Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey,
When I was lying in bed this morning trying to tell myself that although I had to get up, if I just ignored this fact I wouldn't really have to, I started thinking about the "get 'em fat" mentality with boas. My thoughts went to 4 main points:

1) Females raised too quickly tend to deliver more slugs based on what I've read and seen on this forum.

2) Obese females tend to deliver more slugs.

3) The zucker rats (for those that don't know, they are EXTREMELY high in fat content) cause smelly stool, regurge, discoloration and scale loss after shedding, and even death.

4) In the wild, there are probably very few "fat" prey items because in nature (and especially in a climate where there's no REAL winter season and therefore no need for hibernation) a fat animal is NOT a healthy animal.

So based on evidence that raising too quickly and/or being fat leads to poor fertility rates, eating fat can at worst cause death, and naturally they don't come across fat prey items, I have to ask why the mentality that "getting them fat" still exists?

Is it that old ideas die hard? Is it that so many people keep boas AND pythons and "fat" seems to work for some of the larger pythons? Is it that I'm missing evidence to support the idea of "feed 'em to breed 'em"? Or is it that our portion of the hobby (boas, and most others) are dominated by morphs and such large amounts of money are invested and the need to recoup that investment quickly, typically outweighs the negative possibility of death or debilitation? The idea that a litter half full of slugs is ok because the other half will return your investment and put you one step closer to producing a "super" form, etc.. Now, I'm not knocking people who produce slugs (I've done it), there are many causes that don't always include overfeeding, but there are clearly links to overfeeding and slugs.

So, what does everyone think? Is there evidence out there to show that very frequent large meals either containing high amounts of fat, or leading to a high amount of fat in the boa is a good thing? Or is it time to, as a group, rewrite the standards for feeding and raising these animals, regardless of subspecies?

Let me know your thoughts.

jb
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Jonathan Brady
"Sarcasm is angers ugly cousin" -Dr. Buddy Rydell (Jack Nicholson) in "Anger Management".

Good morning! Nothing like a cup of coffee and a quick Reptile discussion to start the day! Jonathan, this subject has probably been debated since the first few Boas were ever bred in captivity. I wish I could come up with some " Genius Figures and Percentages " for you and say things to make me look " So Well Educated " but as usuall " I Will Give Some Common Sense Opinions " on this. You will hear Breeders go all over the Boaord with varying opinions on this. Some will claim how a female needs to have good weight in order to breed and some will claim that it is easier to keep females slightly overweight throughout the year and on and on. In my experiance, it takes time to understand " what is the point of no return " what is the line between " good weight " and " too much weight. " Females who are raised quickly and left on the line or over the line most of the year toward a more obese state, can actually produce at least some viable litters, but there overall production throughout it's life seems to be cut way short and their life itself, is usually cut short. Females who are kept noticeably obese throughout the year and throughout their lives, have very few, if any babies and their lives are usually over around 8yrs of age on average. Ever notice that their are two types of Boas in captivity? There are the Boas who are someones pet and are fed very sparingly, because " usually out of ignorance " the keeper wants to keep it in a 40 gallon aquarium all of it's life and dreams of passing it down one day to their kids. Well, " out of this ignorance works the better toward the Boas benefit. " This is usually the type of Boa that gets fed a live rat once a month from a local Pet Store and you run into the guy by chance at the Pet Store while you are buying Aspen Shavings and he tells you about his Pet Boa named " Lucifer " that he has had for 20yrs!! Ya, we have all ran into those guys. Then there is the second type of Boa. This Boa is an animal who's destiny is to be thrown into a rack system with dozens or hundreds more and have a frozen thawed rat " maybe two or three or more " thrown to it every week and raised quickly so that it may breed sooner and make it's keeper some extra " beer and minow money. " This Boa, serves it's purpose " maybe " to the Breeder and somewere between the age of 8 and 10, it just suddenly dies for no reason " at least in the breeders mind. " Well, the second Boa may describe the way Locality Boas are raised by a number of Breeders and Keepers, so actually; " there is a third type Boa. " This is the " Morph Boa " and this is an Boa that is raised to maturity in less than 3yrs " sometimes less than 2 " and by the time it is 6ft long, it has so much disturbing fat on it, that I cannot even hardly stand to look at them, because it causes me intense sadness. These Boas " in the Breeders mind " and because of " The Market " have to be raised fast, so that the breeder can get a return on their investment, before the bottom drops out of whatever Morph they are working with. Wow! Poor old snakes. So, what is the most COMMON SENSE thing to do, in order to know to a greater extent " what the proper size is for productivity and longevity? Look at a " HEALTHY " Import that comes in, " In Good Shape " and get it's length and get it's weight and that will tell you all that you need to know! I bought a Peruvian from a guy years ago, she was a little better than 9 1/2 feet long and her weight was right at 80 pounds! She never bred and at the age of 7yrs, she was found dead and never showed a symptom. I had an 11ft Guyana from the wild "she came out of the wild at 11ft " and weighed a wopping 38 pounds! She was a solid piece of muscle and was a very strong and long lived and productive Boa. I could give countless other examples, but you get the point. Look at a healthy Import fresh from the wild " not one that is in bad shape " and that will give you a size and weight to judge your captive standards by..........John

The best time of the year to get a weight on an adult female Import, is in late Spring and early summer. At this time, they have put on the " proper weght " in the wild that they need in order to reproduce and are actually " general rule " breeding at that point.........John

Good discussion. I would like to see some data from some of the older keepers. Those who have had the same boa for 20 years. How it was raised, what kind it is. Reproductive history, success rate, etc. And if they had other boas that were raised differently that didn't live long, and what necropsies showed.
Though I don't know how many actually have this data, nor how many would publish it.

What I have seen in my boas and those of others is that breeder boas that are leaner tend not to lose noticeable weight during breeding and not eating.

Females with large girth prior to breeding seem to look emaciated after birth. Females that are more proportional in size and shape before breeding look relatively the same after birth.

My 5ft. long 3.5 year old male Costa Rican. Weighs about 2.5 lbs, and is about an inch and a half measured across his back. Eats one medium rat every 3 weeks. Immensely strong.

Boas should generally speaking have a rectangular shaped body. There are some exceptions depending on subspecies and locale. Body shape will vary slightly. Amarali for example are a little more rounded. Male 3 years old in picture.

One group of boas that seem to have a more round look are Hypos. Especially adult females. They seem to have a more deflated look when resting. Such as can be seen in the example below. However when moving she still has a square body shape. This one is nearing 4 years old (next month) and is 7 feet and 17 lbs.

Boas that have fat rings on their tails are at the extreme end of the spectrum. Fat females and the negatives of breeding were touched on. Males are also not as great breeders when fat. They tend not to have as much endurance. My tiny Sonoran Leopard male is just shy of 4', weighs a little over a pound, and is on his second female. He hasn't eaten since the last weekend in September, and still is in top shape.
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Gilbert Boas
The Boa List!

If anyone has seen the pictures that Gus Rentfro occasionally posts on various boards of adult females, they are what I would consider perfect. And I believe his consistent breeding results, and low to non-existent slug count will serve as proof.

If there was any one person who seems to have perfected raising boas and breeding them, I would say it is Gus. He noticed the differences among subspecies and locales. Takes his time with them, and has near perfect breeding results.

I know he had a Belem Brazilian BCC that bred for many consecutive years with perfect results. I don't know of many others who have gotten any female to produce year after year for many years without issues, much less BCC, and with near if not perfect results. By perfect results I mean lack of slugs.

And I believe last year was his first time breeding Amarali, again perfect litter. I know more than a few breeders who have great success with BCI, but have yet to get Amarali to reproduce.
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Gilbert Boas
The Boa List!

Gus, is definately " The Man. " Nobody on the Planet has the success with Locality Boas that Rentfro does and his production rates speek for themselves. Like him or not " I think the world of him " if you want what the man next door has, do what the man next door does! I had the priveledge a few years ago to go to Gus's facility and what I seen was a Polar Opposite of what I have seen in my visits over the years to other facilities. Perfect Boas that were boxed off and muscular " some mean as hell " but all of them desiring to do one thing; " breed. " The results, say it all............John

I agree. I follow the information as outlined on Gus's website and in "The complete Boa Constrictor" by Vin Russo. It works great, saves me money on rats, and my boas seem more healthy and active. I think they are even more colorful due to less stress. My last two litters were 20 babies and two slugs, and 23 babies and zero slugs! I was going to give the female who had 20 babies the year off but I looked in her cage during breeding season and she was all swollen up so I put a male in with her. She is gravid again and looks good so far. Here is a photo of the other female when I removed her from the cage to clean up and collect the litter. She looks almost ready to breed!

Good post!

Steve

Beyond the points that have already been made...

It seems to me that it's all about showing off for a lot of people. They LOVE the fact that their boa is HUGE because they get reactions from people. As if the boa's size is somehow related to it's owners' "coolness" or "badass" factor...or something to that effect.

If you give any snake or reptile the temperatures it needs, their is no way to make them "fat", even if fed lard on a daily basis. The metabolisms on these animals are really misunderstood; Ever see a Boa bask at 130 degrees? I have; they use the high temperatures when needed ( Digestion, absorption, parasite cleansing, etc ), but most people don't go over 90? Even at 100 degrees, thier metabolisms are barely moving. I started keeping varanids, and applied that to my snakes. In doing that, I have seen so many behavoirs that have really changed my mind about captive husbandry. Once you've seen the difference, it's actually quite sad seeing any Boa or Python that looks like a deflated tire.

Eric,
Thanks for your insight into the role of temperatures in boa husbandry. I'd really like some more info from you, perhaps, examples of the things you mentioned.
One thing I've always been cautious of with boas is regurg due to temperatures being too high. Have you had any experience with that? Do you provide a basking spot of 130 degrees all the time? Does this not burn them? How large are your cages and what are the cool spot temps?
What benefits do high temperatures provide with regards to parasite cleansing?
Also, where do temperatures with regards to gravid females come in to play? Breeder males?
Thanks for your candid response. It's certainly contrary to what is known and practiced by most people and is definitely intriguiging. I'm not sure I'll pick it up any time soon but I do like hearing differing opinions and evidence!
jb
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Jonathan Brady
"Sarcasm is angers ugly cousin" -Dr. Buddy Rydell (Jack Nicholson) in "Anger Management".

We have all in one instance or another, had different things that we have tried " as your warmer temperature scenario " but in the end; " No matter how many things you try, that seem to make since and maybe even seem to show a benefit, in the end it will always be nature that shows us the error of our ways. " I will never forget, being at Strictly Reptiles over 15yrs ago and seeing a Suriname Boa come in that had a wopping weight of 3 pounds and was 4ft long and she had 17 perfect babies. Go figure?.......John

Thanks, Eric!
GREAT post. I appreciate your candor as well. It seems that we can get so locked into the popular theory of the day that we forget that there's more than one right way to do things. Two people that most of us respect BOTH have great results but do things VERY differently. One feeds year round and right through breeding, one only 3-6 months a year. One never has temps over the low 80s, one uses 86 as their LOW END temp in the summer. One uses temp cycles for the seasons and one doesn’t at all.
I haven't used 130, but I definitely keep my boas warmer than many people that post here. I find regurges with the BCC when dropped too low into the 80s. I often find them hugging the warm side when it’s 100-and I mean as far to the warm side as they can!
Thanks again, Eric!
Also, I wonder if the “feed to breed” strategy comes with another artifact that may be contaminating our analysis. Often, the people that feed like this not only breed the boas very young, but breed them repeatedly 2 or 3 years in a row. That is, if they breed a female at 2.5 years old successfully, I think a lot of them will breed her again the next year. That way, the snake has had 2 litters and is only 4 years old. I know 2 years on and 1 year off is the practice, but wonder if it might be too hard on a young female in the long run.

Not being argumentative at all; " keepers are going to raise their Boas as they want to. " However, look at the Boas and Reptiles that have had the record lifespans in captivity and when you research them further, you will find that every one of them had one thing in common and I mean " every one of them. " They were all fed on a very and I mean very sparing basis. It is all in what you want for your Boas. The fasting period and low fat verses muscle, is probably a major contributing factor to the longevity in all animals " including mammals. " Our ancestors " especially wise men of ancient tribes, " would fast for long periods of time in order to cleanse themselves to be able to communicate on a higher spiritual plain and also have longer lives. I guess in this Fast Food and gluttinous world, we seem to think that everything benefits from plenty of available food. The higher temperature scenario, is nothing new. My dear friend " Eugene Bessette, " use to offer 115-120 degree basking spots for even Argentine Boas. I have also used these hotter than the norm temperatures for several Species and Localities of Boas and in the end " too much food and too much weight, KILLS! " It is that simple and it can be argued till the end of time, but anybody that does not believe it, I only have one question for you; " How many 30-40 year old Boas do you have? " I know; " You are not old enough to have any Boas that old or have not been in the Hobby long enough to have Boas that old. " Well, call me in 20yrs and feel free to argue..........John

After reading through this thread I had one question. We notice a decrease in sperm motility/longevity when in high heat in mammals, what about boas or other snakes? Any of you doing the high-heat thing notice anything different with the males other than the positive effect on weight?