Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'm having trouble finding out how FL's new "species of Concern" laws will affect reptile shows in FL.

Example 1:
I live outside of FL but am considering selling some of my CB burmese python babies at a FL reptile show or two. What's it gonna take for me to do so?

Example 2:
What will non-FL residents have to do to purchase burmese pythons at FL shows?

Thanks!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

You know...I really can't say. I would think you would have to ask the fish and game guys but considering they still have the "reptiles of concern" (sorry I don't like acronyms...I am not a scientologist.) information mixed in with their venomous information on their website I am not sure they could tell you at this point. Add to that some of the real "rocket scientists" fish and game has working for them and it's hard to say you'll ever be able to get a straight answer.

Since this is the first year with the new permitting, it will be interesting....

This may not be accurate, especially since I've already made some errors in the interpretation of all this. I think that out of state sellers and buyers are not affected. Those FL residents who purchase ROC's must have them tagged and added to their permits right away. Animals do not have to be tagged until they are over 4" in diameter. FWC has to realize that out of state vendors won't have microchipped animals.

If you go to any of the dealers and are from out of state and want to purchase venomous you cannot take possession of them without a Fl. venomous permit even if you are leaving the state. I think the only way you can get them being from out of state is possibly pick them out and have the dealer ship them to you and I am not a hundred percent sure you can even do that. I have seen out of state people turned down at least twice at strictly's since I have been here. So I really don't know how it will be with out of state people and the "reptiles of Concern" (acronym-scientology thing...see my last post...perhaps the real conspiracy is that scientologists have infiltrated our govt. ha ha.)I had heard rumors early on that if the florida law passed wayne was considering moving his show to one of the Carolinas so who knows it may not be much of an issue as far as his show is concerned. I wonder how much money fish and game and daytona will end up losing from that move?

First off, thanks, Axe, for clarifying my question. I said, "species of concern" when in fact it is what you said, "Reptiles of Concern."

Axe, you're right about the issue involving purchasing venomous. I went thru that a few years ago at an Orlando F.I.R.E. show. You can't take possession of them without a FL venomous license, you have to have them shipped.

As for the Daytona Breeders show, I looked at their website last night and it said the show is scheduled for Daytona for August 22 - 24.

Laura,
You mentioned the size of 4 inches in diameter for microchipping. I've read in the statutes where they said 2 inches. Have they modified that? I know not all of their online statutes are completely updated because I saw one that still listed the $1,000 bond instead of the new $10,000 bond requirement for venomous. (Huff! - at FL's inconsistencies, not you, Laura. )

I've spent too much time researching FL's confusing legal mumbo-jumbo. Aaarrrrggghhhhh!!!

After a lot searching I finally called FWC and spoke to someone who said she had been trained in the area of "Reptiles of Concern." (Yeah, right! Hahaha!!!)

I was told that:
As a seller/dealer - I need a $50 permit to sell or display ROC (reptiles of concern). I also need a $100 permit to possess ROC. I asked her about needing an Import permit since I'd be bringing them into the state to sell & she said she didn't know. One place that I found on FWC's site said that I would need a "no-cost" Import permit.

Now, after getting off the phone I searched again and found this:
Section I-Wildlife Possessed for Exhibition, Public Sale, or for Personal Use:

The purpose of this Statute is to ensure humane treatment and sanitary surroundings for wild animals kept in captivity for public display or sale. It charges the Commission with licensing those who desire to offer wildlife for sale, or exhibit them for a fee or otherwise. Applicants for permits must show the place, number, and type of wildlife they plan to possess. Caging facilities are subject to inspection prior to authorization and applicants must have the required experience. License fees range from $5 for up to 10 animals and $25 for over 10 animals. Commercial operations are generally characterized by: (1) a regular media advertising campaign; (2) signs, billboards, or flyers advertising commercial wildlife services or operations; (3) regular "open for business" hours; and (4) written business is conducted on printed letterhead paper, indicating the name of the company.
Source: myfwc.com/captive/cwr-3.html

However, I also found this:
(c) For any number of Class III individual specimens in the aggregate of all species, the sum of $50 per annum.
372.921 Exhibition or sale of wildlife.

I was told that:
As a buyer - In order to take possession of an ROC, whether a FL resident or not, I would need the $100 ROC Possession permit.

Get real, Florida! I was born & raised in Central FL and I love the community that I'm from (Apopka/Plymouth), but I'll be dang if I'm movin' back with their ridiculous, hideous, reptile & animal laws. My mom still lives there & one of these days I'll have sole possession of her house but I'll probably give it to my nephew that lives close by. OK, enough of that rant. Sorry.

Back to the issue of the affect the laws will have on FL reptile shows:
I usually attend an Orlando show & the Daytona show each year. Under the above guidelines I have no reason or desire to do so anymore. Now, if I was into ball pythons & geckos, then load 'em up, I'd be there. But i'm not, I'm into pythons, the big boys (FL's ROC). Why should I go? Change my taste? Ha! No way, Jose!!! Not to suit silly government bureaucrats.

I will be attending SC shows for the first time this year with hopes of them filling a void. I hate it for the promoters of the FL shows as I've loved every one I've been to.

Hopefully something can be done to accomodate out-of-state residents purchasing ROC so I can continue to support FL reptile shows.

Just FYI for those of you that don't know what FL considers ROC (Reptiles of Concern):
Burmese python (Python molurus)
African rock python (Python sebae)
Amethystine python (Morelia amethystinus)
Reticulated python (Python reticulatus)
Green anaconda (Eunectes murinus)
Nile monitor (Varanus niloticus)
...or any hybrid thereof.

Ya'll take care, and give 'em heck!
HH

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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

"Axe, you're right about the issue involving purchasing venomous. I went thru that a few years ago at an Orlando F.I.R.E. show. You can't take possession of them without a FL venomous license, you have to have them shipped."

I didn't know that...I don't know a thing about hots. Quite frankly, I'm really surprised in a naive sort of way. It just doesn't make sense to get a permit to transport an animal out of the state. But I know, I know... 1) It's a money for the state and 2) It keeps people from buying them dishonestly.

"As for the Daytona Breeders show, I looked at their website last night and it said the show is scheduled for Daytona for August 22 - 24."

I imagine they couldn't move a show that big in one year.

"Laura,
You mentioned the size of 4 inches in diameter for microchipping. I've read in the statutes where they said 2 inches. Have they modified that?"

Maybe they have. I probably shouldn't have posted anything at all; I just like talking to you, Mike, LOL! When I first read the guidelines it read 4". When is a ROC ever 2"?

"I've spent too much time researching FL's confusing legal mumbo-jumbo. Aaarrrrggghhhhh!!!"

You and me both...I just gave up.

I had similar experiences when I had my FWC inspection for my gator. Over the phone the officer was giving me a lot of misinformation. Before he came to my house, I printed up the regs off the website, 'just in case'. It seems he reviewed them, too, because his info changed once he got there.

I'd have to reread the exhibition permit applications again, but I could have sworn one of questions dealt with being a FL resident.

FL's really not so bad. I don't mind the ROC permitting as much as others do (go ahead, throw tomatoes at me!). I guess it's because I do a lot of community education and I work with some inner city programs. There's a lot of people there who don't treat their animals well, and they see large reptiles as a cool possession or something that intimidates. It's disposable and when they're done with it, who really cares what happens? Let's catch an alligator, keep it and re-release it. Let's buy a Burm, cram it into a small aquarium, then take it out and walk the streets to scare the crap out of people.

I understand why the FWC wants to regulate, but it's a little out of hand. The permit doesn't effect me as much as you because I'm not a breeder, a vendor, and I don't plan on buying more (OK, maybe one more). What gets my hot button is the disclosure and exotic zoning propositions. I don't own a gun and in my neighborhood, I would be afraid of some of these wackos who have them. However, everyone has a right to own one, and I have a right to keep any reptile I want in my house in a safe manner.

You had one of your older friends get it for you of course. So if I a fl. resident wanted a king cobra and didn't have a venomous permit. When one of my friends who wasn't a Fl. resident came to visit I could haul him to one of the dealers and have him claim that he is buying it for himself and then hand it over to me once we got home. Another thing I could do would be if I had just moved here and not yet changed my driver's license to just go to a dealer myself and claim I was an out of state resident and take possession of the animal myself. Perhaps these two scenarios help make the thing about not being able to take possession of hots without a permit within the state even if you are not a resident. Not to mention that allowing out of state residents the right to take possession of such animals essentially gives them more rights than actual tax-paying residents of Fl. which would probably tick alot of them off. A not-so-wise thing to do in a state where angry voters could vote your bosses out of office or theoretically vote an amendment into existence that could eliminate your job altogether. As far as the "reptiles of Concern" rules go I agree that something needed to be done about idiots buying animals they have no business own but I think the rules are going to fail. For one thing I have a huge problem with the state telling me I have to fork out $100 dollars a year and essentially give up the 4th amendment rights afforded me in the constitution of the U.S. for animals That I may or may not have or may or may not have owned for over 15 yrs. I also have religious opposition to microchips as do alot of conservative christians. I am sure that I am not alone in at least the first two of my reasons I think their rules will fail. Dog licenses are much cheaper and are usually required by law in most places and yet I'll bet not 1/10 of the dogs out there are not licensed. In fact I have never ever licensed any of my dogs never will and I used to work for a Humane society/animal control agency in a county where I was under their jurisdiction and still didn't have my dogs licensed(3 guesses who they used to send out on "suicide missions" after aggressive unlicensed dogs) A better solution to the problem would have been to require a class(for a fee of course) for people wanting such animals that would let them know what they are getting into and then giving them a certificate that would allow them to purchase such animals kind of like they do with diving. No intrusions on fourth amendment rights no annual fees unless you want to get more animals no bullcrap. They could do the classes at the shows and would probably make more money than they ever will with what they have now. But that's just my two cents on it.

I do not keep hots king cobra or otherwise the above scenario was a hypothetical situation to show why out-of-state people are not allowed possession of such animals within the state.

I reasoned that out...that's why I mentioned people would buy them dishonestly anyway. You know, I like my constitutional rights, too. Perhaps I just don't feel infringed upon. As a fellow conservative Christian, my interpretation of both politics and theology are just a bit different than yours. It's no big deal...I can handle hearing other people's opinions without getting offended. And I can stand for the tomatoes when they come my way.

Axe,
Who gave you that beer before you posted? Hahahaha!!!

Nah, you know I'm just pickin' at ya. I did have to read a couple of the sentences a few times, but that could just be because I'm a hillbilly. Hahaha!!!

Well, as yet another conservative Christian, Southern Baptist, I might add (gasp!), I can somewhat understand not allowing non-residents to freely take possession of venomous or ROC, but to place the same burdens on us as FL residents who will keep the snakes within FL's boundaries of concern isn't fair, either. Don't ask me for a solution, I'm too tired at the moment to even try to think about one, and this post will probably reflect that. Haha!

I do feel that $100 annual permits for ROC is too steep, resident or not. I coud see a $100 - five to ten year permit, which would be paid up front but is good for five - ten years. I don't think I'd balk at that.

Now, FL's 1,000 hour training requirement for venomous is flat out ridiculous. At 40 hours per week that's over 6 months. Heck, when I was 14 & growing up in FL, I was catchin' & keepin' Eastern Diamondbacks. No bites. Yet, at least.

(OK, tighten up HH) Sorry 'bout that mini rant. Ha!

Axe, is there a Ruby Ridge in Lake County? hahahaha!!! But seriously, the disclosure thing Laura spoke of earlier does bother me a tad. In a way, I can kinda see it from a paranoia stand point, but there are far more scarier lifestyles than keeping animals.

Catch ya later!
Mike
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Hey Laura!
Hopefully they won't have to move any of the reptile shows out of FL. Hopefully they'll get something good ironed out soon. I suppose I should try to contact Wanye Hill to see if they know for sure what out of state vendors & buyers will have to do.

I'm glad to hear that the FWS guy had everything figured out before he got there & it's good that you were well armed (so to speak).

As for an ROC being under 2" diameter, I might have to starve 'em (just kidding!). But heck, by the time someone got to the door to leave the show it would be over 2". Haha!

You know, I've tried looking at the disclosure laws from both sides and in a way I can see both sides. However, I think it does violate the right to privacy and will cause more contention, anxiety, etc, than any good. How many neighbors have been attacked by an escaped gator, venomous snake, tiger, etc,? Next thing you know you'll have to put a flashin' neon sign on your Dodge, tellin' everyone on the street that it's got a Hemi. LOL!

Nah, I still like FL, it could be worse (and a tad better), but I still like it, even though my lil' redneck town has grown into a traffic jam.

Keep 'em straight down there!
Mike
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Hey HH what's up? My point of being a conservative(libertarian)Christian gives me no concern over the venomous snake thing I've kept a couple in the past myself just not since I've lived here. My thing is the microchips....those are the mark of the beast (in your wrist or forehead...can't buy or sell without them...think of where the technology is going.you'll see what I am saying.)I am not the only one who feels this way and in fact it was pointed out to me by someone else. I have no problem with that technology and if someone wants to use them great I will stand before God for my own actions not the actions of others. I have a HUGE problem with the government TELLING me to put them in my animals, it starts with them and eventually it goes to us. I also agree with you on the amount of hours for venomous reptiles I have personally seen people who get to know someone with a hot permit and then get signed off and have no business owning hots in spite of any "training" they got. Yet if you are someone like me who works with reptiles basically full time and cannot afford to go do slave labor for someone else is unable to get one. Not that I'd want one necessarily but the point is those of us who have lots of experience with reptiles aren't likely going to run out and get king cobras or mambas and such where as those other guys do exactly that. I don't think hots should be totally unregulated I've seen some really stupid things at shows in pennsylvania and whichever Carolina does the hot shows(can't remember which one) but if it's too hard to get the permit people just won't get it and keep them quietly. It's a lot easier to hide a snake than it is a monkey or a tiger.

Yeah, I knew what your point was about the microchip, in general. And yeah, when it comes to doing so with me or my family (our physical bodies), it ain't happenin'. Notice how I avoided that issue by not even mentioning it. Ha! I did so out of respect for you & your beliefs, not knowing if you considered microchipping one's animal to be the equivalent.

There wasn't/isn't any connection between my religious beliefs and venomous laws, I was just stating who/what I am, which I thought was funny that the three of us are conservative Christians, and unashamed to say so. And for the record, I don't handle rattlesnakes as a show of Faith. I've got all the Faith in the world that I ain't livin' a righteous enough life to be takin' chances like that. Ha!

That reminds me, I was installing carpet in a guy's house up here that said he had done it several times. We were talking about my fancy for snakes, even rattlers, when he said, "If God don't tell you to do, don't do it."

I told him, "Don't worry, I won't." Hahaha!

Also, my Ruby Ridge joke had a very slight bit of truthful feelings because I myself, to an extent, don't like the government telling me what I can/can't do (taking away rights). I just wanted to make sure I had a place to go if I were down there when if/when it takes place. Hahaha!!! Ya'll are more than welcome to come up here as I've got plenty of woods as cushion, and even a few ridges. Hahaha!!!

> > > "It's a lot easier to hide a snake than it is a monkey or a tiger."

That's the exact same thing my wife told a friend of hers when she asked my wife why she married an ol' sneaky snake like me.

Ya'll take care!
Mike
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

I mean I do live in Paisley. haha. Quite I honestly I like it here for just that I'm on 5 wooded acres surrounded by more woods and if I win the lotto I'll buy the rest of it. (assuming I don't get sick of some of the ridiculousness going on and move back to south Texas.) On the lighter side of the ruby ridge thing I've got at least 2 neighbors and possibly a third who routinely fire off automatic weapons. Sometimes I wish if they were going to be "criminals" (govt.'s eyes not mine.) they would go all the way and get some silencers to haha. Oh yeah of course you can come and hide in my woods and I would consider your counter offer assuming we get some more of that "global warming". On a humorous side note about the snake handling thing. Several years back we went to the hot show in South Carolina (I think,I can't remember which one now as it was a few years back) We kind of laughed about the huge numbers of edb's timbers, copperheads etc. as compared to the northwestern berk's show in Penn. where almost everything is an exotic hot. Considering the location of the show and the types available my wife and I had a laugh about trying to guess who they're key customers were. To each their own but it was a little humorous. any way I gotta go hh my rats and mice are getting hungry and it's bug day as well later.

I've just got to ask....is that "over 4 inches in diameter" standard before they have fed or after they have had a recent meal????
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Gerald Keown
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research
www.southwesternherp.com