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Need help my monitors are OK but my jewled lacertas are in trouble. I have two captive bred waters A 5 1/2' female and A 6 1/2' male, and A 6 1/2' male croc monitor, all are doing fine. In november I picked up ten 5" jewled lacertas. I have set them up like my monitors, dirt substrait 120 basking spot,and fed them all the crickets they want. All was well untill A few weeks ago. I noticed that the three that turned out to be males,and are now about 13 to 14" long are starting to have tremors in ther toes. Ther also not running as well as the females, witch are 3 to 4" smaller. Is this because of ther faster growth rate? It looks like MBD to me. I am going to buy A UV bulb today and start dusting ther crickets, but I have neaver had to do this with my monitors. Any Ideas would be of help. thaks for your time.

First off, todays typical(accepted) monitor setup, you know, wide temp range, lots of hiding and substrate, is based on Me. I brought this to the table. Why I say this is odd, I did not design that setup for monitors. Its from other reptiles and was adapted to monitors.

So, what your saying is, can you use a reptile setup for a reptile. The answer is yes, as thats what its designed for.

But, your hot areas are not hot enough. If your want heathy lizards, try 150F for the basking area. That way, you can throw your Uv bulbs in the trash. As they are not needed, when you provide a proper normal temperature range.

Also, when you provide a proper basking area, the cooler areas can be very cool and still function great. Just consider, 65F to 150F, to be a normal temp range this types of lizards NORMALLY need to exsist. Of course, some lizards that come from colder areas can easily take freezing and some for hotter areas, cannot take freezing, but ALL live for the temps just mentioned. All reptiles need a range of temps to allow them to function in a normal way. When functioning in a normal way, they do not NEED UV anything, or be cured of parasites, or taken to the vet, or wonder if they will breed. When kept in a normal way, they breed like flys. ALL OF THEM, not just monitors. Cheers

And yes, I have kept jeweled lecertas this way and they did great.

FR thanks for the help. I'll bump up ther temps to 150. I keep my monitors with a hot spot of 135-140 but I thought this was to high a temp for small-med. sized lizards. I live in the sierra foot hills in calif. and its been warm yesterday andtoday so I put them outside from 10 till 4 and it seemed to help. when I went to gather them up this afternoon the males opened ther mouths and hissed at me. Ive never seen this behavior from them. They also seem to be moveing a litle bit better. In april Ill be moving them outside for the summer, and will hibernate them next winter.

you shouldnt use that temps for lacertas.. i think you should go with 100 degrees ( 35-40 Celsius ) and UV is very important for jewelled lazertas or you will end up with mds. ask bert why he has his outside if not for the UV ??

I really fail to understand how you or anyone can think like you do. Its very disturbing.

First, if you have a range of 65-75F in part of the cage. AND up to 150F in another. That causes one blaring fact. That means their is a range of temps which include your controlling 100F. Which means, if a lacerta or any type reptile does NOT want high temps. They simply do not have to use them. But its there is they want. Funny thing is JL's want it and do use it. So why do they use it?

Another funny thing is the SUN. its like a giant litebulb. If you have the brains to use a temp gun, and had a questioning mind, you would take the temp gun out in the sun and see what kind of ground temps you can find. Whats odd is, even on days of 65F air temps, you can find surface temps well over a 100F, on days of 85F, you can find surface temps above 135F. And on days of 100F, you know what you recomend, you can find surface temps over 150F. The funnyist part is, if you live where theres lizards, The lizards somehow find and live in those areas that have these high surface temps. But of course, they can always go down or move to cooler areas.

But hey, what does that have to do with captivity. Well it does have to do with captivity. You and some like you, are not so smart, you think lizards are people. I am not being mean, but people commonly measure temperature, but using air temps. The problem with that is, REPTILES do not give a flying hairy frog bumm about air temps. They concentrate of mass temps. Because the sun radiates energy, the mass or surface temps are ALWAYS much higher then the air temps, IN THE SUN. So sun using lizards go by mass temps.

Yes, air temps are related in a loose way. But can be off as by over 100%.

To make it simple, I simply eliminated using air temps and started using mass temps, and the reptiles responded in magnificent ways. They did not need UV anymore, they could eat anything and digest that very well. Then grow like weeds and NOT HAVE PROBLEMS. Which means, I did/do not have to fix those problems.

So yea, if you want to keep your reptiles in marginal controlling conditions, because you THINK you know better then they do, go ahead. But I as a field biologist have total faith in their ability to obtain the conditions they need, WHEN they need them. All we have to do is provide them.

Of course, if they CHOOSE not to use them, then no harm done, because we gave a range they could choose from. You know, PICK something you like. Then pick something else later if you wish and your needs change. But I guess you think you know more then the lizards.

About Bert, great fella, I like him alot, but he like so many others chooses to run around with handcuffs on and like to do things the hard way. Yes, hes been very creative and works hard at controlling his lizards, but that one funny thing pops up. The lizards know very well how to control themselves, they do not need Bert, they never did, they hatched and bred and grew up for millions of years before Bert or I came along.

I simply do not understand that people thing ITS ALL ABOUT THEM and not about the lizards. Remember, these exact lizards have been picking their own conditions since before you evolved from a monkey. Cheers

On a side note, I have been taking field temps for many decades on formal reptile studies. We are required to take air temps of several types. We also take surface temps of several types. Guess what, air temps are the least reflective of the reptiles IBT(internal body temps)(another requirement) and mass temps are far closer.

Frank,

I have to ask you about the relation between enough heat and the choice to select temp range and not needing UV.

A guy I know have hatched out Iguanas, he has never used UV on the babies.
And the babies are all crocked backs, would that have been resolved eg. noe bad backs of he had given theme a higher temp at the basking area and the choice to select between very hot and cool?

Im trying to learn and most importently learn what you write in this forum as you cleary are one of the few with massive experience.

Thanks
Bård

That would be hard to say as I do not know this fellas husbandry, but I too have hatched and raised iggies. Without UV and without problems.

I recently traveled to the Dutch antillies and central america. While in Aruba, I hired a four by four, land rover. When at the car rental yard, I noticed a bunch of iggies, it was very hot out, 90 plus F and the iggies were basking and staying in the hottest places. I turned to the fella that worked there and said. In the states, folks think those lizards do not like heat. He turned to me and said, WHAT! ARE THEY CRAZY. those things love heat. LOOK AT THEM.

To clear it up a little, 90F air temps, relates to 130F or more surface temps. One of those iggies spent the entire hot day on the peak of a ashpalt roof. I wonder how hot that was?

In Panama and costa rica, the iggis where high up in the trees, You know, where the SUN was able to hit directly for long periods of time. Or they were on the ground in Open areas, again where the sun was able to hit for long periods of time. I wonder why? Yet folks think they can live by air temps. Hmmmmmmmm My bet is, if you caged iggies in the shade in their habitats of origin, they would fail. So air temps are a false guide.

Yet in the States and Europe, folks give them high temps in the eighties and ninties, you know, what they read the temps are from where they come from. But those folks do not understand, reptiles do not read air temps, they read mass or surface temps. Which in the sun, ARE WAY HIGHER THEN AIR TEMPS.

When these problematic animals are given a choice of higher temps in captivity, they not only use them, but use them well. They also forget about all those problems with lack of calicum and bent and twisted bodies. And they forget about UV bulbs, when allowed to use temps as high as THEY want.

I have raised all manner of reptiles in this manner(let them choose the temps they want)

On a side note. As a field herper, every reptile we see, not just the ones we are studying, spend the vast majority of time, picking DIFFERENT temps. Not one temp. They use a wide range of temps for their different requirements.

For instance, we work montane rattlesnakes. on a given day, we can work 15 individuals, They will range from 17 C to 33C(the hottest) and we will rarely find to exactly the same. But I can tell you, the individuals are using the hottest temps are gravid or a recent food bolus or both. The individuals slightly lower, have partially digested food bolus or are in shed. Wandering individuals are generally in the middle, in the low to mid 20's C

To make it even more interesting, the food bolus(lump) will be an even higher temp then the head or clocacal temps, this is what we call regional heating. Which is very common in snakes, and less common in lizards. But without question, gilas regional heat.

Back to the point of this thread, reptiles do not require one temps or one hot one and one low one. They require the USE of a wide range of temps and use them all for different needs. When this is allowed, they perform at a totally different level then with given a narrow band of temps.

For instance, I have had on average, 150 or more monitors since 1991. That includes wild caught and captive bred, that includes species from all areas that varanids come from. And none, not one single case of Respitory infection and not one single case of mouthrot. Both are common immune system failure deseases. We have had only a handful of calicum problems, less then ten. And those were directly related to me neglecting the them as individuals. In my case, its allowing them to or keeping them hot and not feeding them enough to maintain proper calicum levels. Of course in nature, they would seek cool areas if not enough food is available. I did not allow that.

Again back to the point. Reptiles use and seek a normally wide range of temps, and keepers try to average that to a handy medium. That is what happens. With snakes, you can achieve that. But not so with lizards. When you narrow the temperature range, you can failures from the immune system to the reproductive system. Then you must add to fix that, like using UV or vitamin suppliments, and calicum. And of course common use of antibiotics and other meds, to fix what any little variation causes. With a wide range of temps, that is not necessary.

When you consider what occurs in nature. Nature not only supports these reptiles, but supports them so well, it taxes them with parasites of all sorts. In nature, they live with parasites with no problems, yet, most keepers will lose their monitors if they have parasites. That in a nutshell, tells us, we are missing something.

By the way, I never treat for parasites, the monitors are fine. There is no need to. I could care if they have them or not.

To sum it up, what is the cost to allow temps ranging to above what they use? You know, instead of a 90F basking, what effort or cost is allowing 150F? Maybe, Twenty more watts per bulb?????? Is twenty more watts more costly then UV bulbs and suppliments and vet visits??????? wouldn't that cost be easily covered by all the extra babies they produce??

Is the problem the cost of the extra electricity or is it the loss of control. Do keepers HAVE to tell the animals what they are suppose to use. Isn't it better if we give them temps, both hotter and cooler and SEE what they pick. After all, nature always has hotter and cooler then what they use. I have a strong feeling that is what is required in their habitats, it must include an X amount of time, where the temps are above what they need. Or they cannot survive there.

I have to wonder about some humans problem solving abilities and control issues. Cheers

Let me just say I think Frank seems very knowledgable on all of these recent topics and would hesitate to go by his word.

I have recently been reading up on iguanas and I have come to believe that they have such different requirements they cannot be compared in this aspect to monitors. They have a strict vegetable and fruit diet that does not contain much calcium, where as monitors get most if not all their calcium from their rodent, etc., prey. My understanding is that UVB is very important for iguanas to get the correct amount of calcium in them, requiring a much better lighting system. I am in no means arguing against FR's post, this is just what my consensus is in terms of iguana light requirements.

The problem is, reptiles do not go by "concensus" They either do or they do not.

Some people use low temps and try to fix all manner of problems, with artificial manmade cures.

Or you can give them what they are designed for, and not have to deal with all those problems.

The reality is, its your choice. You can do stuff the hard way or the natural easy way.

Why you think you have to compare different reptiles is very odd, My point is, why not offer a choice and SEE what that species, that individual uses???? To me, that is the question. What harm is a few to many degrees, particularly when they can stay at cooler temps. THere is absolutely no harm.

Wait, the only harm is to the ego of the keepers. You know, the epiphany of finding out the animals knows more then you do.

Its common sense to me that these animals know more about themselves then we know about them. Heck, they do fine without us. And suffer with us. how easy is that? Cheers

It's true that iguanas do need UVB and it seems it is the only reptile that needs it. Even Tom Crutchfield keep his green iguana outside where they can come in contact with direct sunlight. I asked him about keeping iggy without the use of UVB light and he said the high heat slow the problem associated with lack of calcium, but he generally don't use the UVB light because he keeps his iggies outside in Florida, but if they were inside you would need one. Cycluras are a different story. I believe you can go without the UV light and choose to supplement instead, but the green iggies can't even use the oral supplement; they need direct sunlight.

While thats all fine and dandy, it does not explain why I did not have to use UV bulbs with iggies.

You do know when I started with monitors, everybody said monitors needed UV bulbs. They also needed to be hibernated to breed and they needed suppliments and Savs could not digest mice and died from eating them, etc etc etc.

The point is, I have no problem raising and successfully breeding all manner of reptiles by giving them a range of temps that reaches above what is thought they use. Funny huh? Cheers

i was reffering to air temps because most people i know dont own a tempgun and the temps i use and a hibernation period worked well for me to produce many clutches and healthy babies. o thought you had your animals outside so the could get direct sunlight or do you keep them inside away from direct sunlight ???

I am not sure what your talking about, you say you hibernated and recieved clutches, Of what? how many? how many generations? etc. You see, in order to gauge the quality of what your saying, we would have to compare RESULTS.

I raise ALL of our monitors indoors and only keep a few larger monitors outdoors in the summer. So most are hatched, live, breed on thru generations indoors.

The fact is, we do not see any difference what so ever between indoors and outdoors. We also have indoor/outdoor enclosures, but three years ago, we covered these with UV reflecting panels(they claim to reflect 99% of UVA&B. But then, we only have 6 of these type cages in service. Thanks

With all due respect to Tom as when it comes to Cyclura's he's the man. However drawing from my own experience When I lived in N.Y. I kept my Iguanas indoors most of the year(summer is 2 months if you're lucky) without uv lighting and they did fine. While it is true that they are outdoors here in Fl. it was several years before I got here. I honestly think diet is the biggest factor with Igunas and mbd and the temp thing runs a close second. Case in point (although not an Iguana) I was given a male mali uromastyx that was at death's door (here...you can have this if you want...I think it's going to die-actual quote.) I basically feed all my herbivores the same diet with a little variation for some red-foot torts and box turtles. other than that when I make up a salad it goes out to everbody. Anyway this mali has been kept inside due to it's condition in the hottest room in my house under a halogen light for basking (no uv-basking spot varies from about 117-150-1 or so depending on outside temps.) and you know what because I don't use calcium on the rest of the herbivoers as they are outside and I plan my diet to account for calcium I never ever thought about giving any to this guy either. He's recovered just fine (2yrs after I got him) and will be going outside this spring no uv no calcium just a good diet and lots of heat. BTW as per frank's advice on temps on this forum I started some baby waters in this room this last fall and they are growing like weeds at a much faster rate than any I have ever done before. Years ago if you'd have told me they need a basking spot in the 130-150 range I'd have thought you were crazy. I am amazed at how well it works. I've always been a little half-a**ed about basking temps on indoor herps (laziness about temps is a bad habit floridians often get into. with animals and eggs.) but I have learned to start paying better attention.