Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have what may be a really stupid question here.

I for the most part am a "monitor guy" but while I was in Daytona I picked up a few nifty snakes. I have had the occasional boa & burm that did pretty well to spite my ignorance back in the day. (No, no. I am still ignorant, just not as bad anymore.)

Why is it that monitors should have such a wide range of temps and snakes shouldn't? Seriously. I keep hotspots going all the way up in the 140-150f range with ambients in the low 80s and cool spots even down in the 70s. That seems to work pretty well with the monitors. Why is it that every snake care sheet suggests low 80s for ambient with high 80s to 90 for hot spots.

Don't the monitors & snakes have similar ranges if not the very same ones? Why would you not offer snakes the same temp range as monitors and let them choose?

Didn't mean to be so darn long winded, just up for some good conversation.

Later, Gene

Depends on what you keep. How often do you see a carpet python out basking in direct sunlight? Mine do not they simply sleep all day and up all night being nocturnal. I have offered this setup to my snakes but only a few of them seemed to be ok with it the rest hate the high temps. So basically being in Fl. I said fine and pulled all heat for them. Now this works for me cause they are more or less outdoors (sort of). They do what they are supposed to do which is eat, shed, breed, produce babies, etc..

I do not offer the same setup for my leopard gecko's as I do my monitors either. Nor do I for my bluetongues, or various other reptiles I keep.

The technical explanation would be for each habitat there is also another habitat within it. Such as one place may have the range of temps as your suggesting. But within that area there are smaller areas that meet different needs for one species. Haha somewhere in there is my answer I think just cant seem to spit it out. LOL

I kinda wondered about that myself. I've got a snake from the Sahara desert and he doesn't like it if the temp's above 95. Gravid sand boas can stand temps up to 110. But most snakes would keel over if the temp was above 100. But there are lots of lizards that like temps of 100 .

Hi Jody.

I have never seen an JCP basking in the sun. I know very little about them. I have no doubt that snakes can survive in high temps but have noticed they don't seem as at home in them as monitors. I don't set up all my animals enclosures based on monitors. I try to set them up like most successful people do and then tailor it to my animals individually.

I think I understand your answer, and the word microhabitat seems to sum it up pretty well. I was going to say niche but I don't think that is how you spell it LOL!!

Do snakes have ranges or territories in the wild? In such that it is a place they would defend against other snakes.

Later, Gene

Yes,they do get into battles when confronted by another snake. They do this in battles for a mate or if one has crossed it's boundry. They are like that of monitors or other reptiles in ways but different in others.

The can benefit from a wide temp gradient just don't plan on them spending time under a 160 degrees like your monitors. They prefer and use a lower temp gradient to go about things. But don't set your cage to 80 or anything and think oh that will work. Thats silly there is no need to do this they like monitors use what they need. If you offer them a wide range of temps they will adjust there own temps after all they are the masters at it and not us.

As for intelligence goes thats like talking to a cat or dog person on who has more brains. I'll pick the dog and monitor or lizard everytime but thats just me. It all depends on how you gauge ones intelect.

I got the drift and I agree with you on that one.

Thanks, Gene

I love watching snake battles during breeding season here. I find it so funny and fascinating at the same time. The way they curl around each other, roll around, and "wrestle". I have never seen one truly hurt or kill another usually after a little bit one gives up. Do they ever kill the loser?? Just wondering. One day I'll get a good pic of it.

The only snakes I see regularly are waters and garters. But they sure go at it a lot during breeding time. lol

Mike S.

Certain snakes can kill each other but typically they do not one backs off and they are on there way. When the killing happens it is typically cause one snake was out to eat the other anyways.

The rules do change in captivity if kept confined they can inflict serious wounds on each other. This is cause they can no longer symply leave the area and get away. This same thing happens to monitors.

Yea that's why I don't keep my snakes together. Don't want to take the risk. I would only put them together if breeding was the intention and after that back to separate cages. They don't seem like social animals like my monitors do. Thanks again for the info.

Mike S.

There's really no comparison between a snake and a lizard. Lizards, expecially monitors are better hands down. I think snakes appeal more to the type of women that like cats because they admire that cool calculated, independent behavior that they exhibit. That and a lot of women think that a snakes skin feels sexy. Im sure snakes also appeal to a lot of queer men for the same reason and because they want to hold something thats long and smooth. But yeah, lizards are more of a man's man reptile (lizards and crocodiles) I mean just look at that guy who is handling that komodo dragon, and people like steve irwin and such. They only mess around with cool snakes, like the poisonous ones. Poisonous snakes would be the only real exception. But real men don't like snakes! Real men dont want queer stuff like boas and pythons and corn snakes. I mean how can you trust something that doesn't have legs and just stays coiled up all the time. And it doesn't even have moveable eyelids. What kind of crap is that? You don't know if it's asleep or awake! And plus I'd rather have a monitor go berserk and bite and claw me than some crazy snake coiling itself around my damn neck. Snakes are just plain retarded! Oh yeah, monitors are way more intelligent. They actually do interesting stuff.
~Mark

"Snakes, I hate snakes!!"
--Indiana Jones (now there's a real man)

WOW

I think what most of us are missing here is the fact that a large number of snakes are Nocturnal.. and night time temps fall to within the 80 or 90 degree range in most places that have a hot daytime environment. Most of the snakes prey, in hot conditions, make appearences at dusk or in the mid of night or even in the early mornings before surface temps or air temps rise. So, where Monitors are Diurnal predators, snakes are nocturnal preditors and that is the biggest reason why their temps have to be lower than a Monitors. The other reason is Metabolism. A monitors Metabolism is much more efficient and fast than a snakes. They require high temps to digest properly where a snake's metabolism is slower and requires lesser temps to work at peak efficiency. In fact, raise a snakes temp too high and you'll have a sick animal.. Dehydrated and malnourished because their body is working faster and harder and burning more nutrients and fat.

Now take some of your venemous species.. aka Cobra's... Boomslangs, etc. Those that live in hotter areas.. Africa for example.. are daytime predators. And their metabolisms are faster. They have to eat more to keep their bodies in condition due to the fact they're regularly out in daytime temperatures and not curled up somewhere hiding in a cooler spot.

But just for the sake of argument why then would we (snake keepers) keep them at constant nocturnal temps? When we as monitor keepers can run day temps 24/7?

I gave a lot of thought to doing a day/night cycle and trying to simulate their natrual temp and light ranges with both monitors & snakes. I have not decided against it completely but this thought constantly rings out in my head.

These animals are in captivity. How can we even pretend to try to recreate natures variables both the optimum ones & the horrible harshness the animals have to endure. Our ignorance is punishment enough I think.

With people (Frank I am refering to you) keeping & breeding monitors, snakes, and now turtles using simple, available, and practical methods that by no means as far as I can tell even come close to duplicating nature. Why do we keep leaning that direction? I leave my monitors lights on 24/7. It works. I stopped using CHEs because they are too expensive, too hot, and you don't know if one goes out unless you touch it. I can buy a flood light for $5.00 and it works even better.

I am not questioning your logic. I think you are on to something actually. I have just been awake for far too long today .

What snakes if any are you keeping?

Later, Gene

I gene, I bred many kinds of snakes for a very look period. I had many of had the same results, multi-clutching, reaching maturity fast, etc. That I have had with monitors. In fact, I simply did the same things with monitors, that i did with snakes. I had world first breedings and such, just like with monitors.

The difference is in the range of the gradient. Snakes are more effiecent at conservation as such they require a slightly lower range.

The one major concern is behavior, monitors are more generalized in diet and habitat, yet are far more concerned about behavior.(as I am sure you have seen)

I talk to many snake keepers that are now reversing the monitor husbandry to fit snakes, the funny part, it started with snakes. Frank

More similiarities, no hibernation, no photoperiod, no concern with a varied diet. Rodents rule. we are now doing that with turtles. Lets see what happens.

Do you feed rodents to turtles? Do you cut them up first? I've only read one care sheet that recommended mice for turtles but it said you had to (ew) skin them.

Could you please explain the importance of care sheets? And How they should apply to me? F

Oh, no, I was just saying I hadn't heard it before except on that caresheet, so I'm very interested in the idea.

Actually I have experience with both natural and captives that dates decades. Also, my son is the one interested in turtles, so I bought him lots of books. Then I read the dang things. Of interest to us, was accounts of spotted and wood turtles. With the spotteds, theres all the normal turtle food stuffs, plants, algae, crawdads, fish, tadpoles, insects and a duck. I hope them spotteds did not kill dat duck. (juston wilson)

I have ponds outside,(14 years) we have RES's in there and some maps, cooters of some sort. Funny thing, if we do not feed them enough, they stock, kill and eat, doves. They learned this on their own.

With these things in mind, whats wrong with rodents, pinkies for babies, and larger for larger turtles. I hate to tell you, but once a found a red footed tort out in the forest, eating a box turtle. It was nose to nose, except the red foot, was inside the box, ewwwwwwww.

About caresheets, If I knew nothing, then they just may be of help(thats debateable) But I understand reptiles a little. So I perfer to listen to them.

I find and have found, that listening to the animals is best for me. So I do. Thats my gift and my curse. F

Your curse................please.

If ever you start teaching "reptile reading 101" sign me up. I think it's a curse I could live with. And I want a signed & numbered copy of the book.

There is a pic of the day on Varanus, maybe we should start something like Quote of the day too. It could be funny or just a neat tip to ponder for awhile.

Later, Gene

Hi,

Sorry to butt in here, but I've been feeding thawed pinkies and fuzzy mice to my spotted turtles since I received them several years ago. The mice make up about 50% of their diet. The turtles love them and do very well on them. I don't do anything with the mice other than thaw them. Even with very little vitamin/mineral supplimentation, the spotties breed and lay fertile eggs every year. In fact my original female is double clutching for the first time this summer, she is due to lay any day now.

Will Still

Hi Frank.

I had read/heard of your success with snakes before. Even that you were a python guy for a long time.

I knew snakes metabolize slower. In fact that is something that shocked me when I first got into monitors. I had always heard that reptiles were slow growers & slow to metabolize their food. I had also heard how long snakes could go with out eating. So you can imagine my surprize when I found out how much monitors can eat and grow in a few months time.

I understand that the range of temps can be lower due to a snakes conservation abilities but would they not still fair better with a broader range of choices? I know I have to do a lot of the leg work myself but would a wider range not cover all the bases?

Another point of intrest. I have always thought of monitors as thinking animals were as I have never seen that in snakes. Are they less intelligent, more instinct driven, or simply indifferent. I have no doubt Yoshi can distinguish me from other people. His behavior changes when others are present. I have never seen or heard of such in snakes.

I am not 100% sure I understand your statement regarding monitor behavior. How are monitors more concerned about behavior?

I have been watching yours & your grandson's turtle progress. My wife is very fond of turtles & torts. I have been considering something like them for her. When ever she gets off her beardie kick.

See ya, Gene

I do not see snakes growing slower then monitors. First that depends on who what where when, type of think. For me, they all grow the same.

A little over a month ago, I bought a pair of baby hognoses snakes, one actually hatched at the show. In the past month they have doubled their lenght and are four types the mass(weight). Our turtles, have done the same. I keep promising to post a pic, but I hate to mess with them. But the second clutch is many times the third clutch and only 22 days older. Ones from the second clutch have caught and surpassed the first clutch. Whatever, they are growing at rates that will rival that of monitors growth.

Snakes are handy because you can actually run a happy medium and achieve a decidingly average result. This is good for mass breeders, they like, need control. But the average person should allow the animals to achieve their capabilities. That is one reason I got out of snakes, the advent of shoeboxes and racks. F

I guess I did say that didn't I. My snakes grew slower than my monitors do now. Mainly due to my inferior husbandry at the time. I won't say I didn't have one bad animal but I was just to dumb to see it at the time.

Hognose!! How cool is that? I bet they are neat little critters. I have always liked them but never owned any.

I also didn't realize you were already on your 3rd clutch of turtle eggs. Nice job!!

I can see that about you. Not wanting to keep snakes in shoeboxes & racks. I can afford my snakes good size cages & still keep them smaller than a monitors cage. I hope they do achieve their capabibities. Do you have any other snakes besides the hognose? Any favorites you are still drawn to?

I just picked up a really pretty pair of Dumerils boas. I have always admired them from a far but these two just wow-ed me so I got them. I like their managable size & easy going temperment too. Now if I can only get a pair of Dum-monitors

Gene

I dislike them too. They are so small and there is not much room for the snakes. I keep my snakes in Neodesha cages and visions. I only keep a few corns and a few others. No breeding with the corns there are to many of them already. I really want a pair of green anacondas but the females get way to big. Maybe sometime in the future when I have more room.

Congrats on the dumerils boas. They are so neat looking with that wild pattern.

Good luck on the dumerils monitors too. I'm having trouble finding some also. I have not seen babies from anyone in a while. I asked Robyn about them and he told me it doesn't look to good for this year. I can’t find anyone else with them either.

Mike S.

Hey Mike.

I love anacondas. I also picked up a green at the show. There is both joy & tragedy in that though. He is a little male, very pretty animal. I will get some pics after I get him settled in. He has an incredibly docile attitude which surprised me. The tragedy is in that he cost well under $100.00. Which means any kid with a little dough can buy the biggest snake in the world and we all know what that can lead to.

Any way. He is a pet. I don't think I will ever try to breed the giant beasts. There doesn't seem like much reason to. You can't sell them for much with prices that low, it would cost more to house them & feed them that it would be worth. Not to mention the obvious danger to both my family & animals of having a large female around.

I am holding my breath on the Dum's monitors. I talked to Robyn too at Daytona. I hope RSG or Frank have some luck with theirs in the next year or so because I am holding our for CB.

Later, Gene