Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have a pair of 05 graybands that are about 30-32 inches. Is this big enough to breed? Is there a minimum weight to breed them? They have been in brumation since December 1st. Thanks

For a variety of reasons size is not the best way to determine reproductive fitness. Captivity provides for nutritional scenarios that would be wildly unnatural for wild alterna. As a rule of thumb I typically don't pair my animals until they're a little over three years old... sometimes over four. I may be the exception in that regard but have been privy to a multitude of benefits of approaching things that way.

did you have a control group? did you collect data? or have you just done things the way you thought to be best and have had what you consider to be good results? I ask because I have done things just the opposite as you with good results. I have not done actual studies, so my conclusions are just opinions based on non-scientific results. Respectfully, Rusty

Rusty,
I've done things both ways over the years... when I started, my youthful enthusiasm and desire for instant gratification led me to push animals. I grew them quickly and bred them early. I produced lots of animals that way. In the early years it seemed perfectly effective. It wasn't until later that the physiological manifestations of the ubercaloric rodent-homogenous diet started to show themselves. Kidney and liver distress, lipid build up, an increased propensity for respiratory distress plagued the individuals that were pushed. Those animals seem to sacrifice some of the physical resources that should have been used to lay down a solid physiological and skeletal foundation into weathering a reproductive bout. The misleading part of the equation is that the animals seem perfectly able to deal with overfeeding-related captive stresses for a number of years before things go south. For example, one of my first alerna (a generic Val Verde female) was raised to around 36" in two years. She bred well with no discernable effects on her fecundity or fertility for 3 years. Her fourth year showed a slight down trend, her fifth and sixth years were horrible, and she died at 8 having not produced at all in her 7th year. On the other hand, I currently have several females that I will have collected 15 years ago this year (one as a 30" adult). They've been maintained on a diet that's been the result of many years of trial-and-error efforts. Those females are highly fecund and highly fertile... still breeding and still producing viable offspring. Many of my hypotheses regarding captive maintenance of alterna have been arrived at through field observation. Wild female alterna do not seem to breed every year, they're smaller (it seems due to slow growth rather than youth) and you will never, ever, ever, see a wild alterna that looks like most of what I see posted in pictures on the web. Wild alterna are long and lanky with bodies designed to be able to contour to the surfaces of rough substrate. They have a cross section like a loaf of bread... flat venters with rounded backs. They're natural history dictates higher fitness in those conditions.

- They've been maintained on a diet that's been the result of many years of trial-and-error efforts.

I'm interested in what that diet consists of, along with frequency.

Thanks,

John

I would like to hear some input on this as well. I for one do not look at locality alterna breeders as competitors but more as partners working on that natural diversity... So to me there are not any real trade secrets

Lance
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Herp Conservation Unlimited

np

I have tried a bunch of stuff over the years. I went from purchasing commercially available mice to raising my own. I first fed the rodents lab block, then tried to raise them on a whole grain lower fat diet. I eventually suplemented the rodents' grain diet with insects captured in backyard pitfall traps. I then started supplementing the snake diet with lizards. Some even got/get 100% lizard diets. I've used general vitamin supplements and D3 supplements as well (both mixed with phosphorus and calcium and in pure liquid form). I've tried the various diets with WC animals, captive animals, and even captive late production (animals produced by females late in their reproductive lifetime) animals that showed some sort of minor (typically) congenital defects like undivided subcaudals, divided ventrals, or minor spinal deformities. Some results have been less than stellar. Some show promise. I currently get my rodents from a laboratory under contract to do Hanta Virus research. They breed both domestic mice and deer mice and raise them on lean grain-heavy insect supplemented diets. I supplement with lizards with my mice fed snakes and sometimes feed solely a lizard diet.

Things seem to be working... I've had several female that were trending towards lower fertility and fecundity rebound. For the first time this year I'll be able to attempt to breed an animal that hatched with more severe congenital issues (spinal deformity) in order to see if a better diet with liquid D3 supplementation may render her offspring healthy and normal.

Time will tell...

but I would not recomend you put those research mice in your mouth
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Herp Conservation Unlimited

All the research stuff is control group critters. No Hanta for me! LOL

(n/p)

I have never collected an alterna or a subocularis that did not defacate within a few days of capture. this leads me to believe that fit animals in their natural habitat feed regularly and probably grow at a reasonable rate in the wild. I'm curious to know how many other collectors of alterna and subocs have noticed the same thing? Rusty

I love to debate things with Damon, but he didn't expand on "multitude of benefits" so he really didn't leave any room for debate.

BUT, I don't think it's fair for us to compare wild snakes to captive snakes. In the wild the mission is to feed, avoid predation, and breed. Wild females are commonly found gravid at approx 24" in length and "not real big". In captivity the mission is for us to provide the means for a long, healthy, reproductive life. Or is the mission to breed the heck out of them and make as many babies as possible in the shortest amount of time?

Is the debate whether the two captive methods preclude each other?

I would be interested to see a study as well, but I am inclined to believe the "multitude of benefits" Damon is alluding to is "real" and not imagined. You gotta go with what you know, but I'm sure it doesn't hurt to wait an extra year on a female, and give them a year(s) off now and then.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
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Captive Bred Locality Matched Desert Kingsnakes

Rusty- In the abscence of such a study, I find it perfectly acceptable to rely on the collective experiences of many snake breeders. These guys, and I, see a correlation between age and ease of successful breeding. It can't be scoffed at. While you're right, scientific study is needed to disprove our hypothesis, until then it doesn't hurt to impart some down home good advice on a new guy.

DAN