Reptile & Amphibian Forums

First let me say that I am not kissing anyone’s butt here. I am merely stating what I have wanted to for over a year now but have restrained myself. If my post here hurts anyone’s feelings or offends anyone frequenting these forums, so be it. I encourage everyone to read all the post below concerning locality Northern Pines prior to reading this post.

The last few threads concerning locality have really disgusted me. Rich merely asked a question to his fellow herpers for information concerning locality of Northern Pines. The only thing it seems we have all agreed on during this rambling rolling wreck of a thread is that he had every right to do so. What has yet to be answered is his question. Not one person has done this. Several people have commended him and recommended breeders they felt had good stock and that is it. Most of the other posts have been to attack him for asking, “Ok, you tell me they are good stock and locality but can you help me find the proof”? Again, no one has done so, most have attacked him for questioning them as if it were personal. News flash everyone, it IS personal. There are about 3-5 people on this forum that I w0uld trust solely on their word. If that offends anyone, odds are you are one of the people I don’t trust. That isn’t meant to be disrespectful to anyone on this forum, it is just the simple truth. I do not care how long you have been in the hobby or who you know or who you bought animals from, it is up to me to decide if I have enough information to represent an animal as a pure locality. Since I will be going on someone else’s word that means do I trust that person. I don’t know most of you well enough to blindly trust you based on your word. I also don’t expect most of you to blindly trust me if in the future you purchased a locality animal from me. For most of my animals, I can give you several ways of verifying what I am telling you is true about the animal or it’s off –spring and would not be offended at being requested to provide this information.

In my opinion, Rich’s question is no different than the new person asking for feeding, housing heating or some other advice. He is seeking information on an open forum that you would think would share this information. We answer those questions that are posted hundreds of times over and over, why not answer this one. My thought, because not many can and that embarrasses these persons and those who purchased animals from him.

All of you that are so ready to kiss the big name breeders butts have been so defensive, I ask why? What proof do you have that the animal sold to you is a pure locality? If you have that proof, why not share it with others rather than keep it shrouded in secrecy or blast others for wanting this information?

It bothers me that the people selling the locality animals cannot provide or WILL not provide more information as to the proof of the locality. I am surprised that it doesn’t bother more on here. You should be concerned. With the stings of the past and the more recent ones, you should want as much information about a New Jersey locality animal as you can get, North Carolina for that matter. Both states have laws protecting these animals. A responsible breeder would have given you the information as to the date their founding stock was captured so that you would be protected.

Hypothetical situation coming everyone. Brace yourself, here it comes…Say on the off chance that a big name breeder most of you are so willing to laud has sold you and 10 other people Ocean Co, NJ Pine Barren animals. They are awesome and you love them and have posted pictures of them, you put them on your page advertising babies for 2003 are be available. You are one of the elite to have them. Well, New Jersey wildlife has been tracking this line since the adults original capture. They go after the collector and the guy who bought them from him. They are offered immunity if they give up the name of 5 persons they sold the off spring to. Do you have that same level of trust for the breeder that he will not turn you in as one of the five? Now before any of the “big boys” or their groupies gets on here and blasts me, do your homework and read the post. I haven’t accused anyone of having illegal animals it is purely hypothetical. You also need to do your homework on the rest of this situation, even though I said hypothetical, truth be told, it has happened to people before. I am sorry, but no one on here has posted enough information openly to make me want to take that chance. Once (in the past two months) we asked a well know breeder of locality animals to verify the locality of his animals. He stated that he didn’t reveal his sources. Funny thing is, the more I dug, come to find out, we had purchased the parents to his animals. Guess we didn’t need his source after all, nor does it make his animals important to our program. See what the silence and holier than though attitude can result in?

Somewhere it was stated that Rich questioning persons on this forums is probably dissuading the “newbies” (I paraphrased). Well, I think it is the other way around. I think we owe it to the so called newbies of which I consider myself, to provide as much helpful information as possible, no matter the topic. Shame on those who have demanded peoples respect based on their longevity in this hobby or the stock they have that was purchased from a well-known breeder. You should be ashamed. Threads like the ones below (and those damnable AWESOME, SIGN ME UP FOR A PAIR NEXT YEAR !!!!!!!! KILLER ANIMAL insert name here; responses to every freaking picture that is posted) are why I don’t actively post on the forums. Shame on me, I still need to share my limited knowledge of herps with others and I will strive to do so in the future.

On a personal note, Billy, I took your post to Rich as a blast/attack, whatever you want to classify it. To answer one of your other questions, well if by attacking Rich for questioning their animals locality in more depth should have been reason enough for Rich to be satisfied then no they didn’t get silent. But, if by attacking Rich for questioning their animal’s locality in more depth and never providing the true answer was their answer, then in my opinion, every breeder of Northerns did get silent. So far the only breeders that have stated they had generic animals was JWC and KJUN I believe, correct me if I am wrong there. Pull your head out of the sand and read the post below, hopefully you will see that your remarks were off base and unwarranted. No one has answered the man’s question yet. Maybe they should have remained utterly silent if they didn’t have the information rather than lash out.

Sorry to go on so long, actually I am not and I am not sorry if I stepped on toes or hurt feelings, if it did then there is probably a reason for it. I will not respond to flames or blasts as it gets us nowhere and because I haven’t written anything here to warrant one. I have merely stated my opinion and facts and like it or not, you were interested enough to read it.

I, like KJ thought the most recent thread was going somewhere, I thought JWC did an excellent job of portraying his thoughts and so did a few others, but as I suspected, it eventually ended back in the gutter. My suggestion Rich, give up on the locality NJ Northerns as it appears there are to many delicate flowers on this forum.

dc

that through the research of others I had some of the original line that came from the 70's zoo stock. Do I care? No. There is no actual way to validate any of this except by recolections of old herpers and gatherd opinions anyway.

I would bet a dime to a hole in a doughnut that the "zoo" may have done a little inhancing to build a viable line too. Just because a zoo does the work does not mean they are as locality pure as some of you or I hope. Preservation and education is their goal and if dipping in the gene pool makes it work they will do it.

I suppose instead of being the cheapest n. pines out there I should do a price hike LOL. I bought my pines from a good man who I am sure gave me all the data at the time of purchase yet my only interest was in a pair of nice looking pines. I think he even mentioned ther linege when I met him face to face a year later.

My reason for even wanting n. pine was because my mentor Al C. Robbins used them in his shows dating back to the 30's and he always said they were his favorite. He was from Harrison NJ.

I have bred them for several years and now the breeders will be moving on soon. I stayed out of the debate because I was not concerned over the locality of my stock as far as n. pines go. Now there your baby to rock Mr. Cherry .

I take locality with a grain of salt at times, I figure if I did not pick it up and make note of it with my own two hands then I am at the mercy of the other person anyway. You can trust another man to no end but if the person your selling to does not like your info then he like Rich should be able to check it out and make the decision for him self.

Great post Camby glad your soap box still works and look it holds two people LOL!!!

Later-Del

Okay guys, for god's sake lets let this forum do what it is meant to do and be an open exchange of idaes and information. Dayrl as you know you and I have hunted together and corresponded for a long time and I am currently buying some animals from Del. Some he has background on others he doesn't. But they are still quality animals. some I will keep in tyhe collection, some I will not. So don't either of you take this personally by any means, it is not aimed specifically at anyone..

The one absolute truth that has been mentioned so far that is a fact that poaching is a really bad deal for all of us. Further to that point if I ever find out ANYONE sends me poached animals they will not have to wait for the feds to call me I will call them myself. Been there done that and am not going back again. The Lacy act is no laughing matter.

As far as locales are concerned the ability to switch animals, add animals in etc. is way too easy, so we all really have to TRUST whomever we get our information from. I get over 500 emails a year wanting to know if I sold such and so an animal. In most cases I can find the records and answer sometimes I can't. That goes with the territory.

Recently I had a young man that bought some animals from a dealer in Florida who said they were my animals out of a large group he bought from me. He didn't, I said so and that was that. But in that group of animals ( of which he sent me pics. ) was one of the most beautiful bright yellow normal sonoran gophers I have ever seen. I told him so and it still in his collection and one of his favorite snakes, no locale but absolutely beautiful. It would grace anyones collection.

So my bottom line is really pretty easy, ask questions, get answers and then if you do not get what satisfy's you, don't buy or keep that snake.

Again, please realize why Jeff Baringer provides this forum and I sponser it each year and that is for open discusion for the education, exchange of information and enjoyment of the entire pituophis family. Debates are great and usually pretty entertaining, but name calling and flames really get boring and childish after a while.

Good Luck everyone and rave on,

John Cherry
Cherryville Farms

Just a note so this does not head in an unfavorable direction. I do not know if you two have read everything that has transpired in the previous threads prior to reading this one. I may be wrong but actually all this post is going back to is a "Question" made by me and the attitude exhibited by others.

Thats it, it was actually asked to both you guys also about your herps but went unanswered as well. If it was not important then please then it should not be important now in this thread. I can see no reason why we should again debate any of this. It is an opinion of what transpired.

All the posts this is based on are below in previous threads for any examples. Let's try not to create new exampless and hopefully finally learn something from all this.

Rich Hebron

Hey Camby

Just curious what type of proof do you supply as proof of your animals origins ?

Keith

Yeeeeeehaaaaaawwwwwwwww!!! It's about time. That post is music to my ears! Well said.

Camby,

Thank you for your post first of all. It is nice to see someone talk about this issue, like yourself, Cherry, Del, etc. that actually makes a point and gets to it without beating around the bush. Thank you!

Why is the term " attack " so popular here? I have not even come close to attacking Rich. Websters defines attack as, " To use force against in order to harm." I have done no such thing. I have encouraged him, and called him on some things. He is not happy with that, and thus never answers any questions. He is doing the same thing that he brands the breeders of locale northern pines of doing, that is being silent. Funny, eh?

He also has called me a fool, Billy Doe, and a new person to this hobby who is wide eyed with himself. If you read any of my posts, you will see I have not called him any names. See the difference? He also said that he liked that we disagreed. I don't. Why would anyone rejoice in disagreement? In his recent post, he has brought up the LA pine " incident" which is in no way an incident and I have yet to figure out WHAT he is talking about.

It is great, like I have posted already, that he is asking about locale and wanting to find true locale northerns. I too shared that common trait, when I was looking for one. People have recommended to him legit breeders, which is awesome! My only wish is to point him to find what he is looking for.

The thing that upset me is that he branded all who didn't tell him what he wanted to hear corrupt. He spoke of this silence. I have asked him over and over to explain in factual detail, but to no avail. He then said that Meltzer stayed silent " as the buck passed". With no fact, interaction with John himself, and pure assumption, that is quite rude to say, don't you think? With calling him on that, I am not putting up with someone making a public bogus comment about a friend like that.

The reason he started his posts was a great reason. The way he handled what he heard, and handled feedback was less than elementary. His attitude has been very divisive and I am only one of a whole slew of people that believe this.

I wouldn't tell him to give up on locality. Why do that? I encourage him to look! The locality is staring at him in the face! It is like someone who has a serious drug problem. They keep doing it, while those that want to help them offer help in every way.

The evidence is pretty clear on this forum. No need to defend myself.

Take care!
Billy
-----
Genesis 1:1

simple deductions. If you know, say so! If you don't say so! Can we move on? Can someone post some pictures of some nice "locale Jersey Pines"? That way I can say "awesome pics"! : ) Like the wise words of that famous American "can..can...can't we al..al...all ju..ju..just get along?"

I agree!
I will be posting some new pics of my locale northern pine very soon!
Take care bro!
Billy
-----
Genesis 1:1

you can still take pics. A friend Del and I know in New York wanted to show us what a Pine Barrens New Jersey Northern Pine looked like. I hope you like it.

>>simple deductions. If you know, say so! If you don't say so! Can we move on? Can someone post some pictures of some nice "locale Jersey Pines"? That way I can say "awesome pics"! : ) Like the wise words of that famous American "can..can...can't we al..al...all ju..ju..just get along?"

!
-----
Genesis 1:1

credit to Bob Fengya

>>credit to Bob Fengya
>>

>>>>credit to Bob Fengya
>>>>
>>

I love that pic, it shows how well the snake's natural camoflauge really works. If that thing was lying still in some pinecones in dappled sunlight, you would almost surely miss it unless you were really looking for it. That's what I love about finding wild snakes, they always blend in so well!

Sorry, guys. I couldn't resist!

>>Sorry, guys. I couldn't resist!
>>

!
-----
Genesis 1:1

Haahaahaa. Sorry, I couldn't resist making this post either!

.

Generally a very well thought out post to which I would like to emphasize a point you brushed on. The 3-5 people I trust MAY not be the same 3-5 people you trust which goes to the heart of the issue for me. EVERYONE, even John C, admits that SOME of their locality stock simply goes back to the word of someone they trust. I for one trust the judgment of the breeder whose stock was originally brought to question and nothing has been said here to change that opinion. My respect for this individual's judgment on this particular issue has nothing to do with the animals I've bought from him (which now that I think about it is a single pair of corns) the size of his operation (which isn't big) or his longevity as a commercial breeder (which isn't the longest) but from his knowledge of this particular species which goes back to his childhood in the northeast. He is well versed in both the natural history of the animal and well connected to the network of individuals in the northeast who have been working with northerns for years. That he made a judgment call in determining the origin of his current stock is true but that is a far cry from insinuating that they were NJ x NC locality crosses being represented as pure NJ stock. I know that Rich had no intention to make the insinuation but his wording was not the best and it came across that way and I'm not the only one who saw it like that.

The numbers of people who feel they were being unjustly ridiculed by the locality nuts (not my word thank KJUN for it) are growing. I'm not sure why anyone is surprised when finger pointing is returned nor do I understand why those who dare question the view of locality extremists are painted as attacking. My neighbor cut a snake in half with a shovel the other day and excitedly told me how vicious it was. He didn't seem to appreciate the view that the animal was simply defending itself. I'd take the time to explain the analogy but if you (not you specifically Camby) don't get it, the point is likely moot.

It has been asserted that eventually we'll all need to come together to preserve our rights to keep and enjoy these animals. It is my view, and I'm equally as free to say this, a few (though not all) who hold very fundamental views on this locality issue, have developed a holier than thou attitude regarding the subject and are being divisive. Given the need for community here and the fact that nobody has presented a case for purity along locality lines outside of personal preference, I wonder if it's worth all the bull (no pun intended).

Since I know its coming I'll defend my statement about nobody making a case for the absolute NEED for locality information now. Camby came the closest with the legal enforcement issue that I've heard to date. Still the narrow notion of purity along locality lines isn't needed to preserve the logic of his point. As an example, say a breeder puts together a pair of norhtern pines. The male has verifiable information back to legal founder stock from south central NC and the female has the same back to Ocean County NJ. The breeder could breed this pair, sell offspring and be absolutely right to call them PURE northern pines. He could even provide his locality information and those purchasing them would be protected from overzealous law enforcement agents. Verifiable lineage becomes the real issue not whether they are "locality pure". The latter is mere personal preference. The concept of locality pure isn't wrong but it isn't the holy grail of herpetoculture either. Back to my point the breeder with these PURE northern pines SHOULDN'T have to bow to locality fundamentalists and label their animals as locality crosses, generics or abominations but everyone knows as well as I that any other breeder who did this terrible thing would be run into the ground on this forum and those who dare present an alternate view would simply be dismissed as but lickers.

"That he made a judgment call in determining the origin of his current stock is true but that is a far cry from insinuating that they were NJ x NC locality crosses being represented as pure NJ stock. I know that Rich had no intention to make the insinuation but his wording was not the best and it came across that way and I'm not the only one who saw it like that." Tony D

I would like to make clear to those that have not read the original threads the point made here by Tony was in regard to a statement made by me in regards to Howie Sherman's stock. It is what it is as stated below as a record for us to proceed further.

"Thats odd, when we spoke he mentioned he only knew where one of the adults locale was believing the other was from North Carolina. At least that is what one person had told me at his booth. " Rich Hebron

I did contact Howie immediately as for verification since mistakes can be made which was posted in the thread as well as open communication request fo any breeders such as Howie to join in the chat in discussing their lines. It appeared there was no getting Tony off this throughout the thread actually from there after. Even when all along I was communicating with Howie himself in regards to his herps.

Even after Howie responded with the answer on the breeder male in question, "delve away rich, but it may not be easy. i dont even recall the guy who i got the adult male breeder from, only that he swore up and down it was an ocena county male" Howie Sherman.

Tony was still relentless. We can all pick and choose from many previous threads on certain points where they can be used well if others are not aware of how it was used previously. I do suggest you read all of the previous threads before coming to any judgement with what Tony is stating here. There was much written concerning this specific point as well earlier.

Since some of what has been mentioned here was not originaly from this post I would like to state my personal opinion on this "Again" as I did to Tony in an earlier post from my below thread.

Tony, you stated Howie's meticulous nature and how he would surely know lineage of his adults. Blasphemy for anyone stating different. Then to basically state anyone concerned with this locale issue just doesn't get it. Along the lines of if you do not catch it yourself then how do you know for sure a herp is from where it is suppose to be from. You stated the possibility of using marketing ploys by people that focused on Locales with newer collectors to make sales.

Tony, I am sure you now see Howie's comment that locale nuts just don't get it. Kudos on the comment from John Meltzer. Seems they are both in agreement with you about this locale issue.

Here are the odd things about it all as I see it. We had/have breeders listing their herps as Locale Specific when available for sale. Someone then asks them for locale info. on those herps for sale. Easy question where as one could expect an easy answer since they are using that term in their marketing. Locale suddenly becomes insigificant by these exact breeders, where as the person questioning them is at fault for something.

I may be a bit meticulous when it comes to purchasing locale herps. You would never get me listing or stating I have a specific locale unless I damn well know for sure I do. So, when I noticed all these breeders selling Locale Herps, I figured they knew what they were talking about and figured them to be just as meticulous as I would be and freely provide data for their claims.

I give alot of respect to Howie for his sincerity concerning this issue and addressing it head on. Appears to be very knowledgeable about pinesnakes as well. I look forward to a continuation in our discussion of this topic outside of the forums. He is unique though.

There were others that did respond to me about this locale issue as well. All that responded stated similar info. on their lines. I did not state their names along with their responses as they seem not to be so free to speak about this openly as Howie was.

It seems I have indeed had my question answered. If a seller is stating a herp as locale specific, the seller himself should at least have the info. to justify his claim. If not, they should list them as generic. I for one would have never asked this question on "Barren's" line herps if not for the fact of so many Breeders stating they had that specific locale for sale.

Tony, your point has been proven. When it comes to pituophis breeders you better take all this locale stuff stated by them with a grain of salt instead demanding info. on what justifies their claim. If they go silent on that question then only trusting what you can catch yourself.

I believe though if we had just let these breeders speak for themselves than having all these unsolicited spokespeople jumping in to state their views on the question at hand (on their behalf) we would have come to the conclusion much sooner that many of these Breeders for the most part actually might not know what they have. Has nothing to do with trust with anyone in the original post made by me. It had to do with their answers.

The only one who answered that question on their lines was Howie Sherman. If you take my question in its own right and had Howie's statement as well as quips from some other breeders who decided only to say they had this line but to not say how they know, we would have maybe 5-7 posts. Wake up people, there are at least over 70 posts made on the fact of ones view of locality being the arguement and who has the right to question these breeders. Camby is right but not direct enough because as I see it who actually made posts to answer this question aside from the never ending responses made by the so many butt lickers who stated we should just believe!!!!!!!!!

Rich Hebron

Rich you still seem to be taking this personal. I think we've both made our points and nobody is denying that either of you or I. SPECIFICALLY, I came to Howie's defense because I trust his judgment. That coupled with the fact that I have a much lower expectation of what locality information CAN be, means that I don't take issue with him calling his stock locality. You don't come to the same conclusion but have at least come to appreciate that Howie's knowledgeable about pines and is open and honest about the lineage of his animals. If it had not been for "but lickers" like me making counter points yes the thread might have had only six or seven responses but it would still be hanging out there that Howie was possibly misrepresenting his animals. After gaining an appreciation for him is this what you would want? Would that you now " give alot of respect to Howie for his sincerity concerning this issue and addressing it head on" ever have come to light?

The only things that are disagreed on here are what constitute locality "data" and the use of the term generic. My point has been that when good people's reputations are threatened by statements, EVEN IF ONLY BY ONE THAT I'VE PUBLICLY ATTESTED TO SEVERAL TIMES WAS UNINTENTIONAL, that maybe we're letting this locality thing run us off track. Yes I have taken a little of an extreme view on this at times but only as a means to illuminate what I see as an extremism in the other direction. Peace Bother!

I am a very poor speller, but while I am at it Howie Sherman did take offense to my using the word "Generic". That though as the whole issue of locality and its meaning did have no purpose in my orginal thread. The actual question asked that started it all was>>>>>>>>>

Any keepers working with an actual line originating back to NJ stock? Many said yes in that post. The story actually begins when the same breeders would not respond to specifics asked afterwards. That was actually ok. Attacks though soon followed by the many loyalists these breeders have for even asking them the question of specifics and not to not just accept it.

Thats how we got here folks, this post is the end result. We are talking about everything aside from what was asked.

Dan Phelps said it best "If you know, say so! If you don't say so!"

All these other debates were never brought up by anyone other then these so called loyalists, butt lickers or whatever number of names they have been referred to throughtout all these posts.

If feel a need to debate all this, start your own damn posts as all I wanted to know about were the various Northen Pines lines bred by these breeders that they themselves (BTW, thats right, they were calling them locale specific and no one else) labled as Locale specific for "Barrens Lines".

I am done with this topic as nothing good has or will come out of it as I am sure many of us are just short of being banned from posting anything else has it is.

John Cherry is correct in much thanks being due to Jeff Barringer for providing just such a place to discuss such things. I do hope our rights to keep herps continues as well as all of us remaining free to speak as we so feel.

I'm done , Rich Hebron

Tony.......my thoughts exactly!!!! Thank you so much for the best post on this topic I have seen! You rule brutha!!!!!!!!!

Take care!
Billy
-----
Genesis 1:1