Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have been seeing this add for well over a year now. I must say it is creative to say the least but this statement really made me cringe:

'They are the product of select breeding.
I took 2 "laid back" female yacare. and bred them to a incredable tame male spectacled caimen. To produce some of the best looking, "laidback/tame" These will eat out of my hand and come when called caimen around.

Much like man domesticated the wild dogs by breeding the most tame animals. I am doing the same with the caimen. '

The bottom part in particualar is disturbing

Is that really how dogs were domesticated? I wasn't around so I can't say.

I agree, using that slogan simply to makes sales is disturbing. I've dealt with Mitch before and he's a good guy and I don't doubt he's been selective in which animals he's bred, BUT, trying to say that you are breeding ANY croc to make it suitable as a "pet" is assinine; buying one BECAUSE SOMEONE TELLS YOU THEY ARE TAME is even more iditiotic! They plain and simply are NOT dog tame-no croc is. Actually, they are more like cats---they don't want human companionship---except when they are hungry, LOL!!!!

This is also why I get irritated seeing the "fly-by-night" reptile dealers posting the same animals every other day in the classifieds because they are DESPARATE TO MOVE ANIMALS AND MAKE A BUCK! Some instances like this, make me wish the reptile trade was entirely shut down. The animals to these people, are just dollars, nothing else.

We had another discussion reg."tame"crocs some weeks ago. You´re right, Matt, and: Let´s stop all these criss-cross breedings!

Ralf

They did a similar experiment in foxes. They got tame pet foxes... ... ... in 40 generations. There were also morphological differences associated with the selective breeding. The whole reason I have reptiles is because they're NOT a manmade creation.

I'm still wondering how the full grown offspring are half the size of the full grown parents. Do caiman become full grown in three years anyway?!? I don't think so... Also a cold blooded creature that can survive in freezing conditions with no ill effects is either a miracle or a hoax... Just my take on the subject.
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All that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream.

There are a few snakes that can be active in quite cold temperatures. Some live above the Arctic circle and are active while there's still snow on the ground.
No crocs though. There's a reason there aren't any alligators in Ohio.

i have heard of american alligators being able to survive in freezing conditions but i still don't think the 'diamond caiman' could but maybe close i don't know

just my thoughts on the subject

k

Keyword, "surviving", not living. The ad for the caiman has been changed recently and some of the info from the first has been changed and left out. The first ad for these caiman stated that they were capable of living in below freezing temps without any problems. If I housed one of these in a working freezer I don't think it would survive a week, let alone live a full healthy life... I also think it's odd that a man would take the time (seven years he says) to selectively breed an animal and then try to kill it by freezing it, just to see if it could be done.
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All that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream.

When I visited especially American reptile expos, I found more selected bred snakes in many colorations than natural forms.I really hate seeing this and I hate the idea of selected cross bred caimen also.Look at the rainbow boa ( Epicrates cenchri maurus): Its nearly impossible today to get a pure maurus in the pet trade. They are cross-bred with non-identified E.c.crassus and other subspecies. Breeding nile crocs, only a few breeders take care for the subspecies, the same in caimen....
We should be careful...

Ralf

The tame foxes are Russian silver foxes that came out of a breeding program for fur production. All of the tame foxes are lineally descended from one female fox that possessed a genetic mutation that "locked" her into the juvenile brain chemistry state. No amount of "selective" breeding would have resulted in tame foxes without this particular mutation being present in the breeding stock.

American alligators definitely display a difference between juvenile and adult brain chemistry ...try to get a yearling to bite you vs. getting a 2 or 3 year old to bite you. Is it possible that an alligator could possess a genetic mutation that locked it into juvenile brain chemistry ... yes I believe so. How likely is it? I believe the fox farm produced over 40,000 foxes or so before it produced the one with the mutation ... you do the math.

I had read about a fur farm study... but I recently read an article that made it sound like they were doing pet breeding on purpose... I'm sure I'll think of where I saw it... But now I'm thinking they misinterpreted the original fur farm study.

Whether or not statistical probability exists for any type of genetic "mutation" to be thrown in any given crocodilian population "locking" in brain chemistry as a juvenile vs. adult is not the point I believe is trying to be made.
Producing genetically worthless animals as far as the species are concerened is dangerous at least. As regulations tighten, and crocodilian taxa become harder to obtain in the private sector, will we all be stuck with unclean lineage?
Crossing an appendix 1 species with appendix2 species just for commercial transit across state/country borders is a practice that should be at the very least vociforously disented upon from within our own ranks.