Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey Y'all!!!!!
I'm not trying to get anybodies' panties in a wad, but I'm curious if there are pure Reversed Okeetees out there or do all have some emory in their background?????? Inquiring minds would like to know!!!!!
Shalom,

Pat

Pat:

Long, long ago, (1973) in a land far, far-away (Kansas) a budding, young snake lover decided he was tired of just catching and keeping snakes, and decided to keep several of them together in a 55 gallon aquarium. That summer, two of the four different rat snakes that shared that cage secretely got married. He didn't realize it until one day when he walked past the aquarium to see the black rat laying eggs. He called around (no Internet) and after speaking to several people, one of them recommended that he dampen some paper towels and incubate those eggs in a warm place. He set up 1/3 of the clutch in one of his wife's Corningware dishes and wrapped cellophane over the top and secured it with a rubber band. A second Corningware bowl became the temporary home for another 1/3 of the eggs, and the remaining 1/3 of those eggs was placed on damp paper towels inside a gallon glass jar and sealed with cellophane. Since no-one he spoke to would tell him the temperature that would be safe for incubation, one jar was set atop a cage in the air-conditioned attic of his home, where most of his reptiles were housed. Another was set on a shelf in the garage, and the last one in the living room. None of those embryos died and one day, out in the hot garage, a slight movement caught his peripheral vision. Yup. Three snakes were slithering around in the jar. They were silver with darker gray markings. They later developed yellow necks and heads and it was decided that the yellow rat was Dad. It appeared that damp paper towels and heat (quite a bit of it) seemed to be the recipe for hatching rat snake eggs. BTW, the other snakes in that 55-gal were gray and red rats. Later, it was determined that the black rat was the only female and don't ask why all the babies looked the same. Shrug?
NOTE: Paper towels are not a good incubation medium and most people now use vermiculite, perlite, or a combination of the two.

In 1977, he worked hard to buy his first amel red rat (corn) - a great deal for $200.00 because it would not eat. Yup, it died of starvation. but that did not deter him. He worked hard in the restaurant business, and along with some coins he earned from catching lizards in western deserts (NO, not gilas), he ponied up for a pair of "Okeetee" corns that were het for albino. That was 1978. A few years and a few generations later, he noticed that some of his albinos had very wide white margins and the colors in them were saturated and contrasting. He didn't know what to call them, so he sold them to local pet stores in Wichita as albino corns. Not long after that (before the Internet), he heard about a lady that bred lots of different colors of corns. Her name was Kathy and she and her husband co-owned Glades Herp in Florida. He called her and ordered one of her price lists, which she "snail" mailed to him. On this list, were albinos like low-whites, no-whites, candy canes and reverse Okeetees. Along with a friend, he ended up with one of the reverse Okeetees and it was virtually identical to his albino Okeetees with the wide white margins. He therefore deduced that the ones he was producing in Kansas were reverse Okeetees. It wasn't until later he learned that part of the recipe for Kathy's animals included Emory's (great plains) rat snakes. He never bred Kathy's animals into that line and never bothered to change the name of his line. They're still called reverse Okeetees on his web site and I'm certain they're pure corns. Those original breeders had never been near an Emory's rat and some of the corns that were bred into that line in the 70s and 80s were captured on Okeetee Hunt Club property.

As many of you know, Rich Z. was working on the same projects. So people didn't confuse his pure corns with hybrids (then, they were called intergrades), he called his fluorescent orange corns and through natural selection there at Serpenco, he created and maintained a look that was unlike the reverse Okeetees in the market and made from PURE corns. In just one generation of crossing Rich's fluorescents to my reverse Okeetees, I produced animals like both parents, and some in-between.

Hence, I don't know what others are doing out there, and I DO have SOME reverse Okeetee lines here that are the result of introducing specimens I purchased here and there, but I can tell you that most (if not all) my reverse Okeetees are related to those first Okeetees I bought back in the 70s.

Don
South Mountain Reptiles

huh, wow, thanks for the story!

It is true that Rich started the fluorescent line because he THOUGHT the reverse / albino okeetee lines I started had emoryi in them. It was only much later that he discussed it with me, and I let him know that it is my CANDYCANE lines, not the reverse okeetee, that may have some small amount of emoryi due to a couple of light backgrounded creamsicles that were used in the foundation back the late '80s (sure must only be a few drops of that emoryi left by now, since no more creams were added in since at least 1990, as far as I can remember). By that time, his lines were already firmly established, so he had no reason to change.

My albino / reverse okeetee line started mainly with some albino corns I got from Mike Krick back in the early '80s. At that time, there were no special kinds of amels - they were just amels. But Mike's had really wide, white borders, and beautiful dark red blotches. We were breeding A LOT of "plain ol' albinos" for the wholesale pet trade at the time, so we started breeding progeny from his line to other albino corns that also had wide white borders. Just prior to that, we had started pulling aside babies that had "no-white" patterns (those later became known as sunglows), but hadn't yet quite started the candycane project. We noticed that the wide bordered corns looked kind of like we would expect an okeetee to look like if it had no black, and we needed to call them something. So we had the idea to call them reverse okeetees, also known as albino okeetees. We didn't realize at the time how confusing it would be to people, since we had no idea if these snakes had even a drop of okeetee blood in them. But that is how they looked, and the name stuck. But I don't think we had any creamsicles yet at that time of development for this morph. Creamsicles were new and expensive back then, so I have no reason to suspect that any of the albino corns we got from various sources would be anything other than pure corn.

I got my first creamsicles from Kevin Enge at Hogtown in Gainesville, Florida. By then, we already had no-white (sunglow) corns and reverse okeetees. Some of the first creamsicles we obtained had very light backgrounds. We happened to have a female albino corn with a very light background, so bred it, the light creams, and a couple of reverse okeetees with a very light background together for a few years. We added in a Miami phase or two with little or no orange in the background. That group became the foundation for our candycane line. Then over the years refined it, adding other corns as needed. But as far as I remember, we never added candycane to alb. okeetees, only the candycanes got the dose of creams, along with other founding stock. And the fact that alb. okeetees were added to candycanes (but no candycanes were added to the alb. okeetee projects) seems to have caused the confusion about what is pure and what is not.

However, unless you can trace a line's ancestry back to the wild, there is no way to guarantee any line is "pure" (and there is a slight chance of "contamination" even from the wild!) Back in the '80s, albino corns were much more readily available than creams, so I have no reason to believe that the original albinos had cream in them. But I can't trace them back to the wild, so that is about as sure as I can be about the whole origin & history of albino /reverse okeetees and candycanes in my lines.

- - - - It is true that Rich started the fluorescent line because he THOUGHT the reverse / albino okeetee lines I started had emoryi in them. It was only much later that he discussed it with me, and I let him know that it is my CANDYCANE lines, not the reverse okeetee, that may have some small amount of emoryi due to a couple of light backgrounded creamsicles that were used in the foundation back the late '80s (sure must only be a few drops of that emoryi left by now, since no more creams were added in since at least 1990, as far as I can remember). By that time, his lines were already firmly established, so he had no reason to change. - - - -
KATHY, I OBVIOUSLY HAVE MY TIMELINE SKEWED AND SURELY THE STORY HAS BEEN TOLD SO MANY TIMES, IT'S CHANGED. LOL YOU'RE SURELY CORRECT THAT HIS LINE WAS NAMED BEFORE HE THOUGHT YOUR'S HAD EMORY'S BLOOD IN THEM. SORRY IF I MISQUOTED THERE.

- - - - My albino / reverse okeetee line started mainly with some albino corns I got from Mike Krick back in the early '80s. At that time, there were no special kinds of amels - they were just amels. But Mike's had really wide, white borders, and beautiful dark red blotches. We were breeding A LOT of "plain ol' albinos" for the wholesale pet trade at the time, so we started breeding progeny from his line to other albino corns that also had wide white borders. Just prior to that, we had started pulling aside babies that had "no-white" patterns (those later became known as sunglows), but hadn't yet quite started the candycane project. We noticed that the wide bordered corns looked kind of like we would expect an okeetee to look like if it had no black, and we needed to call them something. So we had the idea to call them reverse okeetees, also known as albino okeetees. We didn't realize at the time how confusing it would be to people, since we had no idea if these snakes had even a drop of okeetee blood in them. But that is how they looked, and the name stuck. But I don't think we had any creamsicles yet at that time of development for this morph. Creamsicles were new and expensive back then, so I have no reason to suspect that any of the albino corns we got from various sources would be anything other than pure corn. - - - -
COOL. THANKS FOR THE HISTORY. I SAW MY FIRST CREAMSICLES IN TUCSON WHEN JOHN MARTIN BRED ALBINO CORNS TO EMORY'S. HE GOT THE ALBINO CORNS IN THE EARLY 80S (MAYBE LATE 70S) FROM ERNIE WAGNER. TRADED A MEX MEX SOMEONE CAUGHT IN TUCSON FOR THEM. HE REPORTED TO ME THAT THE F2S WERE FADED, UGLY ALBINOS AND HE DROPPED THE PROJECT. OF COURSE, THEY LATER BECAME KNOWN AS CREAMSICLES.

- - - - I got my first creamsicles from Kevin Enge at Hogtown in Gainesville, Florida. By then, we already had no-white (sunglow) corns and reverse okeetees. Some of the first creamsicles we obtained had very light backgrounds. We happened to have a female albino corn with a very light background, so bred it, the light creams, and a couple of reverse okeetees with a very light background together for a few years. We added in a Miami phase or two with little or no orange in the background. That group became the foundation for our candycane line. Then over the years refined it, adding other corns as needed. But as far as I remember, we never added candycane to alb. okeetees, only the candycanes got the dose of creams, along with other founding stock. And the fact that alb. okeetees were added to candycanes (but no candycanes were added to the alb. okeetee projects) seems to have caused the confusion about what is pure and what is not. - - - -
GOOD THING WE'RE STOPPING THAT OLD RUMOR THAT PROMPTED PAT TO ASK HIS QUESTION IN THIS THREAD. : )

- - - - However, unless you can trace a line's ancestry back to the wild, there is no way to guarantee any line is "pure" (and there is a slight chance of "contamination" even from the wild!) Back in the '80s, albino corns were much more readily available than creams, so I have no reason to believe that the original albinos had cream in them. But I can't trace them back to the wild, so that is about as sure as I can be about the whole origin & history of albino /reverse okeetees and candycanes in my lines. - - - -
I AGREE WITH YOU. CORN KEEPERS TODAY CANNOT IMAGINE A TIME WHEN A MORPH LIKE AMEL WAS RARE. FEW IF ANY BREEDERS THOUGHT OF CROSSING THEM WITH EMORY'S (THEN SOMETIMES REFERRED TO AS WESTERN CORNS) AND UNTIL JOHN DID THAT IN THE LATE 70S/EARLY 80S, I'D NEVER HEARD OF ANYONE DOING IT. THERE WAS TOO MUCH MONEY TO BE MADE IN THE PURE ALBINO CORNS TO MESS WITH CROSSING THEM. HENCE, I AGREE WITH YOU THAT UNLESS SOMEONE WAS FRANKENSNAKING WAY BACK THEN WITHOUT TELLING, IT IS DOUBTFUL THE EMORY'S BLOOD FLOWED IN THOSE SNAKES. LOOKS LIKE WE JUST STAMPED OUT ANOTHER RUMOR FIRE. THANKS FOR SQUELCHING THE IDEA THAT EMORY'S BLOOD IS IN THE REVERSE OKEETEES.

DON
South Mountain Reptiles

>>HE REPORTED TO ME THAT THE F2S WERE FADED, UGLY ALBINOS AND HE DROPPED THE PROJECT.

Hey, that is STILL a good description of them.......lol.
KJ
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KJUN Snakehaven

>>It is true that Rich started the fluorescent line because he THOUGHT the reverse / albino okeetee lines I started had emoryi in them. It was only much later that he discussed it with me, and I let him know that it is my CANDYCANE lines, not the reverse okeetee, that may have some small amount of emoryi due to a couple of light backgrounded creamsicles that were used in the foundation back the late '80s (sure must only be a few drops of that emoryi left by now, since no more creams were added in since at least 1990, as far as I can remember). By that time, his lines were already firmly established, so he had no reason to change.
>>
>>My albino / reverse okeetee line started mainly with some albino corns I got from Mike Krick back in the early '80s. At that time, there were no special kinds of amels - they were just amels. But Mike's had really wide, white borders, and beautiful dark red blotches. We were breeding A LOT of "plain ol' albinos" for the wholesale pet trade at the time, so we started breeding progeny from his line to other albino corns that also had wide white borders. Just prior to that, we had started pulling aside babies that had "no-white" patterns (those later became known as sunglows), but hadn't yet quite started the candycane project. We noticed that the wide bordered corns looked kind of like we would expect an okeetee to look like if it had no black, and we needed to call them something. So we had the idea to call them reverse okeetees, also known as albino okeetees. We didn't realize at the time how confusing it would be to people, since we had no idea if these snakes had even a drop of okeetee blood in them. But that is how they looked, and the name stuck. But I don't think we had any creamsicles yet at that time of development for this morph. Creamsicles were new and expensive back then, so I have no reason to suspect that any of the albino corns we got from various sources would be anything other than pure corn.
>>
>>I got my first creamsicles from Kevin Enge at Hogtown in Gainesville, Florida. By then, we already had no-white (sunglow) corns and reverse okeetees. Some of the first creamsicles we obtained had very light backgrounds. We happened to have a female albino corn with a very light background, so bred it, the light creams, and a couple of reverse okeetees with a very light background together for a few years. We added in a Miami phase or two with little or no orange in the background. That group became the foundation for our candycane line. Then over the years refined it, adding other corns as needed. But as far as I remember, we never added candycane to alb. okeetees, only the candycanes got the dose of creams, along with other founding stock. And the fact that alb. okeetees were added to candycanes (but no candycanes were added to the alb. okeetee projects) seems to have caused the confusion about what is pure and what is not.
>>
>>However, unless you can trace a line's ancestry back to the wild, there is no way to guarantee any line is "pure" (and there is a slight chance of "contamination" even from the wild!) Back in the '80s, albino corns were much more readily available than creams, so I have no reason to believe that the original albinos had cream in them. But I can't trace them back to the wild, so that is about as sure as I can be about the whole origin & history of albino /reverse okeetees and candycanes in my lines.
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KJUN Snakehaven

Hey Kathy:

I BET I know where Don (and Rich and pat and MYSELF) might have got the idea that your reverse Okeetee cornsnakes were creams. I KNOW it is why I believe they are creams. I'm looking at your Oct06 article in reptiles right now. Page 59. The first complete paragraph talks about the LIGHT creams used to bred to Miami corns to produce your line of candycane corns. The second paragraph says "As babies, the background...." It is obvious that you mean the creamsicle / Candycane line from paragraph 1.

The third new paragraph on that page says "During the mid to late 1980s, we noticed a few specimens that possessed unusually large white borders....." These are what became your reverse Okeetee corns ACCORDING to that paragraph.

The term "specimens" is pretty much like a pronoun without an antecedent. Following the structure of the previous paragraph, the specimens referred to are the creamsicles OR, more likely, the candycanes. It is written a little vaguely, but that's the conclusion you pretty much have to draw based on the way this section is constructed. If your reverse okeetee cornsnakes ACTUALLY have no creamsicle blood in them, that was just a confusing way to construct that paragraph....and it must have sense caused you a LOT of unnecessary grief.

I do have a question for you (and I guess this is a good avenue to ask this question once and for all): was that just a misleading paragraph or did you use those candycanes to produce some of your reverse okeetee corns at all?

If you didn't use any candycanes / creamsicles to make your reverses, I apologize for ALSO believing that you did. I often showed the above article to people that didn't believe me. I don't feel like I ever INTENTIONALLY tried to misrepresent the origin of your reverse okeetee cornsnakes.

KJ
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KJUN Snakehaven

>>Hey Kathy:
>>
>>I BET I know where Don (and Rich and pat and MYSELF) might have got the idea that your reverse Okeetee cornsnakes were creams. I KNOW it is why I believe they are creams. I'm looking at your Oct06 article in reptiles right now. Page 59. The first complete paragraph talks about the LIGHT creams used to bred to Miami corns to produce your line of candycane corns. The second paragraph says "As babies, the background...." It is obvious that you mean the creamsicle / Candycane line from paragraph 1.
>>
>>The third new paragraph on that page says "During the mid to late 1980s, we noticed a few specimens that possessed unusually large white borders....." These are what became your reverse Okeetee corns ACCORDING to that paragraph.
>>
>>The term "specimens" is pretty much like a pronoun without an antecedent. Following the structure of the previous paragraph, the specimens referred to are the creamsicles OR, more likely, the candycanes. It is written a little vaguely, but that's the conclusion you pretty much have to draw based on the way this section is constructed. If your reverse okeetee cornsnakes ACTUALLY have no creamsicle blood in them, that was just a confusing way to construct that paragraph....and it must have sense caused you a LOT of unnecessary grief.
>>
>>I do have a question for you (and I guess this is a good avenue to ask this question once and for all): was that just a misleading paragraph or did you use those candycanes to produce some of your reverse okeetee corns at all?
>>
>>If you didn't use any candycanes / creamsicles to make your reverses, I apologize for ALSO believing that you did. I often showed the above article to people that didn't believe me. I don't feel like I ever INTENTIONALLY tried to misrepresent the origin of your reverse okeetee cornsnakes.
>>
>>KJ
>>-----
>> KJUN Snakehaven
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KJUN Snakehaven

I just found the old magazine (it is actually Oct. '96) to see what we are discussing. I can see how it is confusing, but never noticed it before (guess it is because I know what I was referring to!). Nobody else has ever asked about it until now.

We were talking about creams helping to found the candycanes in the paragraph you pointed out. Then we have a paragraph discussing more generally about how yellow develops with age, and how we choose our keepers. The paragraph after that goes into the making of alb. / reverse okeetees. Where it says "During the mid - to late 1980s, we noticed a few specimens that possessed unusually large white borders...etc..." - It SHOULD have said "...a few specimens of amelanistic corns that possessed...etc..."

Because the paragraphs were split by something somewhat unrelated, it never ocurred to me that the words were missing, and that people could think I was still referring to the paragraph about the candycanes. But since you pointed it out, I can see that now, after all of these years! Just never thought about it, and nobody said anything.

If the 3rd paragraph meant that the alb. okeetees derived from creams and / or candycanes, it would indicate that the creams and candycanes were developed BEFORE the alb. okeetees, but the opposite is true.

The time line (in my collection, anyway)is that we had LOTS of amel corns we bred for the pet trade (there were no named "breeds" at that time). We saw some variation, and started breeding the "no-whte" ones first (that became sunglows later). Then started breeding the wide white bordered amels (that later became reverse / alb. okeetees). Then we used existing types (light colored alb. okeetees, Miami phase, light creams - which we never actually produced from scratch ourselves, but got elsewhere- and just light colored amel corns, to found our line of candycanes.

Until today, I had no idea that the article had misled anyone into thinking otherwise. I thank you for pointing it out, and truly apologize if I confused anyone else (better later than never!)

>>Until today, I had no idea that the article had misled anyone into thinking otherwise. I thank you for pointing it out, and truly apologize if I confused anyone else (better later than never!)

Ahhhh, at least you know WHY now, huh? Here's the funny thing, on another forum, the owner mentioned your RO corns were creams. (Sorry that I have to be elusive, but I don't want to lose a post - you know what I mean.) I said something like "I've always heard that, but why do people say it? Did Kathy tell you are something?"

The reply was "She said it in her old article." I went back read the article, and replied something like "I missed it the first time and assumed she just meant amels, but it looks like you are right." Since then, I showed that to people who asked me why I said yours where creams. In other words, back in '96 i read it the way you meant it. When I was "corrected," I realized (i.e., THOUGHT)I had read it wrong to begin with. Oh, well. I stand correct.

I'll be the first to say I'm sorry for mistaking your words!
KJ
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KJUN Snakehaven

that people were confusing the candycane project with the alb. okeetee project. I have always mentioned about the candycane / cream connection anytime somebody asked, so those who cared would know.

I don't remember ever seeing that aspect of the article discussed here, or anywhere else - must have missed it. Sure wish I would have heard about it back in '96 so I could have straightened it out way back then.

Looks like it was my mistake for not being clear (and I usually take care to write clearly, in proper English, darn it!) - not your mistake. So there is nothing for you to apologize for.

Thanks again for bringing it to my attention.

I'll add to that Don. 2 years ago, emerging from a clutch of 28 eggs laid by a 3rd generation pure Okeetee locale corn bred to another Locale Okeetee(how do I know? I caught them myself), was a spontaneous amel, an actual honest to gosh TRUE Reverse Okeetee! I would love to pair that one up with anyone else that has had that great good fortune. PS The picture doesn't do her justice.

. . .
South Mountain Reptiles

Thanks Don, I did tell you about this a few months ago, wish I did when the female "reverse" hatched. please get in touch if you have any suggestions as to how to progress with her breeding(she should be good to go in spring of 2009).Howie

About all you can do if you're not seeing more albinos within that family is breed it to a good looking unrelated fluorescent corn. A reverse Okeetee would probably degrade that look.
South Mountain Reptiles

I don't have a fluorescent, but if you do have a male that will be ready to breed in spring of 2009, perhaps we should partner on this. I was going to breed her to my best Okeetee male and raise all the offspring. I wonder what we should call the offspring of fluorescent to true reverse okeetee??a fluorever??

Your's looks more like a fluorescent than a reverse Okeetee, so I think you should keep it that way. Here is one of my adult males. If ya want to co-op on this, I'll send one of my males to you for a standard breeding loan co-op.

I just shot and rendered this on my flat-screen. It should be accurate, but I'll look it later on a CRT to make sure the color's real. My camera's pretty reliable in that realm.

South Mountain Reptiles

I don't even know the genetics of a fluorescent but i bow to your experience here Don. Hey, lets do this for next year. Perhaps we an discuss this further over a beer in daytona in 27 weeks?I will say that my female is 100% reverse okeetee corn however, no matter its phenotypical appearance.

You drink beer and I'll drink Pepsi, but yeah, we'll get together in Daytona.

Yeah, nothing wrong with you calling your's a reverse Okeetee. It's just that it has the general look of the fluorescents. Probably why Rich didn't want to call his reverse Okeetees. The colors on those are so much cleaner. Less noise, if ha know what I mean.
South Mountain Reptiles

Pepsi whats that? i guess a melanistic version of the uncola? hey, any excuse to say hi and socialize with one of the good guys is always welcome. by the way the male pictured is gorgeous and looks very very closely like mine. what are his genetics??? is he a fluorescent?

- - - Pepsi whats that? i guess a melanistic version of the uncola? hey, any excuse to say hi and socialize with one of the good guys is always welcome. by the way the male pictured is gorgeous and looks very very closely like mine. what are his genetics??? is he a fluorescent? - - -

YEAH, SINCE I DON'T DRINK COFFEE OR ALCOHOL, I NEED A VICE. YOU SHOULD HEAR ME SPEED TALK AFTER A COUPLE OF DEWS. I CALL IT MY GREEN COFFEE, EVEN THOUGH IT HAS LESS THAN 1/4 OF THE CAFFEIENE THAT COFFEE HAS.

MY MALES LIKE THE ONE I PIC'D ARE FLUORESCENTS. I AM WORKING ON A LINE OF RED ONES TOO. THOSE ARE GONNA BE AWESOME.
South Mountain Reptiles

"I AM WORKING ON A LINE OF RED ONES TOO. THOSE ARE GONNA BE AWESOME."

"Gonna be awesome"?????? I don't know about gonna be but that flourescent above is awesome now! Don, that snake truly blew me away just now....literally said WOW! out loud in a room by myself. I knew there was a reason I was being drawn back to corns.

Rob

Hey,
Thanks y'all!!!!!!
Shalom,
PAT

If you hadn't asked, we'd never have learned the real story behind them. That the candy canes were the ones with the first drops of alien blood, and not the reverse Okeetees. I say "first" cuz as you can all imagine, after all the subsequent breedings back to pure corns, the Emory's blood was seriously diluted. Calling candy canes "hybrids" could be the equivalent of saying you're taking a milk bath, when there is actually only a tablespoon of milk in 60 gallons of water. I know I started my candy cane lines with albinos and Miami phase corns, but I'd be naive to say I haven't infused some alien blood into that line along the way with outside bloodlines, in my endeavors to improve the looks in one direction or another. Better white. Better red. Better bands.
South Mountain Reptiles

. . . bred that wild albino to any other red-eyed corns? If so, what were the results?
South Mountain Reptiles

WOW Don!, That thing is KILLER!! Jeff

Very nice looking snake. I am not saying you produced an albino from released animals, however, I do know that people are/have released "okeetee phase" and babies from locality Okeetee, in the okeetee area.

My wifes uncle caught a male on the hunt club in the early 80's. His friend had a wc locality pair and gave her uncle an F1 female. Every year he bred his pair and his friend bred his pair, each year they released all of the babies back onto the club and in different locations in Jasper Co.

I also know of other persons that have released Okeetee phase animals with different het traits, back onto the club property. Hopefully your's wouldn't produce albinos when bred to another albino corn, however, I am afraid it might. It wouldn't suprise me for somone to catch an anery, motley, or various other morphs from Okeetee. I know of a guy that caught an albino corn in Florida, when he bred her to a snow, he got some snows, it happens, but hopefully yours is not from CB animals.

If you are referring to my True Reverse Okeetee, yes, it is always possible that she arose from released corns on the okeetee. The odds of that being a reality, however, are very low. In three years of breeding the mother of the above corn, I have hatched out 84 babies. Only one was amel. Continued breedings over time should tell for sure whether this was a spontaneous mutation or not. I am leaning towards the spontaneous based so far on the one in 84 ratio. So did this amel arise from a wild caught corn that had the genetics to produce amels?.. possible. How possible?.. very close to the slim and none side of the spectrum. As for phenotype, the wild caughts certainly appeared in every way to correspond to full blood and true Okeetees. I base this on size, color, and the hundreds of Okeetees I have seen and caught since 1969. Just my 2 cents. Sorry for the rambling, but hope it may have cleaned up the muddy pool a bit.

Yeah, if you only got one out of 84, it's doubtful that it's heritable; Mendelian or otherwise. It would still be interesting to see what would result from breeding it to a complementary albino.

Don
South Mountain Reptiles

Don, I was wondering about the genetics of this snake as well. It would seem that the first amels ever (however many millions of years ago that was) must have came about from the same type of spontaneous mutation that produced Howie's animal. That is presuming that all of the snakes then where "normal". Would Howie's snake not then tend to be heritable from this point on.

I guess what I'm asking is if you know of any other types of amel out there in corns, or any rats for that matter, that is not heritable?

I would love to see her breed back to one of Howies other pure okee's and then breed the offspring back to the mother or to each other to possibly start a line of "pure" locale specific reverse okee's.

Thanks,
Ralph Mills.

TRUE, THE FIRST RECESSIVE TRAITS WERE OBVIOUSLY SPONTANEOUS, BUT THE ONE HOWIE HAS MAY NOT BE A RECESSIVE ALBINO.

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NO OTHERS AT THIS TIME, THAT I'M AWARE.

I'M SURE PURE LOCALITY IS IMPORTANT TO SOME FOLKS. IT USED TO BE IMPORTANT TO ME UNTIL PEOPLE STARTED SELLING THEM AS PURE WHEN THEY WEREN'T. NOWADAYS, EVEN IF YOU CATCH ONE IN THE WILD, THERE IS NO ASSURANCE IT WASN'T RELEASED THERE INTENTIONALLY OR IS THE PRODUCT OF ANIMALS TRANSPLANTED THERE. KINDA TAKES ALL THE FUN AND MYSTERY OUT OF COMING UP WITH NEW ANOMALOUS "WILD" CORNS, DOESN'T IT? I SWEAR, IF SOMETHING can BE SCREWED UP, MAN WILL FIND A WAY TO DO IT. ARRRGGGHHHHHHHH. : (
South Mountain Reptiles

Wow man!,.......The fact that you caught the normal phenotype locality animals yourself, and then produced a "reverse" out of the clear blue sky is pretty darn special in my book. Sort of like finding your own 24kt. gold nugget!..LOL!

That is REALLY something!,......in all reality, it's more like hitting a pure VEIN of gold, because you can continue to produce many more of the absolute "real deal"............congratulations dude!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Thanks Doug, I kinda triple taked when I saw that clutch of 28, and the lone amel sitting on top of it. Thought I was having flashbacks from my wilder days in the 60s. Maybe Purple Haze is still in my brain. It was a special event, too bad other than the very few who realize it, no one will ever know how rare an event.

Howie turns and looks at the snake a third time while singing, " excuse me while I kiss the sky.....".

I love that snake Howie! Such a neat thing to have pop out!! and also...it is LOCALITY!!!!

I never get tired of you sharing that pic!!
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Genesis 1:1

That's right Billy,....and if you look real hard(after dropping some LSD) you can just make out the 50,000 acre Okeetee estate on this globe, and see Howie flippin' boards as he's whistling some Hendrix..LOL!

~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

HA HA HA!! Doug, you so freakin rule!! I can't stop laughing!
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Genesis 1:1

I forgot to add this snazzy "snake hunting" outfit that many wore on their "hunting" adventures in that era!

~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Actually if you go back to the early 70s and 60s , as my fellow dinosaurs know, the hunting in okeetee consisted of stump hunting, rarely flipping boards. and I wish i could share more than that one pic, taken by Ralph Wiseman, as I am an old dog that knows not the black magic of digital camera technology. Oh to the good old days of the instamatic camera and the buck and a half pitcher of beer. Lately things don't seem the same.

Howie, the first Okeetees I saw from the hunt club was back in 1976. My friend went there and caught all the babies barking the pines. Got milks and other things up under the bark too, of course. The adults were acught in logs or road hunting. Oddly enough, many of the ones he brought back could have been called hypos. Rich colors, but almost no black. Of course, some were perfect poster children for the Okeetees we see today in captivity. Rich colors with broad black margins around the markings.
South Mountain Reptiles

Howie,.....yeah, there was probably a little less debris laying around there back then, and "stumpin'" would probably be more accurate than "flippin'",.....although I'm sure a combination of both techniques were used throughout your adventure.

What is REALLY mind-blowing to me, is the fact that I drove right past Jasper County the other day on the way back to my home in Florida from N.J, where my girlfriend and I went to her daughter's wedding. I explained to her that this was the very place where the name "Okeetee" originated. Man, if it wasn't winter time, I would have made her stop there to hunt for a while..LOL!
The whole time, I was picturing in my mind while I was looking out the car window, that somewhere out there were killer looking specimens tucked away for the winter just calling my name..LOL!

I sort of relate states and geography in general to what types of snakes are found in the area, and every state we went through, I would tell her about a few of the more coveted species of snakes that were from the area. Of course when we drove through Calvert County, Maryland I had to tell her about the nice "temporalis" that are native to that locale. And again as we saw signs for the "Outer Banks" of the Carolinas, I told her about the Outer Banks Kingsnake(sticticeps) that inhabited the coastal islands..LOL!, I told her about the "Edisto Island" Kingsnakes when we got down to Georgia too, etc...etc...LOL!
I ALWAYS have snakes on the brain, that's just the way it is!..LOL!,......I'm sure you can relate!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Oh yeah, I can relate . I'm always thinking what kind of herps are out there as I am driving. You should have stopped in Jasper county. this is actually a great time to look for corns, weather allowing. they are usually out early. oh well.

Yes, but unfortunately it was way too cold for any snakes to be out and about, that day they would have needed thermal underwear in their igloos..LOL!......VERY disappointing indeed!

best regards, ~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Don, I was wondering about the genetics of this snake as well. It would seem that the first amels ever (however many millions of years ago that was) must have came about from the same type of spontaneous mutation that produced Howie's animal. That is presuming that all of the snakes then where "normal". Would Howie's snake not then tend to be heritable from this point on.

I guess what I'm asking is if you know of any other types of amel out there in corns, or any rats for that matter, that is not heritable?

I would love to see her breed back to one of Howies other pure okee's and then breed the offspring back to the mother or to each other to possibly start a line of "pure" locale specific reverse okee's.

Thanks,
Ralph Mills.

sorry, wrong part of the thread..............

Ok, while I'm here, how have you been Howie? I headed out to do some herpin the last week of March if it's nice. The wife and kids will be gone for a week. I don't where I'm going yet but am definitly going somewhere. You game?

Take care,.
Ralph

Time permitting, sure. although that is around the time of my annual Okeetee and parts south trip. Let me know when you have firmed up some dates.

>>I'll add to that Don. 2 years ago, emerging from a clutch of 28 eggs laid by a 3rd generation pure Okeetee locale corn bred to another Locale Okeetee(how do I know? I caught them myself), was a spontaneous amel, an actual honest to gosh TRUE Reverse Okeetee! I would love to pair that one up with anyone else that has had that great good fortune. PS The picture doesn't do her justice.
>>

I've produced albino cornsnakes from normal F1 cornsnakes captured in Jasper County near the Club, too. I was only interested in locality Okeetee corns at the time, so I sold off that bloodline FAST. With the THOUSANDS of captive bred cornsnakes released in that area since at least the '70s, there is NO SURPRISE that amels, hypos, etc. keep popping up today.

We (I mean anyone who has ever herped the area) are likely catching the offspring (or F2 or F3) from released normal corns that were carriers of one or more traits - or the actual released cornsnakes themselves years after they were released. Sure, survival is low, but THOUSANDS have been released. ...and many by one of the largest breeders of cornsnakes today!

KJ
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KJUN Snakehaven

But how would that explain only one amel out of almost 100 hatchlings from the same parents. If both wc parents where het amels that are descended from released cb snakes then he should have hatched out quite a few more amels than just the one random animal.

>>But how would that explain only one amel out of almost 100 hatchlings from the same parents. If both wc parents where het amels that are descended from released cb snakes then he should have hatched out quite a few more amels than just the one random animal.

Is that the only clutch the SAME parents produced? For it to me a "new" event, you'd need to have 2 mutations for amelanism spontaneously get produced. Too unlikely to even think about UNLESS this is the first albino NOT inheritable in cornsnakes. Otherwise, one has to be a het, and you are looking at one new mutation. Possible, but still pretty unlikely. Of course, all mutations are pretty unlikely.

No offense, but if this is the only albino out of multiple clutches, it is more likely that the female might be a het (new mutation or not) and sperm from another male got to her one way or another....or babies/eggs from 2 different clutches got mixed up. I don't know the set-up, so I can't comment. I do know odds and genetics, but I WOULD bet everything I own against the odds of two NON-hets producing an albino via two random mutations that were at the same locus (one bad sperm and one bad egg) - especially if this albino DOES turn out to be allelic to other albino corns.

If these adults only produced that one clutch, I'd wait and see what future clutches produce before making any conclusions.

KJ
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KJUN Snakehaven

Thats just it. This pair has produced clutches for Howie for the past several years and this was the only amel produced out of close to 100 hatchlings produced by THIS pair together.

If the same pair breeds together for several years and produces clutch after clutch of normal babies and then you just happen to have an amel pop up and it's the only one out of close to 100 siblings then that's pretty random I guess. I guess this could be the same way the very first amel appeared in nature (however millions of years ago that was). I am not sure what causes this type of mutation since I am not as well versed in genetics as you and a lot of other people on this site. I can understand and appreciate the scepticism however because of the history of that region with people releasing het and multi-het corns.

But,
He just may have somthing pretty special here. I believe he does especially as Don has mentioned, it doesn't have quite the RO look that captive breed RO's do. I have seen this animal in person and took the pic shown on this post(with a pretty crappy camera and limited photography skills) and it is gorgeous!! Hopefully when it warms up a good pic can be taken under a shade tree where the colors can be better represented.

Thanks, for the response and feed back.

WOW, I had flash backs to being a kid. There is just no way for kids today to understand no internet, using 50 year old books from the library. Long distance phone calls to share "rare info".
3 people doing the same project in the US and not knowing it.

I wish I was 5 years old, so I would have been hanging out with the guys and gals doing serious stuff. But I loved stuff that was big, in fact I told Norm Damm back then a few times, why do colubrids? LOL. Norms a great guy, I wish he slapped me back then,, I might have had more fun and made a little money too.

Thanks for the post Don, I enjoyed it more for a nostalgic purpose.
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.HerpZillA.com