Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey guys,

I got my new Water Monitor last week. He is about 20 Inches long, and is going to be 6 months old in a few days. I put him right in his new enclosure, and let him stay there for 4 or 5 days, just to get aclimated to it. It is a 55 Gallon tank, a nice large water bowl, cypress mulch, and a stack similar to a "retes" stack. He seems to like it, hes on his branch, or dug in the mulch or in the stack most times of the day.

I just started trying to handle him. I heard that waters are typically a more docile monitor. After 5 days, I took him out and try an let him get to know me. He ended up biting me on the thumb, and gets really scared whenever I'm around the tank. Wont move, wont eat, will hide. Also after the first bite its like he trys to bite any chance he gets now, any time he is picked up he will bite so I always wear gloves now. I know hes still getting use to his environment, and he is only 6 months old. I am wondering if anyone who owns Waters, has some suggestions for me on calming this guy down a bit more. Is it just time or are there other things I could be doing? Should I be handling him already?

Thanks alot guys!

A 6 month old water monitor should be as long as a 55 gallon tank. Something is wrong if he still fits in it. What are you feeding him?

Do you realize how large this animals enclosure is going to need to be?

Since I have gotton him, I feed him fuzzy and pinkie rats, and insects, such as crickets and roaches. He eats till he is full basicly. Usually he will consume about 4 pinkies a day, and 12 or less crickets.

Do you personally own a Water? What do you think about my situation.

Also I dont need any lectures on enclosure size, please do not give me your opinions on that. I am refering to temperment. He will have his own room when he is large enough. Right now, the 55 is more then adequet.

He's only had it for a week. What in God's name could he possibly feed it that can make it grow 20 inches in that time? Perhaps you have some super food you're using that the rest of us don't know about? Personally I prefer to start my waters in 20'longs as they seem to feel more secure in the smaller tank and get to eating quicker than in larger enclosures and yes they do move up to bigger tanks/enclosures very quickly. But personally starting them in a smaller tank works better for me and I see no problem with starting one in a 55 with the exception of potential humidity issues which can be fixed easily. As for the original poster I have found that personally that most waters are in fact very shy at first and it takes time for them to get used to you. some (particularly females but some males also) will remain this way either way it takes patience to find out if you get to eager to handle them they will definitely stress out. While it is true that there are some waters that appear to be very tame like in that movie with Marlon Brando (I'm kind of suspect of the health of some these myself.) they are not usually quite that tame and I have some that are down right nasty one in fact that will actually come after you. I should mention that I don't try to handle mine frequently(maintennance only) as I prefer to let them be monitors and I do have some that are more handleable but you should be prepared have a 6 to 7 ft. lizard that might be quite mean.

The problem is, folks post all this stuff, you know, like key parts of a puzzle. They list what they think are important.

They list age, to the month, diet, etc. First, I have no idea how they know the age, as 99% are wild caught and often spend months and months in the system. They list things like hotspots and Retes boards(hey, I am Retes) You do know that RETES boards are not designed for waters don't u?.

They ask about handling(daily) etc.

All this leads to the fact that they do not know what they are doing. As in, healthy waters should grow like rockets and bite like the devil.

Then it leads to being kept in a ROOM. ROOMS ARE FOR HUMANS, not monitors. The average normal room is a death chamber for monitors. A room(living room, not bedroom) sized cage would be great.

Which all leads to this, a person who asks these type of questions, is well meaning, most likely a nice person, but should not be keeping a water in the first place. Which leads to this, its INSANE. The cages are too small for a water. Learn that now, before you torture the monitor and disappear in shame, which happens 99.99999999999% of the time with water monitor keepers.

Then those that actually keep them alive for more then five or so years, end up with a monitor that looks closer to a toad then a monitor(grossly obese) Of course there has been one or two in the time I have been keeping monitors(17yrs) that has done OK, by their waters.

So I back John on this, pressure the person, cause the person to think, TO ACTUALLY THINK. Cause the person to THINK ABOUT WHAT THEY ARE DOING.

And you guys wonder why they make all these stupid laws. They do because most people appear to be to "dumb" to think for themselves.

Sorry for the rant, but guezz, common now, waters in the average keepers hands is dumb.

For instance, a pond or a water. People say they do that, yes?. A pond indicates a body of water that the animal can swim in. In the case of the average water, a pond would be about the size of an average swimming pool(30ftX17ft). But nooooooooo a pond in reallife is one of those black pond dealys at Home depot or such. Its four to five feet across and would allow an adult water to wedge in and soak. Sir, thats actually called a BOWL.

A four to eight foot long ackie cage allows ackies to dash off, almost run. Have you EVER heard of an adult water dash off in their cage? have you ever heard of them even having the physical ability to DASH OFF? How sad. Please think long and hard before you offer your comeback.

Back to defending JME, he just picked the FIRST THING WRONG, in a long list. You probably have a better chance of conveying a point, one at a time instead of listing a whole bunch like me. Good on U, JME. Cheers

Sorry frank.. and to you as well jme. my point was just that this guy posted about having it a week and it seemed a little harsh to jump down his throat about having it in a 55. As you said it is probably wild-caught and there is no way of telling how old it actually is or how much it has got to eat before it got into this guy's hands. The point is there is no sense in blaming him for what may or may not have been wrong before he got the monitor but to help him deal with it now that he has it. Being that I do work with waters I always try to give my two cents( as good or as bad as it may be.) in an effort to help other water keepers. I know you don't like books that much but there is called the "Taxonomy,Life History and Conservation of Giant Reptiles in West Kalimantan" by Mark Andre Auliya( sorry I know it's a really long title.) that goes into quite a bit of detail about waters. One the things in the books is the stats on water monitors exported out of indo both as live animals. The numbers are staggering for the years he surveyed the numbers range just under half a million to just under 700,000 annually with about only 1% exported for live animals. That totally staggered me. I cannot imagine them sustaining those numbers for too long (although I haven't finished the book to see what his conclusions are on it yet.) or this species being available to the pet trade for too long If we don't succeed in maintaining them properly in captivity (I include myself in that btw.) the will be gone probably altogether. So anything any of us can do to encourage rather than discourage new water keepers is important if you ask me. Anyway that's my rant. I do appreciate your rants btw frank I actually learn a lot from them and look at the points you make very critically in order to improve my own husbandry and I have in fact changed my ways of thinking and ways of doing things due to points you make thanks.

First of all, I dont need your input, if that is what you have to offer.

My question, was simple, and in no way does my original post allow insights to most of the stuff that has been mentioned.

Second how do I know his age? He was born on August 18th, 2007, and just happend to weight 54 grams. I purchased him from Jim Alles at ReptileGuru, he told me, they havnt been handled much, and thats fine, but my question still exists. Any tips to allow him to acclimate properly, to not have him run in fear and keep his stress levels reduced as much as possible, while having people around. Is it just time? If so, simply reply, "its just gonna take time."

If you want to reply to my question thereof please do. Other then that, keep the 'no one should own waters, congress should fix this, you know nothing, your ignorant, you dont know how big they get, they smell like poop cause they do poop, they need a ocean to swim in" bs to your self.

Thanks, Mike.

That last post is directly to FR. The rest of you, thanks for your insight.

Thanks, Mike.

Mike,

No one should own waters, congress should fix this, you know nothing, your ignorant, you dont know how big they get, they smell like poop cause they do poop, they need a ocean to swim in.

That is all,

John

I am taking notes...

Hmm I think the point FR was making here is that if you have to ask such a simple question (as you said yourself) then maybe owning the largest, most expensive and demanding monitor you can own isnt the best idea. Just like it isnt for 99.999% of those that buy waters.

I find it ironic you mention Retes stacks in your original post and then proceed to be rude to Retes himself when he takes the time to provide an opinion. Funny stuff

Tom

The problem is the same, you do not include information and you want others to help you. You do not want others to assume, yet you do not give real information. Guess what, you will get what you ask for. If you do not get what you want, THEN ASK BETTER QUESTIONS AND INCLUDE BETTER INFO.

Next, its very apparent that monitors have personalities, some bite, some don't, some are to shy to bite, some are scared to death by humans(can't blame them, some humans are total boneheads) etc etc etc. But all are terrified of humans, to one extent or another. Or any LARGE animal for that matter. IF YOUR MONTIOR IS BITING YOU. It does not take a genius to figure out why. "ITS AFRAID OF YOU".

The fix is easy, TREAT IT IS SUCH A WAY it does not fear for ITS LIFE.

Then you ask if handling it everyday will fix that. Sorry, but all that does is traumatize the animal. So, you want to appear smart, yet you want to traumatize a traumatized animal, MORE! That does not reflect the intelligence of a "smart" person. And yes, we see that question, millions of times and they mostly come from teenage or less, neophytes, that have little to NO experience or intelligence when it comes to monitors or any animal. So forgive us, its not not to lump these posts together.

By the way, I did not repond to YOU, I responded to the poster who questioned JME's post. I actually said nothing to you.

And without question, JME was right, if you have a rare captive hatched water, It could easily grow 5 to 6 inches a month. Which would make it nearly four feet now. Or if you care is not so good, it should be at least three.

So you say, you just got it. It does not matter, its size is still a reflection of its care. Afterall, its always about results. Its results are compared to its KNOWN AGE. It really does not matter to the monitor WHO was taking care of it. That only matters to YOU.

Which by the way, has nothing to do with it biting or not.

So my responce to you is, do not worry about it biting or not, WORRY about its health and wellbeing. If you do, you will not "have" to worry about it biting. And leave the gall darn thing alone. Quit scaring the peawater out of it. It does pea and crap on you too, RIGHT? In the end, WHAT ARE YOU THINKING? hahahahahahahaha its just a little lizard. Cheers

Thats what I'm looking for! Thats what I wanted, your opinion on holding is a good one I think, most people seem to go that way, and I'll take that into consideration, and make sure hes only handled for now, when needed.

He does poop and pee too, man oh man haha. Thats what I signed up for though, so its cool with me...Im sure its only gonna get more messy and smelly too.

Thanks for that responce FR. I appreciate it.

Other opinions of such, are welcomed.

Thanks, Mike.

Guilty as charged...I missed the part about only owning the water for one week.

Here's my concern: Water monitors are very inexpensive yet they cost a fortune to house and maintain. This is a terrible combination because it causes impulse buying. I cringe everytime that I read a post asking about a water monitor because 99.9999% of these animals are doomed.

I'm afraid, but I may be wrong, that the individual who started this post has not put any thought into the long term care and housing needs of this animal. Again, I may be wrong.

Hopefully the originator of this post is not a minor, does not live at home with mom and dad, has stable income, and room to build a proper enclosure. The smell of a 7' water monitor cohabitating in the living space of a family can be very unpleasant. Housing a 7' water monitor in a room designed for people (carpet, drywall, etc.) is a long term disaster.

As FR has stated there is a real concern in the hobby right now with moves made by some of our government officials. If we, as hobbiest, don't regulate ourselves, than Uncle Sam will. We all know, some of us through first hand experience, that Uncle Sam take things way too far.

Again, the originator of this post may have thought through all of this. MadAxeMan, your information does nothing to make people think about the long term care of a giant lizard. Focusing on the aquarium debate accomplishes nothing and helps no one.

JME,

Thanks for your contributions. Also your pictures of the Lace Monitors were beuatiful. I did think this through, becuase if I dont do anything without thinking it through.

People love to toss out their two cents whenever they see a specific topic huh? If someone writes water monitor, another person is there with their finger on the trigger to write back HES TO BIG FOR YOU!!!!

Its a valid point, such an active reptile, that can tip the scales at 75 pounds. You definatly want to make sure you have the room, and ability to care for them. I said he will have his own room when hes large enough, people automaticly assume your gonna dump him in the guest room, with a queen size bed, and blue
plush carpet. Thats not the idea nor a practicle one, he will have his own room, that will be designed accordingly.

Once again too all people replying.

I am looking for some opinions directly relating to my first question!!! Haha, not a bunch of crap, I didnt pick this topic to create a debate, I had a question, which warrented specific answers of what has worked for some people, and doesnt seem to work so well for others.

Thus far not a single responce has been related to my question.

Thanks again, Mike.

if this helps...but the more I left my ackies alone, the more tolerable they were of me.

Also, don't "grab" them. Monitors hate to be restrained. Don't hold them let them hold you ? hehe sounds funny but if i go and grab my acks by the tail they struggle as opposed to if i jsut let them sit on my hand/arm where they just check everything out.

they are at the point now where they don't even seem to care/dash/move at all when i reach to pick them up (thats definitely not all the time though)

there is is a post you could search for by holly, i think thats the name, that is very informative about handling/acclimating? monitors.

Honestly, I would handle it only when absolutely necessary if it is reacting the way you say. That will only delay it getting comfortable with its surroundings and ultimately, you.

phantompoo out

Thanks Phantom

That seems to be most peoples opinions, and that how all of my iguanas always were when they were little.

Appreciate it,
Mike.

I'm just going to come right out and say it, then--

You're an idiot if you can't tell that the replies offered, including Frank's delightfully blunt run-down of why *no one* should really own Waters, are all relevant to your original question.

Having to ask denotes an ignorance that warrants oftentimes harsh replies relative to the whole versus what you'd like us to focus on. Regardless of what you know or think you know about keeping a Water, if this is your first then you NEED these "unrelated" replies.

Bella, our big girl at the shop, is two years old and roughly four and a half feet long. She's a fatty, because for all my efforts to keep her trim and healthy, it's difficult to provide her with sufficient room, hence my boss now tossing around the idea of selling her to a breeder or lugging her out to a rural area like where I'm at where she can have a massive indoor/outdoor enclosure with a swimming pool for her "pond".

What're the chances of you being able to provide the same?

Before you start crying about how my rpely isn't related to your question--

I work with a 4.5" long Water five or six days a week. She started off flighty, tamed down, and now charges anyone she thinks might be toting something edible.

Have fun.
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1.1 Ornate Uromastyx [Re and Wadjet]
1.0 Savannah Monitor [Zephyrus]
1.0 Quince Monitor [Poe]
1.1 Eastern Box Turtles [Zoink and Abel]
1.0 Sulcata Tortoise [Littlefoot]
0.1 Pink-Toe Tarantula [Athena]
1.1 Argus Monitors [Kharnak and Mudd]
1.0 Eastern Kingsnake [Duke]
0.1 Jungle Carpet Python [Whistler]

...And more rats than I can count anymore.

{Hi, I'm Harmony, and I'm a Varanophile...}

Regardless of what you think of my reply to FR, I dont see such a correlation directly with my question.

Your information however is not taken lightly, thanks for your repsonce.

Mike.

Mike,

All joking aside. You've purchased a magnificant monitor that is very demanding for the vast majority of people. He is going to be huge one day soon and will require an enormous commitment on your end.

Don't worry about handling or trying to tame this monitor. Start planning for a proper enclosure. Leave him be, take good care of him, and in time he may learn to see you as something that is not threatening. There is no way to force a monitor to be tame.

The joy in caring for these animals is the process of gradually understanding them over time. Frank (FR) is diffuclt to understand at times but as you observe these animals and spend time with them his advice begins to make a great deal of sense. Frank understands these animals and his success is proof enough.

The concern that many of us have is the fact that 99% of these animals die in the hands of inexperienced, young, immature keepers. I sincerely hope that you will make an effort to provide for this monitor. Again, handling him should not be a concern at this point so leave him be.

I hope that I've answered your question.

Good luck,

John

JME, thanks again.

As Ive said on your last post that seems to be the way most people work with their monitors. Taming isnt a goal, nor a requirement, I was just curious to his initial disposition really.

Thanks,
Mike.

If you read my original post I gave you some advice on the taming issue. Like I said there they tend to be shy as juveniles and get less shy with age and that the whole "Tame" thing more often than not is the result of not being in the best condition. But what do I know I've only been working with waters for 14yrs. Franks comment about them "growing like Rockets and biting like the devil" was pretty accurate but apparently in your opinion he doesn't know anything either. But since being nice doesn't seem to get through to you let tell you what you are REALLY in for. Over the years I have almost lost my thumb had a bite that went completely through the tip of my thumb and thumbnail and several other major bites that always bleed and bleed usually for several hours (not an exaggeration) Just last night a 5.5ft water I have nicknamed "jaws" due to it's response to food almost got my hand which would have screwed up if not took it off altogether. I have another one that is about 3ft. that I jokingly refer to as my "komodo" as it will come out of it's cage and chase after you at feeding time if you are not careful. I suspect komodos are not quite as aggressive as this water and it is not the first one I have had that would come after you (far from it in fact). I always laugh at people who think niles are more aggressive than waters. Niles can be aggressive but in my experience are not as bad as the worst of waters. I had a nile for almost 15yrs and got bit maybe 3 times by that monitor and tail whacked across the bridge of my nose once which almost knocked me out but it was nowhere near as aggressive as "jaws" or the "komodo". That said I love working with them of all the reptiles I have played with over the years it would be a hard toss-up between them and Parson's chameleons as to which is my favorite reptile. I wish you luck with working with waters as I said in my answer to Frank it is my hope that people take waters more seriously as they are not going to be available for ever and given the vast number that end up as handbags and boots they are on their way to becoming a seriously endangered species so the more people who honestly work with them and try to maintain breeding populations in captivity the better. However given your attitude towards honest and hard advice from frank I think you are on your way to failure. I learn lots form things frank has to say and I have been doing this a lot longer than you.

I never said that I disregard all information given unless it was related directly to my question. That being said most if not all of what FR, JME, and everyone said is probably true, its just stuff Ive heard over and over, and that infact am taking into consideration. By no means do I intent to disrepect anyone on here.

Just curious, do you typically wear gloves when interacting at all? When you were bit did you have gloves on?

I don't handle them unless I am moving them to clean cages or other situations that require their moving in other words I don't "play" with my monitors I try to let them be monitors as much as possible. I usually where gloves with any waters that are bigger than about 3ft but I tend to use only one glove as you do lose a bit of control with gloves. It's kind of a balance between protection and control. All of the bad bites I have gotten were when I was not wearing gloves so I tend to use them these days although just last night I did move a 4 footer without wearing gloves which could have had a bad result. They can still hurt you through the gloves but it minimizes the damage. I really don't get bit all that often and if you learn to think before you act you probably won't either. It's just that with monitors that big when one does get you it does some damage. gloves are much cheaper than hospital visits. From the tone of your posts I suspect you are still somewhat young(18-22 or so I'm almost 40 so that is young to me) as you seem to have that "I know it all" kind of thing going. That's as bad as I am making it sound as we all had that at that age. But it will help you to step back and look at the things Frank and JME and myself and others are trying tell you and learn what you can from them. Even after many years of keeping monitors I learn things from Frank's posts and other's posts here. It's when we can ditch that "I know everything attitude" that we start to learn and improve on things not just on husbandry but on all things in life.

It appears to me that my water is calming down significantly as he grows larger. Consider as a small water he is hardwired to be extremely defensive, fearful, aware and aggressive to even have a small hope of survival.

As they get larger there are fewer and fewer predators that pose a threat and their behavior reflects that. They switch to being the one that scares everything instead of being scared by everything. See that vid where those lion cubs and lioness where scared off by a blackthroat? hahah those things wanted no part of that hissing whipping biting nightmare.

I also found forcing him into anything is a big no-no for him. He holds a grudge for weeks if I piss him off once.

My advice is leave him be and establish trust slowly over time and see how it goes.

Tom

Thanks Tom. I appreciate it.

Mike.

Spyder
The best thing you can do is leave it alone.
Let your Monitor (doesn't matter what species) learn to TRUST you.
Start by just walking into the room and don't muck with him.
Do this over and over.
Soon he will let you approach the enclosure (an enclosure is much better to accomplish this "tollerance" your looking for than an aquarium).

By having a front opening enclosure you will over time be able to show him some food off of tongs.
Once he trusts you enough to take the food from you, your almost done.
At this point you can draw him near you (several feedings).
Once he's chowin down on some food you can slowly try touching his tail (several feedings).
Next his back (several feedings), next your hand under his belly (several feedings) and so on.

To answer your question, yes...to build a trusting relation with your Monitor it will take some time.
I hope this will help.
Mike
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Mike's Monitors!

I only intend to have the 55, while I work on designing the next enclosure. Non the less, your saying I am probably better off switching to a front opening enclosure for his first few months?

Thanks,
Mike.

Spyder
In my experience, a front opening enclosure really helps!
By the time you fumble and clink around pulling the top from over the Monitors head, they are pretty scared.

If you were to have a front opening enclosure it is less stressfull to the Monitor, give him an enclosure with some height.
Being able to get higher than you really cuts down on stress and helps gaining trust.
Good Luck to you.
Mike
Link

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Mike's Monitors!

"I just started trying to handle him. I heard that waters are typically a more docile monitor. After 5 days, I took him out and try an let him get to know me. He ended up biting me on the thumb, and gets really scared whenever I'm around the tank. Wont move, wont eat, will hide."

Dude, he's scared of you.

"I Also after the first bite its like he trys to bite any chance he gets now, any time he is picked up he will bite so I always wear gloves now."

Well, I suspect you put him down right after he bit you so now he knows that if he bites you, you will let him go. Pretty simple. Next time he bites you, bite him back. (Actually don't bite him back, I'm kidding)

"I am wondering if anyone who owns Waters, has some suggestions for me on calming this guy down a bit more. Is it just time or are there other things I could be doing? Should I be handling him already?"

I had a water monitor, unfortunately she died in a car accident, however she became very "tame" and sweet before that happened. My suggestion for you is do not grab your monitor and take it out of the cage! I waited a few weeks until the monitor was used to the new environment and comfortable walking around in the open before I made myself present. First I would open the door and just stand there, not intruding on the monitors space. I would let her get used to my presence and the sound of my voice. Eventually when she was no longer scared of me, I would hold my hand in the cage in the shape of a fist. Just barely inside the door(once again, being non invasive). I would sit there, and sit there and sit there. And when I was tired of sitting there, I continued to sit. Eventually curiosity took over and she had to come investigate(monitors are naturally very inquisitive). When she eventually walked onto my hand, I did not move. Just sat there. Eventually I would lift my hand a little, but not enough to startle her. Slow progression eventually led to her always walking right up to me and up my arm whenever I opened the cage. As someone else mentioned, just do not restrain them. They obviously don't like that. This process took tons and tons of patience, but was completely worth it. Not grabbing the monitor when she came near took lots of restraint and after many hours per day for many months, the hard work paid off. My suggestion to you is, introduce yourself in a non-invasive way and get the monitor to "accept" you into their world instead of forcing them to deal with you. It will make a world of a difference. So be patient and keep the monitors best interest at heart. Oh yeah, and food helps. If they realize you are the food source, they may be more inclined to like you since they LOVE to eat.

Oh, and NO, I do not think you should be handling him already.

One question...why cypress mulch?

Thanks for your reply, sorry about your loss.

I picked Cypress becuase it is always available here, pretty cheap, and most people seemed to be using that with whom I talked to, and from what I have read online.

I did hear a few things about a soil mix, but I am unsure exactly of what is meant by that. I know a top soil or somthing I guess mixed dirt or mulch, but I have not tried that.

Also, I have used cypress with my iguanas for years with no problems.

If you have some suggestions as far as that goes, or an insight into what you use that you believe is better let me know. You could even email me at SpyderPB6@hotmail.com if you can give me a good idea.

Thanks, Mike.

Because I don't know if you will find this to be a "good" idea, I will just post here instead of email.

I had a cage I had previously used for a Tegu and had it split with half dirt and half cypress mulch(each half completely separate). I noticed that the monitor was almost always on the side with the dirt. So, based on observing my preferences I took out the cypress mulch.

For the dirt, I just used some stuff I dug up outside near the house. Something that would hold a burrow when moist but would not turn rock solid.

Then when I moved to a different place and no longer had access to the dirt, I bought some playsand and topsoil at home depot. Make sure both of them have no additives for killing weeds or better growth or any such nonsense. I mixed them together until I found a consistancy I thought might be suitable for the monitor. Almost seemed like 2 bags of top soil to 1 of playsand but I don't remember exactly. I have heard some people talk of adding a top layer of leaf litter, so you can try that also. Although I did think the dirt I dug up outside worked better than the mix.

I don't think that cypress mulch is the worst option, however I think you can find much better substrates as well. Try out some different stuff and see what your monitor prefers. That is one of the things I love about keeping monitors is the trial and error. They all have their own preferences so you adjust to what they seem to like. Its not cut and dry like keeping some other reptiles.

I don't know much about Iguanas because I had one years ago and have not been interested in them since. But you monitor will build a burrow, as long as you give it a substrate that it can utilize. I would definitely recommend trying different things until you find what you think works best. Don't just go based on what other people say and believe that to be best.