nominal anymore, those fees add up on a national level to giant moneys, which grows a new sector of an agency, which in turn gives it power, which can be used to protect or control, a fine line. Sometimes control can have an inverse relationship with a little thing called freedom.
Sorry don't mean to rain on your good thought, but thats my view and I think it should be considered.
Jeff
-----
1.0 pastel ball python
0.1 mojave ball python
0.1 normal ball python
0.2 3-toed box turtles
2.3 eastern box turtles
0.0.5 3-striped mud turtle
1.0 northern diamondback terrapin
2.1 tiger salamander
1.1 red-sided garter
1.0 anerythristic red-sided garter
1.1 Iowa snow plains garter
1.1 Het butter stripe cornsnake
0.1 anerythristic motley cornsnake

I do think the fee would have to be an annual fee. I would support it only if the monies went back to taking care of the no longer wanted giant snakes.

I don't like big government either, but a little government control is better than what is being proposed now. At least we would be able to keep the animals and sell them as we do now.

Keeping records is all a part of keeping snakes, so it should be up to the keeper to provide proof of ownership. Photo ID should be easy enough.

I am just trying to throw an idea out there. If the USFW is going to regulate our hobby, I would rather see reptile enthusiasts propose something we can deal with rather than USFW just doing what they want and telling us to either like it or lump it. I understand my idea needs some tweaking to be able to work well, but if there is no rough draft then there can't be a final document.
-----
Happy Herping,
Jody Barnes
Royal Kreationz

My snakes aren't fat, they're big boned.

I here ya, I'm with you on that, just wanted to consider all angles.
-----
1.0 pastel ball python
0.1 mojave ball python
0.1 normal ball python
0.2 3-toed box turtles
2.3 eastern box turtles
0.0.5 3-striped mud turtle
1.0 northern diamondback terrapin
2.1 tiger salamander
1.1 red-sided garter
1.0 anerythristic red-sided garter
1.1 Iowa snow plains garter
1.1 Het butter stripe cornsnake
0.1 anerythristic motley cornsnake

Here's a couple of things to think about.

1. Draft a form that would be required to be filled out by the seller before selling the animal that would include at least the following.
Seller Info:
Name
Business Name & Address
Type of animal
Size & Sex ( when known)
Date of Sale
Identification marks and or micro chip #.

Buyer:
Name & Address & phone #
Drivers License or State ID # (required to verify sale is not to a minor)

Experience level. 1-10 ( Based on what the seller is told by the buyer).

This form is to be kept on file by the seller for a period of 5 years. This may cut down on the numbers of animals being released if there is a specific paper trail on them. We as breeders, collectors, sellers may want to set-up some kind of a national data base for electronic record keeping. I know most of the micro-chip company's have something like this. Maybe an annual fee to be lised as a "verified seller" through the record keeping co. This idea may seem a little extreme but it could very well limit these animals from getting into the wrong hands and letting "big brother" know we are capable of policing ourselves. As a retailer, it's sometimes very hard to argue with a customer and tell them " Sorry but this animal is really more than you can safely handle or really isn't right for you" when they are getting in your face and saying they want to buy it no matter what you say. If you have ever worked RETAIL for any lenght of time you know what I am talking about. Anyway these are just a few idea's I thought I would throw out there. Very good discussion.
Bruce Delles c/o Twin Cities Reptiles
IN THE RETAIL REPTILE BUSINESS SINCE 1978

I agree - it CAN be difficult in retail to convince someone they really aren't prepared to deal with a giant snake.
However, you don't have to sell to them. The best deterrents for selling snakes go exactly in this order:
1) Let the buyer 'practice' holding a snake...that you know will bite them.
2) Let the buyer 'practice' holding a snake... that you know will poop on them.
3) Show them an actual example of the adult size of the animal (effective with giant species), and then absolutely refuse to open the cage. Either be very vague about why you won't open it, or be very specific, and both in the worst way possible.

I've never had to go further than the third deterrent. It really is up to the seller not to sell an animal into a bad situation. I like the prospect of applying for and maintaining a permit to keep the truly giant species. I think that it should be kept up on both ends, though. Sellers should only be able to sell giant species to people who show they have the correct permit.
The only problem I see is enforcement. After the first year expires, and if the person doesn't want to get another snake, what happens to them if they don't pay up? Is anyone going to come knocking at their door to see if they still have the snake or not? It's not like people come a-knocking if you don't maintain the license on your dog on a yearly basis.

Just my thoughts.
~jenny
-----
"Polysyllabism in no way insures that what you're saying is actually worth being heard." - Blake (an e-friend of mine)

"I have never made but one prayer to god, a very short one: "O lord, make my enemies ridiculous." And he granted it." - Voltaire

If they have a problem with it, and you're in a business location, not just over the web, put up a sign that states that you have the right to refuse to sell an animal to someone you deem unable to take proper care of that animal. They'll still get mad but we might just have to deal with that.

one of the few posts i've read that actually address that big snakes are a problem in the wrong hands, and a start at addressing this.

sounds like a good idea to me. this has already happened here in florida. if you want to buy a burmese and a few other pythons and monitors you have to prove your experience and i think they check if you have the proper husbandry and i think there's a test or something you have to take? something like that but i do know that the animal has to be microchipped with your information in case you release it or it gets out. i like the idea of microchipping. that would surely deter someone from buying them if its an impulse buy. so maybe there are some ideas for you. google that law so you can see the exact requirements. i think it started january of this year.
-----
1.0 arg. b/w tegu
2.1 het pieds
0.1 southern painted turtle
0.1 crested gecko
1.0 apbt

but, in the reight hands they are a spectacular animal to see.

Richard Evans, who started the albino hognose craze, has a picture of a huge Burmese Python that he found while driving in Florida during Daytona '06. The snake he found was absolutely huge. I think he and an employee from his petshop were going to try to phtograph some herps or something when he saw it.
-----
Happy Herping,
Jody Barnes
Royal Kreationz

My snakes aren't fat, they're big boned.

In florida thats in affect already.You need to obtain a permit which is 100 dollars per snake that have been mentioned.That includes a micro chip that they put in each snake and the 100 bucks is due yearly.South florida is very notorious because of all the incidents with burmese found and not to mention in the everglades.I agree with the permit thing even being in south florida myself.You go in the classifieds in all this "rookies" trying to sell their burmese when it gets too big which can be as fast as 2 years.Just my 0.02 cents worth.

These are all OK ideas, but I still feel that these problems need to be addressed state by state.

IMHO, there is no difference between someone wanting to obtain a large constrictor as it would be for someone wanting to keep big cats (tigers, bobcats, servals, etc), and many states have permit systems that require you to gain experience with another permit holders and demonstrate that you have adequate facilities to house the animals.

I feel that many of you Giant keepers out there could jump through these hoops with minimal effort, and putting this system in place would discourage pet store owners to carry them (and boost business from captive breeders in turn). Let's face it...that baby burm on sale at the local reptile store is probably going to be bought on impulse by someone too stupid to know what they are getting into.